CA AIDS fundings cut

John Reynolds said:
Actions, obviously. I can't judge Kerry's actions as president because he obviously hasn't performed that roll yet.
Im using his track record of cutting defense and intelligence budgets to suggest that he would be the type of president Osama would love to have. Simple as that. Since actions are more important I guess you agree with me now? :devilish:

later,
epic
 
John Reynolds said:
Joe DeFuria said:
No, the opinion that he should moderate his position is just that, an opinion. And is nothing close to being a worse indictment than being a liar, or not having any principals upon which decisions are made. The point is, John here is going off about how I can actually believe that Bush is a principled and honest leader...when even this liberal editorial agrees.

Anti-bush = automatic labelling as liberal editorial. :devilish:

* 3 pointer at the buzzer. Swish! He scores!

John Reynolds said:
I think the author was making the point that Natoma stressed. And a little digging into the Bush family connections and business dealings quickly dispels the farcical myth of Dubya as a man of honesty and principals. I truly believe his administration is going to give Taft's a run for its money in the history books as to which was more corrupt. Though I give Bush's the nod for being the most brazen about it. But that's what high-handed principles and fundie self-righteousness gives you. . .peace of mind in the face of blatant, unethical behavior.

Watch it John, or you'll be labeled an enemy combatant as well as anti-bush and bush hater. Then what will you do. ;)
 
John Reynolds said:
Anti-bush = automatic labelling as liberal editorial. :devilish:

Isn't it though? Aren't you the one who labeled Bush as a "neo-con" (though failed to define it when asked). Wouldn't that make someone who's anti-bush, anti-neo con, and therefore liberal?

Please, don't tell me things aren't quite that black and white. :rolleyes:

I think the author was making the point that Natoma stressed. And a little digging into the Bush family connections and business dealings quickly dispels the farcical myth of Dubya as a man of honesty and principals.

Yes, because a little digging by those with an agenda will give you an accurate representation of the man.
 
epicstruggle said:
Im using his track record of cutting defense and intelligence budgets to suggest that he would be the type of president Osama would love to have. Simple as that. Since actions are more important I guess you agree with me now? :devilish:

The entire government cut intelligence and defense budgets throughout the '90s. That was before 9/11. What do you think Bush's voting record would've been radically different? If he had any sort of record we could look at and cast judgement on, that is.

Do you not understand how wrong it is to declare war on terrorism and then pick 'n choose which nations to go after? The Bush family has a history of business dealings with the Saudi royal family, the Saudis have clearly been one of the major supporters of terrorist organizatoins, and yet the Bush administration does nothing!!!!!!!!! I would think that sort of BS double-standard would cut through any and all partisan bias and make every American sit up and ask why. Bush went after Saddam, a secular, though dictatorial, leader with little to no evidence of a relationship on his part with terrorist organizations, and then turns around and gives the Saudis a free pass. Why?!
 
Joe DeFuria said:
John Reynolds said:
Anti-bush = automatic labelling as liberal editorial. :devilish:

Isn't it though? Aren't you the one who labeled Bush as a "neo-con" (though failed to define it when asked). Wouldn't that make someone who's anti-bush, anti-neo con, and therefore liberal?

Please, don't tell me things aren't quite that black and white. :rolleyes:

Pat Buchanan. He has railed, far more effectively than democrats actually, very strongly against President Bush's handling of the economy and the war against terrorism. He's definitely anti-neo con. But I wouldn't call him a liberal. ;)

Oh, and if you missed it:

Natoma said:
You do realize that "Bush Bashing" is occurring in the Republican party as well right? Fiscal Conservatives in the party are certainly not happy with him, and those with a more libertarian streak (lets not even talk about the log cabin republicans which number about 1 million strong) in them are definitely not happy with his proposal for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriages.

It's not all peaches and cream in the republican party, so I guess you should bring up republicans along with democrats and left wingers in the "Bush Bashers" label. ;)
 
John Reynolds said:
epicstruggle said:
Im using his track record of cutting defense and intelligence budgets to suggest that he would be the type of president Osama would love to have. Simple as that. Since actions are more important I guess you agree with me now? :devilish:

The entire government cut intelligence and defense budgets throughout the '90s. That was before 9/11. What do you think Bush's voting record would've been radically different? If he had any sort of record we could look at and cast judgement on, that is.

Do you not understand how wrong it is to declare war on terrorism and then pick 'n choose which nations to go after? The Bush family has a history of business dealings with the Saudi royal family, the Saudis have clearly been one of the major supporters of terrorist organizatoins, and yet the Bush administration does nothing!!!!!!!!! I would think that sort of BS double-standard would cut through any and all partisan bias and make every American sit up and ask why. Bush went after Saddam, a secular, though dictatorial, leader with little to no evidence of a relationship on his part with terrorist organizations, and then turns around and gives the Saudis a free pass. Why?!
And you know he has done nothing, how?? For all you know most if not all of the princes have been taken care of who have supported OBL. If memory serves me right 3 in particular have died under "interesting" conditions. We have not given the Saudis a free pass, unfortunatly there are worse people in that area. And sometimes we have to sleep with unsavory people. Thats why having a free and democratic Iraq will be a boom for the US. IF we can only get the Isralies to work out a peace deal with the palestiniens we would have achieved more than clinton did during his admin.

You only see a very polarized world, take off those glasses and see that the world isnt so black&white. Quit being such a bush-basher. This country is unbelieveably more secure than before Bush took office. If you cant see that maybe you've got blinders on.

later,
epic
 
John Reynolds said:
Do you not understand how wrong it is to declare war on terrorism and then pick 'n choose which nations to go after?

Oh...because we can just go after them all at once, is that it?!
Good grief....
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Isn't it though? Aren't you the one who labeled Bush as a "neo-con" (though failed to define it when asked). Wouldn't that make someone who's anti-bush, anti-neo con, and therefore liberal?

Not at all.

Please, don't tell me things aren't quite that black and white. :rolleyes:

Joe, please grow up enough to not feel compelled to use the rollseyes emoticon in every other post. Thanks.

Yes, because a little digging by those with an agenda will give you an accurate representation of the man.

Of course there must be some nefarious agenda. Bush is the 2nd coming of Christ. When a BBC reporter investigated that the Bush administration had actively blocked our intelligence community from investigating the Saudi royal family and their connections with not just bin Laden but also other terrorist leaders and organizations pre-9/11, he won the CSU School of Journalism's Project Censored Aware in 2002, an award given to stories banned from the US media.

Of course you probably didn't know that. You're too busy holding Dubya up as a man of principles. But where does our government's policy begin and the Bush family business connections end?

For the record, protecting the Saudis isn't indigenous to just the Bush's. A Saudi diplomatic defected to the US in '94 with quite a bit of evidence indicating that the Saudis were giving Saddam billions to help him build a nuke. Clinton gave the diplomat asylum but also denied the FBI or CIA access to those documents. Nice, huh?

And why aren't our journalists investigating any of this? As Dan Rather said, "It's an obscene comparison, but there was a time in South Africa when people would put flaming tires around people's necks if they dissented. In some ways, the fear is that you will be neck-laced here, you will have a flaming tire of lack of patriotism put around your neck."
 
Natoma said:
Pat Buchanan....

Whoossh....the sound of the ball going completely over Natoma's head.

(Hint: I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what defines a neo-con, and why Bush is one, while at the same time explain some of his more liberal positions on things like the Campaign Finance, Education, Medicare benefits, etc...)
 
John Reynolds said:
And why aren't our journalists investigating any of this? As Dan Rather said, "It's an obscene comparison, but there was a time in South Africa when people would put flaming tires around people's necks if they dissented. In some ways, the fear is that you will be neck-laced here, you will have a flaming tire of lack of patriotism put around your neck."

Nah...it couldn't be because they actually can't make report on it with an ounce of credibility perhaps? Give me a break...Dan Rather or any other "prime time" reporter would give his left eye to report on this...assuming it could be reported on credibly. The fact they didn't just shows how NON Credible the information is....THEY won't even touch it.
 
epicstruggle said:
And you know he has done nothing, how?? For all you know most if not all of the princes have been taken care of who have supported OBL. If memory serves me right 3 in particular have died under "interesting" conditions. We have not given the Saudis a free pass, unfortunatly there are worse people in that area.

And I suspect that's the Saudis taking care of their own business, cleaning up loose ends themselves, than Dubya ordering CIA hits on them.

You only see a very polarized world, take off those glasses and see that the world isnt so black&white. Quit being such a bush-basher. This country is unbelieveably more secure than before Bush took office. If you cant see that maybe you've got blinders on.

That is about 180 degrees wrong. I'm not the one buying into the laughable myth of Dubya being a strong principled leader trodding down the right, correct path. You don't see me holding up Clinton or Kerry or other Democratic party leaders as great contrasts to the right wingers do you? And how are we safer with so much of our military might tied down in Iraq? How are we better off pouring 100s of billions into that nation, a nation whose previous leader did not possess WMD or ties to terrorist organizations? We might've as well invaded Britain. . .it would've been as effective a blow against *terror* as what we've done in Iraq. Are shall we simplistically assume that geographic and ethnic proximity equates to terrorism? As my right wing, fundie co-worker said a few weeks ago: "We need to wipe the entire Middle East out, kill them all: man, woman and child." Now that is having blinders on.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Natoma said:
Pat Buchanan....

Whoossh....the sound of the ball going completely over Natoma's head.

(Hint: I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what defines a neo-con, and why Bush is one, while at the same time explain some of his more liberal positions on things like the Campaign Finance, Education, Medicare benefits, etc...)

It didn't go over my head at all. ;)

Neocons are defined by their foreign policy beliefs. The main proponents in the administration are Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld, and Dick Cheney, who, it should be noted, have foreign policy views expressed and enacted by the President.
 
epicstruggle said:
Here is a question George Will would like Kerry to answer for:
In 1994, the year after the first attack on the World Trade Center, you voted to cut $1 billion from counterterrorism activities. In 1995, you proposed a $1.5 billion cut in intelligence funding. Are you now glad that both proposals were defeated?
http://www.suntimes.com/output/will/cst-edt-geo15.html

later,
epic

Yep. Those votes are definitely fair game. But as I pointed out earlier, the broad stroke that if you vote against missile defense or other military technologies, that you're somehow weak on defense doesn't fly with me either. That's what the re-elect bush campaign is trying to do.
 
Natoma said:
Yep. Those votes are definitely fair game. But as I pointed out earlier, the broad stroke that if you vote against missile defense or other military technologies, that you're somehow weak on defense doesn't fly with me either. That's what the re-elect bush campaign is trying to do.

Agreed. When 9/11 happened I heard military officers vehemently cursing Clinton-era cuts to our intelligence community. But it's part of the American arrogance too. . .we thought we were unassailable.
 
John Reynolds said:
The entire government cut intelligence and defense budgets throughout the '90s. That was before 9/11. What do you think Bush's voting record would've been radically different? If he had any sort of record we could look at and cast judgement on, that is.

What about Bush pre-9/11? Forget about that John?

Last I checked, Bush was proposing raises in Defense Spending and upon appointing Donald Rumsfeld, had his administration embark on a forward looking program to identify threats in the future and dramatically retool the US Military Machine for the low-intensity conflict they envisioned. They then proposed after a concensus was reached that the United States would skip the next generation of weapons which are basically the last of the Cold-War big-budget, massive high-ingtensity conflict weapons and devote 20% of the budget to these ends. He also proposed to increase defense research by $20 billion concurrently with tax incentives for bleeding-edge technology adoption.

The Bush Administration was and is among the more forward looking visionaries as per defense spending and targeting the future of conflict. From their high-tech bias to the cutting of legacy equipment and their shift to rapid-reaction forces under an Intercontinental Shield - they saw the threats (low-intensity/Korean Pen.) and made the right choices. They are diametrically opposed to Kerry in that they have a clue.


John Reynolds said:
Do you not understand how wrong it is to declare war on terrorism and then pick 'n choose which nations to go after? The Bush family has a history of business dealings with the Saudi royal family, the Saudis have clearly been one of the major supporters of terrorist organizatoins, and yet the Bush administration does nothing!!!!!!!!! I would think that sort of BS double-standard would cut through any and all partisan bias and make every American sit up and ask why. Bush went after Saddam, a secular, though dictatorial, leader with little to no evidence of a relationship on his part with terrorist organizations, and then turns around and gives the Saudis a free pass. Why?!

Because, IMHO it's apparent that their reasoning is much deeper than you can comprehend. I'm sorry, but it's the truth. Hell, I don't believe I'll ever see the entire range of influences and options - but it's alot better than your college-liberal-rambling-while-smoking-some-pot mentality.

As I stated before the war when arguing with Natoma (perhaps?!), the administration found themselves in a different world on Sept 12th. Different in that the idle threats of Al-Qaeda materialized in the very real deaths of 2,000 Americans, the problem them emerged of eradicating this organization which had become a virtual state that transcended political boundaries, united under a common ideology and hate of the West. It's the contemporary version of the nemesis which haunts all world superpowers our civilization has produced; death from asymmetric, dispersed, omnipresent forces (be them militarily, political or otherwise).

The very nature of a superpower make this intrinsic, it’s inescapable. Surviving as a superpower necessitates a level of freedom, the creation of freedom necessitated power, power is dispersed in tight concentrations. Ergo the emergent problem of asymmetric threats. The Roman Republic/Empire saw an analogous occurrence with the downfall of the Julio-Claudian System in which it progressively lost its client states (that were under loose cultural control) that served as physical and ideological buffers against the world and threats around it. All superpowers are too large (be it physically or virtually) to guard all levels of it’s society from attack and this became an immeasurable loss which ultimately required that Roman Imperial forces must guard against all threats, invasions, incursions, insurrections – where aspreviously the clients would handle such low-intensity threats. As I said before, no superpower can do this – and they eventually suffered many incursions which brought the former republic to it’s knees.

Today’s situation is vastly different in tangible ways, but it shares a deep connection in the threat and relative position. What was once a Roman Imperial boundary is now an American virtual one, a democratic one. We live in a time of instant communication, the ability to be anywhere in the world in a day, the ability to destroy an urban centre in an instant. But, the fundamental intangible remains – there is an ideological difference underlying this and there is where the solution lies.

So, work backwards from the Roman’s. Create a contemporary client state in the Middle East which will serve the purpose Cappadocia once did, but in a virtual way. Walls are futile, standing armies are futile. This is a war over populace, ideology… emotion.
So, pander exactly to that, create a free nation-state in the Middle East, one which is educated, prosperous, forward-looking and yet manageable. It’s effect will (and as we’ve seen in Iraq) serve as a virtual buffer, appealing to the human emotion and draw the ideological enemy in to fight as opposed to a world away in the United States.

The Short-term effects are exactly as I stated, to act as a buffer. We’ve seen it in effect; we’re seeing it become a battleground removed from the continental United States. There are also strong psychological effects of the shift from a war on the Americans, who it’s acceptable to kill, and your theological and cultural brothers.

This will manifest itself in the long-term by reinforcing the ultimate goal of democratization of the ME. It’s going to happen, as the 20th century has shown,
freedom is intoxicating and where there is a seed – a fanatical regime will fall given time.

The Saudi’s are insignificant fools in the long-term. They’re homeland is off-limits to military moves by a western power due to ideological and theological meaning. They’re a perfect case of geopolitics and why Iraq was the best choice. Saudi is a country on the edge due to its significance for much of the region, much better to let it sort itself out. Iraq on the other hand was a horrible regime, one which tried to Assassinate an American president, inflamed the Israeli-Palestinian issue by financing terrorists, had WMD and led the world to believe they were a threat at the least, they had connections to Al-Qaeda, and they have a stable country, educated middle class and working infrastructure oppressed under an asshole leader.

Why Iraq? Because it’s the key to American security in the 21st century. As I said before, the creation of the Iraqi Client State will be the greatest American achievement since the Monroe Doctrine.
 
John Reynolds said:
Agreed. When 9/11 happened I heard military officers vehemently cursing Clinton-era cuts to our intelligence community. But it's part of the American arrogance too. . .we thought we were unassailable.

And is it not John Kerry whose harking back to said "arrogance" when he claims that the war on terrorism is:

John Kerry to Tom Brokaw said:
‘primarily an intelligence and law enforcement operation"

Which others correctly summed up as:

[url=http://maroon.uchicago.edu/viewpoints/articles/2004/02/27/an_image_of_america_.php said:
Link[/url]]Consider John Kerry’s comment that combating terrorism is foremost a law enforcement issue. This is how Bill Clinton, and to be fair pre-9/11 George W. Bush, treated terrorism, all while al Qaeda was perpetrating increasingly bold attacks and the U.S. was taking no serious action to disrupt their plans.
 
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