Carmack console stuff begins leaking from Quakecon

The only problem with this argument is how Epic has to get help from Sony to get UE3 up to speed on the PS3, two years after their E3 demo of UT2K7; whereas id is demoing Rage on the PS3 running perfectly well...
That doesn't mean Epic isn't further ahead or more progressive. What's the big difference between ID hiring an ex-Sony, ex-Naughty Dog programmer and Sony sending programmers to optimize UE3? Anyhow, I can accept that because of his ideology, Carmack may have come to the party later than others, and that others have expended more time on the problem of multicore development.
 
The problem with UE3 is that it's been in development for a lot more time then Tech5; that UT3 is about to be released; that the engine has already been licenced to several studios who would have to deliver titles soon.

ID has just announced their game (with no release date), haven't licenced the engine at all, and still they already seem to have better results...
 
The problem with UE3 is that it's been in development for a lot more time then Tech5; that UT3 is about to be released; that the engine has already been licenced to several studios who would have to deliver titles soon.

ID has just announced their game (with no release date), haven't licenced the engine at all, and still they already seem to have better results...

Id:s tech5 engine wasn't finished just a tech demo of what it can deliver.

Theres still a long way to a finished game for Id..

The results should be better i guess than ue3 at the same point in development.
 
Finished or not, it was able to show off a working level from the game at 60fps, which makes its performance quite good. I wonder how many games cna run at that speed on the PS3 at all, seems like almost every developer is aiming for 30fps.
 
Finished or not, it was able to show off a working level from the game at 60fps, which makes its performance quite good. I wonder how many games cna run at that speed on the PS3 at all, seems like almost every developer is aiming for 30fps.
The stuff they showed its quite good, though it's not like on screen there's a lot of stuff going on at any given moment (and I thought I would have never said anything like that about Carmack's work..)
I'd like to see some direct feed..
 
Finished or not, it was able to show off a working level from the game at 60fps, which makes its performance quite good. I wonder how many games cna run at that speed on the PS3 at all, seems like almost every developer is aiming for 30fps.
Gears of War was running on a multicore architecture as of last year if not earlier, so Democoder is right in saying they're ahead of id on that front. As for id Tech 5's performance on PS3, it just means id had the foresight to hire someone with experience to optimize for the PS3 while Epic were busy making Gears of War and not caring about UE3. That said, UT3 is already running quite well on PS3(thanks to Sony) as evidenced by the E3 demo.
 
It's well known that one of Carmack's issues with the CPU archectures of this generation is the lack of out-of-order execution. This omission is, of course, directly related with the decision to go multi-core. I think it's certainly valid question whether the trade-off is worthwhile. OoO is a proven technology. The ability of programmers to leverage the potential of multiple cores in a game scenario is unknown.
The question we should ask to ourselves is "was it possible to launch, in the 2005/2006 time frame, cost effective next gen consoles able to compute between 100 and 200 gigaflops per second using OoOE cores?"
I think we all know the answer.
A properly programmed CELL will be able to spank (in single precision math) any PC out there for many many months to come, at a fraction of the cost you'd pay for a OoOE multicores capable of the same peak performance.
In a closed system where you can spend years understanding an architecture and improving your tech it makes a lot of sense to go without OoOE, it's simply the best bang for the bucks over a long time frame
 
The stuff they showed its quite good, though it's not like on screen there's a lot of stuff going on at any given moment (and I thought I would have never said anything like that about Carmack's work..)
I'd like to see some direct feed..

True, there wasn't a lot going on in the Rage demo. And as you know, 60 FPS is just an exercise in compromise. Carmack even makes it a point, in his keynote, to indicate that a game using the id Tech5 engine at 30 FPS would easily crush the visual appearance of a 60 FPS game - again no surprise there because it's just common sense. But, unless your developing a shooter, fighting, driving or sporting game (did I leave out any genres :) ) 30 FPS is good enough. Personally, I prefer the extra eye candy that 30 FPS provides.
 
Or maybe the PS3 isn't all the technological wonder you (were lead to) believe it to be?...

do you have evidence that point to the contrary?, i know for certain that you are not a developer and there are many developers out there that say so. So put yourself in my position, who would you rather believed? the many developers who suggest and shows what the PS3 is capable off ( Lair, GT5, MGS4, Drakes's Fortune, Ratchet and do i need to mention Killzone 2 and we must all remember this is the first generation PS3 titles) or an artist on a forum.

I dont know really, maybe your opinion differs from mine and those games i mentions are not technologically impressive to you and therefore you draw the conclusion that the PS3 isn't all the technologically wonder.
 
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True, there wasn't a lot going on in the Rage demo. And as you know, 60 FPS is just an exercise in compromise.
This is true for every game or technlogy, though we must admit that we don't see quite often that kind of graphics on screen running at 60 fps on current <next gen> consoles (oxymoron of the day!)
 
Finished or not, it was able to show off a working level from the game at 60fps, which makes its performance quite good. I wonder how many games cna run at that speed on the PS3 at all, seems like almost every developer is aiming for 30fps.

How about R&C, CoD4, GT5, MGS4, Wipeout HD etc. Is'nt Killzone 2 running at 60fps also? The trailer is encoded at it anyway.
 
How about R&C, CoD4, GT5, MGS4, Wipeout HD etc. Is'nt Killzone 2 running at 60fps also? The trailer is encoded at it anyway.

Yep, those are all excellent 60FPS games with the exception of Killzone - it's using too many effects to be 60 FPS.
 
do you have evidence that point to the contrary?, i know for certain that you are not a developer and there are many developers out there that say so. So put yourself in my position, who would you rather believed? the many developers who suggest and shows what the PS3 is capable off ( Lair, GT5, MGS4, Drakes's Fortune, Ratchet and do i need to mention Killzone 2 and we must all remember this is the first generation PS3 titles) or an artist on a forum.

Considering development time I would hardly call thoose games first generation titles. And remeber that several of the games you listed are scheduled to be released next year.

How about R&C, CoD4, GT5, MGS4, Wipeout HD etc. Is'nt Killzone 2 running at 60fps also? The trailer is encoded at it anyway.

KZ2 ran at 30fps at E3'07 with noticable slowdows. And nothing has even hinted about his game having 60fps as a target.
 
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Or maybe the PS3 isn't all the technological wonder you (were lead to) believe it to be?...

Im shure the Cell has quite some muscles to show but this all hype and talk reminds me of the EE hype and talk and well...
 
Gears of War was running on a multicore architecture as of last year if not earlier, so Democoder is right in saying they're ahead of id on that front.

id Tech 5 has been running on multi-core from day one, which would be at least two years ago if not more (i.e. after Doom 3's release three years ago). UE3 is a PC engine that had to be fitted onto the consoles and multi-core, whereas id Tech 5 has always been designed for cross platform and multi-core. So no, I don't think Epic has ever really been ahead as far as multi-core.
 
i know for certain that you are not a developer

How is that? Anyone disagreeing with "PS3 is teh king" is automatically not a developer, or what?

And good developers can do good things with subpar hardware too. The results don't neccessarily speak for the console.
 
How about R&C, CoD4, GT5, MGS4, Wipeout HD etc. Is'nt Killzone 2 running at 60fps also? The trailer is encoded at it anyway.

MGS isn't 60 fps. Wipeout has nowhere the kind of graphics.
KZ - there's no way they can run a deferred renderer at 60fps...
GT5 - no info available so far. Ratchet - no info again, I've never heard that it's 60fps.

Cod4 is another one, but that's it.
 
Is it that hard to give id some very well deserved credit for this? Especially after all the Carmack bashing, how he's just a whining PC developer who won't survive on consoles... And now he's just got rid of texture memory limitations as it seems, and on all platforms, once again changing something big in the industry.
 
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The question we should ask to ourselves is "was it possible to launch, in the 2005/2006 time frame, cost effective next gen consoles able to compute between 100 and 200 gigaflops per second using OoOE cores?"

Looking at the sales charts and market values of the three vendors, we might have to replace "possible" with "neccessary"...
 
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