CA AIDS fundings cut

Natoma said:
Joe the reason the unemployment rate has fallen is because millions of people have left the workforce, not because people are all of a sudden snapping up jobs.

Left what workforce...and are they self-employed now?

Not with the situation as it is today. It's too much of a lightning rod for Bush, because he is decidedly weak there, in terms of the prosecution of the war. And it opens him up to the WMD attack again, which you know the dems will pounce on if given the chance.

And here is the difference between Pro-Bush and Anti-Bush. I don't think he's decidedly weak there. Democrats claim that he's weak. Of course they'll pounce as they always do...irrespective of taking an objective look at the situation. They'll pounce on any negative aspect, and then dismiss positive aspects as "lies".
 
Joe DeFuria said:
And here is the difference between Pro-Bush and Anti-Bush. I don't think he's decidedly weak there. Democrats claim that he's weak. Of course they'll pounce as they always do...irrespective of taking an objective look at the situation. They'll pounce on any negative aspect, and then dismiss positive aspects as "lies".

Blah blah, more partisan bias. The freakin' Republicans would do the same thing against a Democratic incumbent. The left hardly owns the franchise on dirty politics.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Natoma said:
Joe the reason the unemployment rate has fallen is because millions of people have left the workforce, not because people are all of a sudden snapping up jobs.

Left what workforce...and are they self-employed now?

The Department of Labor doesn't consider you part of the workforce if you no longer receive unemployment benefits and you are also not actively searching for a job, but are unemployed. Here's an example:

1) Someone who works X # of hours a week is considered employed.
2) Someone who is laid off but is searching for a job or is receiving unemployment benefits is considered unemployed.
3) Someone who is neither working nor searching for a job nor receiving unemployment benefits (Homemaker for example, or college student), is not considered part of the workforce.

That's the main reason why the unemployment % dropped from 6.4% to 5.7% in 2003. A net loss of 50K jobs in 2003 could not have accounted for that % drop at all. However, those who stopped searching for jobs and also fell off the unemployment benefit rolls increased roughly 400K.

Joe DeFuria said:
Not with the situation as it is today. It's too much of a lightning rod for Bush, because he is decidedly weak there, in terms of the prosecution of the war. And it opens him up to the WMD attack again, which you know the dems will pounce on if given the chance.

And here is the difference between Pro-Bush and Anti-Bush. I don't think he's decidedly weak there. Democrats claim that he's weak. Of course they'll pounce as they always do...irrespective of taking an objective look at the situation. They'll pounce on any negative aspect, and then dismiss positive aspects as "lies".

We didn't send enough troops to Iraq to maintain control over the country, despite the protestations of generals in the pentagon who vehemently disagreed with Rumsfeld's light force war plans. We went into Iraq to find WMD, none were there. We went to Iraq to snuff out terrorists, none were there.

There are palpable, non-negative, platforms to use to criticize the president. These are facts that are on record, so it's not necessarily "Anti-Bush" as you say.

And please, Republicans pounce as much as Democrats do. So don't play it off as if you're so injured by politics as usual. ;)
 
Natoma said:
That's the main reason why the unemployment % dropped from 6.4% to 5.7% in 2003. A net loss of 50K jobs in 2003 could not have accounted for that % drop at all. However, those who stopped searching for jobs increased roughly 400K. If you measure the number of unemployed americans, it is actually the % is actually 9.7%. But the Department of Labor doesn't count like that. Lord knows why.

Because it has no way to track self-employed folks. Those not on a payroll...and also just because you lose a job, doesn't mean you want another one. (For exanple, my Aunt lost her job as a direct result of 9/11. She was on unemployment for a while, and then decided to go into business for herself - digital photography / imaging.) She's no longer unemployed...but she is someone you would count in the 9-10% figure as unemployed.

We didn't send enough troops to Iraq to maintain control over the country

Says who?

The more troops we send, the more "targets" we have for the pockets of resistance. Sending MORE troops in isn't a win-win situation. You need to strike a balance. I'm certainly not convinced that more troops would be better. I mean, there are spats of violence every day. Some involving U.S. troops, some involving Iraqis...but do you really think there is no control?


And please, Republicans pounce as much as Democrats do. So don't play it off as if you're so injured by politics as usual. ;)

Oh...it's coming. I never said it wouldn't. But this 9/11 ad isn't one of them.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Natoma said:
That's the main reason why the unemployment % dropped from 6.4% to 5.7% in 2003. A net loss of 50K jobs in 2003 could not have accounted for that % drop at all. However, those who stopped searching for jobs increased roughly 400K. If you measure the number of unemployed americans, it is actually the % is actually 9.7%. But the Department of Labor doesn't count like that. Lord knows why.

Because it has no way to track self-employed folks. Those not on a payroll...and also just because you lose a job, doesn't mean you want another one. (For exanple, my Aunt lost her job as a direct result of 9/11. She was on unemployment for a while, and then decided to go into business for herself - digital photography / imaging.) She's no longer unemployed...but she is someone you would count in the 9-10% figure as unemployed.

I edited my post. The Department of Labor contacts 60,000 households in order to make their labor force determinations, so self employed people are in fact considered employed.

Natoma said:
The Department of Labor doesn't consider you part of the workforce if you no longer receive unemployment benefits and you are also not actively searching for a job, but are unemployed. Here's an example:

1) Someone who works X # of hours a week is considered employed.
2) Someone who is laid off but is searching for a job or is receiving unemployment benefits is considered unemployed.
3) Someone who is neither working nor searching for a job nor receiving unemployment benefits (Homemaker for example, or college student), is not considered part of the workforce.

That's the main reason why the unemployment % dropped from 6.4% to 5.7% in 2003. A net loss of 50K jobs in 2003 could not have accounted for that % drop at all. However, those who stopped searching for jobs and also fell off the unemployment benefit rolls increased roughly 400K.

Joe DeFuria said:
We didn't send enough troops to Iraq to maintain control over the country

Says who?

Says many pentagon officials who felt we needed a force of 300K troops to control the nation. Rumsfeld disagreed and believed we only needed 130K troops. This of course has been proven drastically incorrect by the lack of control we actually have over the country today.

Joe DeFuria said:
The more troops we send, the more "targets" we have for the pockets of resistance. Sending MORE troops in isn't a win-win situation. You need to strike a balance. I'm certainly not convinced that more troops would be better. I mean, there are spats of violence every day. Some involving U.S. troops, some involving Iraqis...but do you really think there is no control?

The reason pockets of resistance weren't stamped out quickly and in fact became stronger thanks to Al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations entering Iraq en masse is because we didn't have the troop strength to do it. The situation on the ground now is unstable, but it wasn't that way in the first few weeks and months after "official combat" was declared over by the President.

Joe DeFuria said:
And please, Republicans pounce as much as Democrats do. So don't play it off as if you're so injured by politics as usual. ;)

Oh...it's coming. I never said it wouldn't. But this 9/11 ad isn't one of them.

No one said it was. Just said it was in poor taste.
 
John Reynolds said:
He was obviously crazy enough to plan such an attack while Bush was in office so I'm not sure he really cares.
You are showing your _extreme_ Anti-Bush bias here. The plans for 9/11 were at least 5 years old. But I guess to you, OBL got up one day, bush was president, and he threw everything together willy nilly. :rolleyes: You claim to be a moderate, but I cant help but see a partisian in sheeps clothing.

Please answer a previous questions I asked you:
epicstruggle said:
JR, Im using Kerry's track record to draw conclusions as to what he might do in the future. Where am I going wrong?
later,
epic
 
epicstruggle said:
You are showing your _extreme_ Anti-Bush bias here. The plans for 9/11 were at least 5 years old. But I guess to you, OBL got up one day, bush was president, and he threw everything together willy nilly. :rolleyes: You claim to be a moderate, but I cant help but see a partisian in sheeps clothing.

Please answer a previous questions I asked you:
epicstruggle said:
JR, Im using Kerry's track record to draw conclusions as to what he might do in the future. Where am I going wrong?
later,
epic

And Bush's presence in the White House obviously didn't deter him from executing the plan, now did it? That was sorta my point.

And being anti-Bush doesn't make me a left winger. That's the mistake you and Joe keep making by constantly bringing up the Democrats and left wingers with me.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2004_0227.html

Whether he sticks to it or not, but here's one of these wimpy Democrats who wants to increase the Army by 40,000 people? Stop playing nice with Saudi Arabia? Expand the Nunn-Lugar program (that Bush has been cutting) that makes sure WMD in the former Soviet Union doesn't get into bad people's hand? And, perhaps most importantly:

To do all this, and to do our best, demands that we work with other countries instead of walking alone. For today the agents of terrorism work and lurk in the shadows of 60 nations on every continent. In this entangled world, we need to build real and enduring alliances.
 
John Reynolds said:
And being anti-Bush doesn't make me a left winger. That's the mistake you and Joe keep making by constantly bringing up the Democrats and left wingers with me.

Pssst...John...I bring up "democrats" wrt to Bush Bashing, because you are no different than them in this respect.
 
John Reynolds said:
epicstruggle said:
You are showing your _extreme_ Anti-Bush bias here. The plans for 9/11 were at least 5 years old. But I guess to you, OBL got up one day, bush was president, and he threw everything together willy nilly. :rolleyes: You claim to be a moderate, but I cant help but see a partisian in sheeps clothing.

Please answer a previous questions I asked you:
epicstruggle said:
JR, Im using Kerry's track record to draw conclusions as to what he might do in the future. Where am I going wrong?
later,
epic

And Bush's presence in the White House obviously didn't deter him from executing the plan, now did it? That was sorta my point.
Bush has/is a different president than before 9/11. The option is between Bush of today and kerry.
And being anti-Bush doesn't make me a left winger. That's the mistake you and Joe keep making by constantly bringing up the Democrats and left wingers with me.
Are you delusional?? Where have I said that you were a democrat, or for that matter a left winger. You can have an anti-bush extremist bias and not be either a democrat or a left winger
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2004_0227.html

Whether he sticks to it or not, but here's one of these wimpy Democrats who wants to increase the Army by 40,000 people? Stop playing nice with Saudi Arabia? Expand the Nunn-Lugar program (that Bush has been cutting) that makes sure WMD in the former Soviet Union doesn't get into bad people's hand? And, perhaps most importantly:

To do all this, and to do our best, demands that we work with other countries instead of walking alone. For today the agents of terrorism work and lurk in the shadows of 60 nations on every continent. In this entangled world, we need to build real and enduring alliances.
So I should believe what he(kerry) is saying and not what he has done. Ok so from now on you should believe what bush says and not what he has done either. Only fair thing to do, right??

later,
epic
 
Joe DeFuria said:
John Reynolds said:
And being anti-Bush doesn't make me a left winger. That's the mistake you and Joe keep making by constantly bringing up the Democrats and left wingers with me.

Pssst...John...I bring up "democrats" wrt to Bush Bashing, because you are no different than them in this respect.

You do realize that "Bush Bashing" is occurring in the Republican party as well right? Fiscal Conservatives in the party are certainly not happy with him, and those with a more libertarian streak (lets not even talk about the log cabin republicans which number about 1 million strong) in them are definitely not happy with his proposal for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriages.

It's not all peaches and cream in the republican party, so I guess you should bring up republicans along with democrats and left wingers in the "Bush Bashers" label. ;)
 
Natoma said:
You do realize that "Bush Bashing" is occurring in the Republican party as well right? Fiscal Conservatives in the party are certainly not happy with him, and those with a more libertarian streak in them are definitely not happy with his proposal for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriages.

It's not all peaches and cream in the republican party, so I guess you should bring up republicans along with democrats and left wingers in the "Bush Bashers" label. ;)
wow your definition of "bashers/bashing" is quite broad to say the least.

later,
epic
 
epicstruggle said:
Are you delusional?? Where have I said that you were a democrat, or for that matter a left winger. You can have an anti-bush extremist bias and not be either a democrat or a left winger

You stated that I am partisan biased. The word partisan connotes fervent support for or alignment with a specific party, person, ideal, etc.

So I should believe what he(kerry) is saying and not what he has done. Ok so from now on you should believe what bush says and not what he has done either. Only fair thing to do, right??

http://slate.msn.com//id/2096654/

"I know exactly where I want to lead this country," says George W. Bush in one of his new campaign ads. The ad, along with three others that began airing today, concludes with his official campaign theme: "President Bush. Steady leadership in times of change." In the revamped stump speech he has delivered twice in the last two weeks, Bush calls the election "a choice between an America that leads the world with strength and confidence, or an America that is uncertain in the face of danger."

And how does Bush view his challenger, John Kerry? The title of the attack ad posted on Bush's campaign Web site says it all: "Unprincipled."

Kerry thinks it's the other way around. He's been telling Democrats Bush is "the biggest say-one-thing, do-another" president ever. Yesterday Kerry's campaign responded to Bush's ads by accusing the president of "unsteady leadership." In the Democratic primaries, this accusation worked for Kerry, because liberals think Bush is a liar. But most voters don't, for a good reason: It isn't true. If Kerry makes the election a referendum on Bush's honesty, Bush will win.

How can Kerry persuade moderates to throw out Bush? By turning the president's message against him. Bush is steady and principled. He believes money is better spent by individuals than by the government. He believes the United States should assert its strength in the world. He believes public policy should respect religious faith. Most Americans share these principles and think Bush is sincere about them. The problem Bush has demonstrated in office is that he has no idea how to apply his principles in a changing world. He's a big-picture guy who can't do the job.

From foreign to economic to social policy, Bush's record is a lesson in the limits and perils of conviction. He's too confident to consult a map. He's too strong to heed warnings and too steady to turn the wheel when the road bends. He's too certain to admit error, even after plowing through ditches and telephone poles. He's too preoccupied with principle to understand that principle isn't enough. Watching the stars instead of the road, he has wrecked the budget and the war on terror. Now he's heading for the Constitution. It's time to pull him over and take away the keys.

Bush was right to go to war against the terrorists who struck us on 9/11. He was right to demand the overdue use of force against the scofflaw Iraqi regime. But he couldn't tell the difference between the two threats. He figured that since both Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden were evil, they had to be connected. Saddam must have helped orchestrate the 9/11 attacks. He must have built weapons of mass destruction to sell to al-Qaida.

In recent months, congressional hearings and document leaks have unearthed a disturbing history. Again and again in 2001 and 2002, U.S. intelligence agencies sent signals that Bush was wrong. The FBI and CIA debunked putative links between Iraq and al-Qaida. The CIA rejected the claim that Iraq had tried to buy uranium from Africa. In its National Intelligence Estimate, the CIA calculated that it could take Saddam up to five years to make a nuclear weapon and that he would transfer WMD to terrorists only if he were invaded. The Defense Intelligence Agency advised the administration that there was "no reliable information on whether Iraq is producing or stockpiling chemical weapons." The Air Force disputed the suggestion that Iraq had developed aerial drones capable of delivering chemical or biological toxins. Analysts questioned whether the White House was right that Saddam's aluminum tubes were designed for building nukes, or that two trucks the White House found suspicious were designed for making biological weapons.

Bush ignored every one of these warnings. They couldn't be true, because they didn't fit his theory. He couldn't stand the complexity of the facts or the ambiguity of intelligence. "Until we get rid of Saddam Hussein, we won't get rid of uncertainty," he told aides in November 2002. Four months later, on the eve of his invasion of Iraq, he declared, "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." After the war, when Diane Sawyer asked Bush about the discrepancy between what he had said--"that there were weapons of mass destruction"--and what U.S. inspectors had found--"the possibility that [Saddam] could move to acquire those weapons"--Bush replied, "What's the difference?"

That's Bush all over: Certainty. No doubt. No difference. But it makes a difference to Britain, France, and Mexico, which no longer trust our requests, based on U.S. intelligence, to cancel flights to the United States. And it makes a difference to China, which refuses to accept our report, based on U.S. intelligence, that North Korea is operating a highly enriched uranium program. Bush's overconfidence—reflected in a series of exaggerations wholly unnecessary to the punishment of Saddam for his noncompliance with U.N. inspections—has trashed our credibility and cost us vital help with other terrorist and WMD-related threats.

Bush was right to propose tax cuts in 1999. The economy was booming. The surplus was ballooning. Liberals were itching to spend the money on new programs, despite Bill Clinton's promises to pay down the national debt. Bush wanted to get the money out of Washington before that happened. That's why, under his plan, the size of the tax cut was to grow from year to year. The point was to keep the surplus from piling up, refunding more and more money as it poured in from a growing economy. That's also why Bush cut taxes across the board instead of targeting middle-class families who would spend the money immediately. He wasn't trying to stimulate the economy. He was trying to give the money back to the people who had paid it in, which meant largely the rich.

Then everything changed. The stock market tanked, and the economy slowed. Sept. 11 shook the nation's confidence and drastically altered military budget projections. Bush didn't need to drain a surplus anymore. He needed to fund national defense and stimulate the economy. He needed to get rid of his back-loaded across-the-board tax cut and replace it (as Jonathan Chait has explained) with front-loaded tax cuts aimed at consumers. Instead, Bush claimed that his original tax-cut elixir was just as good for the new malady as for the old one. The deficit exploded, the economy failed to recover the jobs it had lost, and much of the country remained unprotected from terrorism. The world changed, but Bush couldn't.

When Bush banned federal funding of research on new embryonic stem cell lines, he said sufficient research could proceed because "more than 60" existing cell lines would still be eligible for grants. The true number turned out to be less than half that, but Bush didn't budge. Last fall, in the name of human life, he signed into law a bill that required any doctor performing a second-trimester abortion to cut up the fetus inside the woman instead of removing it intact. Good principle, atrocious policy. His initiative to fund faith-based social programs has been a classic liberal misadventure, adding religious mini-bureaucracies to various Cabinet departments despite a study last year that showed faith-based job training programs were no more effective, and in some ways less effective, than regular job training programs.

Now, to save the family, Bush proposes to monkey with the Constitution. Why is this necessary? Because conservative states might be forced to honor gay marriages performed in liberal states, says Bush. But didn't the Defense of Marriage Act void that requirement? Yes, Bush argues, but DOMA might be struck down. Unwilling to wait for a ruling on DOMA, Bush prefers to circumvent the court system and local democracy by reopening the nation's founding document. He seeks to impose a permanent federal definition of marriage on "any state or city," regardless of what the voters in Boston or San Francisco want.

President Bush. Strength and confidence. Steady leadership in times of change. He knows exactly where he wants to lead this country. And he won't let facts, circumstances, or the Constitution get in his way.
 
epicstruggle said:
Natoma said:
You do realize that "Bush Bashing" is occurring in the Republican party as well right? Fiscal Conservatives in the party are certainly not happy with him, and those with a more libertarian streak in them are definitely not happy with his proposal for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriages.

It's not all peaches and cream in the republican party, so I guess you should bring up republicans along with democrats and left wingers in the "Bush Bashers" label. ;)
wow your definition of "bashers/bashing" is quite broad to say the least.

later,
epic

So you're only a "Bush Basher" if you're a democrat or a left winger? You can't be a "Bush Basher" and be a republican?

I only go by what people define "Bush Basher" as. Whenever someone, anyone, brings up noted critiques of the President, "Oh you're just a Bush Basher." So I dunno. Is it because I'm defining "Bush Basher" broadly, or has it been defined that way already over the past 3 years, and I'm merely pointing out who else falls into the category? ;)
 
Natoma said:
John Reynolds said:
epicstruggle said:
So I should believe what he(kerry) is saying and not what he has done. Ok so from now on you should believe what bush says and not what he has done either. Only fair thing to do, right??

http://slate.msn.com//id/2096654/

Beat me to it. :LOL:

Indeed:

Kerry thinks it's the other way around. He's been telling Democrats Bush is "the biggest say-one-thing, do-another" president ever. Yesterday Kerry's campaign responded to Bush's ads by accusing the president of "unsteady leadership." In the Democratic primaries, this accusation worked for Kerry, because liberals think Bush is a liar. But most voters don't, for a good reason: It isn't true. If Kerry makes the election a referendum on Bush's honesty, Bush will win.
 
Try reading the entire article rather than being the king of cherry picked comments. ;)

The article paints a far more damning picture of Bush. Oh, he's not a liar. He's just too stupid to moderate his position on anything like a good leader should. That's far worse and indictment than "He lied."
 
Natoma said:
Oh, he's not a liar. He's just too stupid to moderate his position on anything like a good leader should. That's far worse and indictment than "He lied."

No, the opinion that he should moderate his position is just that, an opinion. And is nothing close to being a worse indictment than being a liar, or not having any principals upon which decisions are made. The point is, John here is going off about how I can actually believe that Bush is a principled and honest leader...when even this liberal editorial agrees.
 
partisan:A fervent, sometimes militant supporter or proponent of [snip] person, or idea. You have shown to be quite a proponent of bush. ;) see you are a partisan.

Im not sure why you havent answered the question of whether someones track record is more important then their campaign (et al) speeches. Words or actions, which is it?

later,
epic
 
epicstruggle said:
Im not sure why you havent answered the question of whether someones track record is more important then their campaign (et al) speeches. Words or actions, which is it?

Actions, obviously. I can't judge Kerry's actions as president because he obviously hasn't performed that roll yet. But you're trying to peg Kerry as this huge waffler, and while I think he does, as most politicians, feel the electoral opinion too much and adjust his stance accordingly rather than steadfastly, or blindly in Bush's case, follow a principle(s), right or wrong, give this a read: http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_02_29.html#002638

My previous post and the article quoted also addressed this, though not in the way I think you wanted.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
No, the opinion that he should moderate his position is just that, an opinion. And is nothing close to being a worse indictment than being a liar, or not having any principals upon which decisions are made. The point is, John here is going off about how I can actually believe that Bush is a principled and honest leader...when even this liberal editorial agrees.

Anti-bush = automatic labelling as liberal editorial. :devilish:

I think the author was making the point that Natoma stressed. And a little digging into the Bush family connections and business dealings quickly dispels the farcical myth of Dubya as a man of honesty and principals. I truly believe his administration is going to give Taft's a run for its money in the history books as to which was more corrupt. Though I give Bush's the nod for being the most brazen about it. But that's what high-handed principles and fundie self-righteousness gives you. . .peace of mind in the face of blatant, unethical behavior.
 
Back
Top