Carmack console stuff begins leaking from Quakecon

Carmack himself suggests the program isn't parallelization, it's just the extra work needed to do it. So sure, for a few more years, you may get away with avoidance of concurrency or just use very coarse grained parallelism, but 10 years from now, you're going to have to do the work anyway.

So you better start learning now. This is an area where Sweeney is conceptually ahead. Sweeney has seen the writing on the wall and is seeking to build new languages and tools to make the work easier, whereas Carmack is still resisting change.

Why do you talk like Carmack is somehow side stepping the issue? He is no stranger to parallel programming, and so far id Tech 5 is running just fine on both consoles. Carmack is stating a blunt fact...multiple processors aren't as good as a single faster one. That doesn't mean id Software is still acting like that's what they have...it seems pretty clear that they've adapted much better than most developers (even Epic to be honest).
 
So you better start learning now. This is an area where Sweeney is conceptually ahead. Sweeney has seen the writing on the wall and is seeking to build new languages and tools to make the work easier, whereas Carmack is still resisting change.

Is there an area besides "making hype for his cowboy-code engine" where Sweeny is ahead of the competition?
I don't think so.
 
The problem with Carmack's argument is the days of super-scaling up the performance in single-threaded CPUs is over. Unless we fundamentally shift to something like RSFQ or rod-logic, I doubt we're going to see 10Ghz mega fast single threads. (Quantum computing also requires a paradigm shift in the programming technique)

Throughput oriented computing is our future now, massive numbers of threads, perhaps some assymetry for specialized blocks. GPUs are a classic example of massive threading.

That means if you want maximum performance in the future, you face a paradigm shift in the way you program, and must work to parallelize your algorithms as much as possible. (And if another person tries to bring up Amdahl's law again, they need to be slapped, because a) most of the time the so-called 'inherently serial' algorithms being claimed do in fact have parallel versions and b) most of the game engines aren't being limited by the inherently serial sections, but by the fact that the programmers have not made enough effort to parallelize.

Carmack himself suggests the program isn't parallelization, it's just the extra work needed to do it. So sure, for a few more years, you may get away with avoidance of concurrency or just use very coarse grained parallelism, but 10 years from now, you're going to have to do the work anyway.

So you better start learning now. This is an area where Sweeney is conceptually ahead. Sweeney has seen the writing on the wall and is seeking to build new languages and tools to make the work easier, whereas Carmack is still resisting change.

John Carmack said:
Multicore architecture is inevitable but not desirable. "There are no benefits" to multicore architecture; much better to have a theoretical incredibly powerful single processor. However, that is not practical unfortunately. With 8 processors or less, you will do course grain parallelization and assign different processors to different tasks--but beyond that number, you have to start looking at it more like one big sea of processors, which requires a totally different attitude to programming. Introduces difficulties for game development. However, game development will "rocket past" more traditional research into parallel processing.

Game Informer: When we interviewed you at CES this year, and QuakeCon two years ago you weren’t too thrilled with developing for multicore systems. Obviously now, that’s the case across all platforms. Were you kind of at the point with id Tech 5 where, you said, “We give in?â€￾

John Carmack: You have to take advantage of what’s on the table.



Seems like more of a preference than him being resistant. Im pretty sure hes well aware of the CPU roadmap a ways out and is developing this tech accordingly.
 
Argh...internet discussions! Aren't you really splitting hairs here and at the same time missing the bigger point I was trying to get at. Anyway I think you've already answered my question,I'm going to to walk away before I pull more hair out.
Edit:
Am I the only one who sees what seems like a contradiction in the two statements"Our engine will make cross platform development easy to produce the same results" and "we hired a special PS3 programmer to optimize the PS3 code"?

Edit.Edit.
What is a game engine besides code? And if this ps3 guy is involved in creating optimized code,is he not contributing to the development of the engine?

The reason why cross platform development is made easier with the id Tech 5 engine is because of the programming and performance abstraction of the graphic engine. This allows a multiplatform developer to port the graphic engine portion more easily and with relatively the same performance benchmarks as the platform it was ported from. But, in order to achieve this level of performance abstraction, the PS3 and 360 engines must be independently optimized to achieve these benchmarks.
 
Consoles won't rely on digital distribution for games any time soon.

They have to depend on brick and mortar to distribute consoles.

But consoles don't make any money for retailers, who make their margins on the games themselves.

Take away games from retailers and what incentive do they have to carry consoles?


Oh I guess they could increase margins on consoles. That means consumers pay higher prices for the hardware, which you figure will be expensive to begin with if it has to have a lot of storage for digital distribution.

They'd have to cut prices on games then, significantly.

Do you see publishers doing that?
 
if you look around and draw the curves the future is on the wall:the current business model of the industry is not acceptable in the future.

The cost of the consoles are higher and higher,and the price of the games follow it .Parallel it on the console you have to pay for an experience that is free on the pc platform.

From the other side,if there is no software,only hardware,the current video game shop network will disappear,and in the electronics shops you will found a new area next to the dvd players.
 
Consoles won't rely on digital distribution for games any time soon.

They have to depend on brick and mortar to distribute consoles.

But consoles don't make any money for retailers, who make their margins on the games themselves.

Take away games from retailers and what incentive do they have to carry consoles?


Oh I guess they could increase margins on consoles. That means consumers pay higher prices for the hardware, which you figure will be expensive to begin with if it has to have a lot of storage for digital distribution.

They'd have to cut prices on games then, significantly.

Do you see publishers doing that?

Digital Distribution is the future for gaming. For PC's it's already happening. Look at steam. Look at the popularity of Xbox Live marketplace. Infact Sony is coming out with PS3 games available for download from day one! So yes, kick or scream, it's going to happen. If the Xbox 3 and PS4 even have an optical drive, I'd be shocked.

For publishers, what's the big deal? Now they don't have to pay replication and packaging costs or discounts for the retailers for shelf space. Thus they can make more per title.

For me, I'm all for it. Why swap discs when I can just turn on my console and all my games are right there for me to play.
 
So you better start learning now. This is an area where Sweeney is conceptually ahead. Sweeney has seen the writing on the wall and is seeking to build new languages and tools to make the work easier, whereas Carmack is still resisting change.

The only problem with this argument is how Epic has to get help from Sony to get UE3 up to speed on the PS3, two years after their E3 demo of UT2K7; whereas id is demoing Rage on the PS3 running perfectly well...
 
For a guy who is best known for pushing technology to their limits such as John Carmack, he should be fascinated with the PS3 design even though is it hard to program initially but as he mentioned it was not as bad as the ps2, so in the future i want to see this guy pushing the PS3 to its limits especially the Cell processor.

Or maybe the PS3 isn't all the technological wonder you (were lead to) believe it to be?...
 
The only problem with this argument is how Epic has to get help from Sony to get UE3 up to speed on the PS3, two years after their E3 demo of UT2K7; whereas id is demoing Rage on the PS3 running perfectly well...

That is a actually a good point. I remember how they said E3'05 how it took them ~2months to port the UT2K7 (UT3) demo to the PS3 and that it ran at ~45fps according to them. Although if I remember it right it was a Cell with 2x6800x (or perhaps 1x7800x GPU).
Now they are having problems while Id is showing a engine which runs good on the PS3 with great graphics. :???:
 
Single core vs multicore

Very simply, now matter how fast a single core is, you can gang up N of them and get something ~N times faster. Carmack gripes about multicore as if it's a hack, when it's as legitimate a strategy for achieving ever higher compute power as any other.
 
The only problem with this argument is how Epic has to get help from Sony to get UE3 up to speed on the PS3, two years after their E3 demo of UT2K7; whereas id is demoing Rage on the PS3 running perfectly well...


Yes.



Also the ID Tech 5 engine runs @ 60 FPS on the PS3 while UT2k7 will run at 30. Maybe in time EPIC will get the Unreal engine to run faster.



On top of that ID went out and hired one of the lead programmers from Naughty Dog/Sony just to make sure the engine runs well and takes full advantage of the hardware on the PS3 platform.
 
That is a actually a good point. I remember how they said E3'05 how it took them ~2months to port the UT2K7 (UT3) demo to the PS3 and that it ran at ~45fps according to them. Although if I remember it right it was a Cell with 2x6800x (or perhaps 1x7800x GPU).
Now they are having problems while Id is showing a engine which runs good on the PS3 with great graphics. :???:
Well, they were still only using the PPU back then.

Edit:

"We haven't really delved into the Cell all that deeply yet. All we've done is mostly take advantage of just the normal PowerPC core and the RSX graphics, so we really look forward to getting home and tackling all kinds of cool stuff on the Cell."

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/2005/05/20/news_6126181.html
 
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Very simply, now matter how fast a single core is, you can gang up N of them and get something ~N times faster.

You can not.
N cores will always be slower than an N times as fast single core. That is kinda fundamental in multiprocessing.
 
In retrospect I think we can question the extent of that E3 2005 demo. It might have been a simple tech demo with no gameplay at all...
 
Very simply, now matter how fast a single core is, you can gang up N of them and get something ~N times faster. Carmack gripes about multicore as if it's a hack, when it's as legitimate a strategy for achieving ever higher compute power as any other.

It's well known that one of Carmack's issues with the CPU archectures of this generation is the lack of out-of-order execution. This omission is, of course, directly related with the decision to go multi-core. I think it's certainly valid question whether the trade-off is worthwhile. OoO is a proven technology. The ability of programmers to leverage the potential of multiple cores in a game scenario is unknown.
 
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