CA AIDS fundings cut

Vince said:
Natoma said:
I'm not sure what you mean. Separate But Equal was a totally mandatory and governmentally sanctioned class system in this country, and so was slavery. Remember blacks were 3/5 human?

Slavery wasn't mandated in the United States, as I stated the CSA tried but ultimatly failed. 3/5ths is grey in as much as it doesn't lock a person down in the jobs or life they lead in the Union. There were propersous and well spoken/powerful black's in the Union, even in politics.

Ok, I should have clarified my "mandatory and governmentally sanctioned" statement as referring to practically half the states in the union, i.e. the individual state governments, as well as Separate But Equal and the Jim Crow Laws. There was definitely a class tier in our country.

Not to mention the fact that women were denied the right to vote, a very huge oversight in a supposedly democratic nation. :)

Vince said:
And the caste system is hinduism, not british colonialism.

That's not that I stated. I know this and I'm saying that India's westernized and democratic system (not the caste system) is a relic of the Bristish military incursion and subversion of the culture.

But it's still a democratic society. :)
 
Natoma said:
Ok, I should have clarified my "mandatory and governmentally sanctioned" statement as referring to practically half the states in the union, i.e. the individual state governments, as well as Separate But Equal and the Jim Crow Laws. There was definitely a class tier in our country.

Again, the CSA was put down and, thinking myself, it would be hard to show that there was a class system in effect in the actual Union. Frederick Douglass, infamous as he now is, shows that a black in the Union wasn't limited in upward mobility as in India or 18th century Japan. The man was not only brilliant, but rewarded by the society for it and even served as an advisor to the President.

There is a difference between "practically" and "actually happening".

Natoma said:
But it's still a democratic society. :)

See, this is why I made the distinction between your arguments and John's ;) Nah, um, it's democratic for sure - your most definitly right - but in this argument which is talking about foreign powers "pushing" democracy onto an isolated country... it supports my point well.
 
Vince said:
Natoma said:
Ok, I should have clarified my "mandatory and governmentally sanctioned" statement as referring to practically half the states in the union, i.e. the individual state governments, as well as Separate But Equal and the Jim Crow Laws. There was definitely a class tier in our country.

Again, the CSA was put down and, thinking myself, it would be hard to show that there was a class system in effect in the actual Union. Frederick Douglass, infamous as he now is, shows that a black in the Union wasn't limited in upward mobility as in India or 18th century Japan. The man was not only brilliant, but rewarded by the society for it and even served as an advisor to the President.

There is a difference between "practically" and "actually happening".

So a rare case suddenly blows it wide open? Vince, you know as well as I do that's some big time double german dark chocolate brownie fudging.

Vince said:
Natoma said:
But it's still a democratic society. :)

See, this is why I made the distinction between your arguments and John's ;) Nah, um, it's democratic for sure - your most definitly right - but in this argument which is talking about foreign powers "pushing" democracy onto an isolated country... it supports my point well.

The original reason I brought up India was because of the fact that you said that democracies don't have class systems that restrict/remove upward mobility.

Now for the original original reason I actually started responding in this thread, then yes, India would be a case of militarily enforced democracy on another country through open war or colonization.
 
Natoma said:
So a rare case suddenly blows it wide open? Vince, you know as well as I do that's some big time double german dark chocolate brownie fudging.

HA! I'm tempted just to let you have the argument because that comment earned it :), but an "exception" shows invalidity as we both know.

I admit I don't know much about this period and you surely know more, but I think that many of the southerners who were well educated and black, like the creoles or many other's, who emegrated to the North did move up in society as well.

I'll say this. In the Union, there were no concrete laws preventing black from enhancing their status in society on all levels. Although, the virtual/societal pressure against them had to be enormous.

Natoma said:
The original reason I brought up India was because of the fact that you said that democracies don't have class systems that restrict/remove upward mobility.

Now for the original original reason I actually started responding in this thread, then yes, India would be a case of militarily enforced democracy on another country through open war or colonization.

Agreed.
 
Vince said:
It's not insulting, nor did I state it was. Ive yet to be insulted, but it's hollow. What's a Neo-Conservative? I want your thoughts, not some leftist/far-right website critisizing them. Whose a Neo-Conservative? Where can I register? Which professors are Neo-Cons? What's their history?

You need to focus your thoughts Vince instead of rambling. You want me to start listing professors' political leanings and their histories? Let's just stick with defining neo-conservatism. And if we're going to have this discussion, can we for once stop the childish name calling?

My personal impression of neocons is that they're a strange commingling of conservatives and Christian righties. Yet their ideological roots are based on the wielding of power to combat perceived enemies (terror, drugs). They are ardent internationalists. This global policy is what binds them, for neo-cons are quite different in the traditional conservative's viewpoints on smaller government and reduced spending.

Just Googled this: http://www.fpif.org/papers/02men/box2.html

Neoconservatives: Neoconservatives constitute an intellectual current that emerged from the cold war liberalism of the Democratic Party. Unlike other elements of the conservative mainstream, neoconservatives have historical social roots in liberal and leftist politics. Disillusioned first with socialism and communism and later with new Democrats (like George McGovern) who came to dominate the Democratic Party in the 1970s, neoconservatives played a key role in boosting the New Right into political dominance in the 1980s. For the most part, neoconservatives—who are disproportionately Jewish and Catholic—are not politicians but rather political analysts, activist ideologues, and scholars who have played a central role in forging the agendas of numerous right-wing think tanks, front groups, and foundations. Neoconservatives have a profound belief in America’s moral superiority, which facilitates alliances with the Christian Right and other social conservatives. But unlike either core traditionalists of American conservatism or those with isolationist tendencies, neoconservatives are committed internationalists. As they did in the 1970s, the neoconservatives were instrumental in the late 1990s in helping to fuse diverse elements of the right into a unified force based on a new agenda of U.S. supremacy.

And this is why I've argued that your Monroe/Truman doctrines are poor analogies because neo-cons represent an almost imperial, militaristic, ideological group that has never before been seen in American culture or politics. Quite frankly, they scare me.

What's interesting to me, however, is the political shifts that have so quickly occurred since the Cold War's end. If neo-conservatism truly is rooted in disenfranchised, former liberals, it's interesting how it's been co-opted by analysts and intellectuals more than career politicians. Or so it appears to me.

Now you see why I call the invasion of Iraq a neo-con policy?

Edit: Oh, and to make Joe happy I'll say that I don't think it's entirely fair to label Bush a true neo-con; that said, he has surrounded himself with them, and filled important DoD positions with them.
 
John Reynolds said:
You need to focus your thoughts Vince instead of rambling. You want me to start listing professors' political leanings and their histories? Let's just stick with defining neo-conservatism.

The point is that you couldn't, there are no (or few) true self-professed "Neo-Cons."

John said:
My personal impression of neocons is that they're a strange commingling of conservatives and Christian righties. Yet their ideological roots are based on the wielding of power to combat perceived enemies (terror, drugs). They are ardent internationalists. This global policy is what binds them, for neo-cons are quite different in the traditional conservative's viewpoints on smaller government and reduced spending.

Exactly, it's just an arbitrary definition of a group with little factual basis. Everyone thinks the Neo-Conservaties are something a bit different, but we all know they're evil and as you said, "Scary." Basically the Left's responce to the Republican's sucessfull tarring of the "Liberal" title. Truth-be-told, they don't exist, I can't find them...

John said:
And this is why I've argued that your Monroe/Truman doctrines are poor analogies because neo-cons represent an almost imperial, militaristic, ideological group that has never before been seen in American culture or politics. Quite frankly, they scare me.

First of all, you're arguing that my analogies are incorrect not because of what's actually there or trying to see, but because the "evil" neocons repersent "an almost imperial, militaristic, ideological group that has never before been seen in American culture or politics"

And then you wonder why I go fucking insane arguing with you. I'm not a suscriber to this Neo-Con bullshit. My argument is academic and stands on it's own merits, treat it as such, not some ignorant argument based off what the "Neo-Cons" believe... they aren't even a definable group!

This is exactly why the term "Neo-Con" invokes such a responce from me. In a brief moment of political truth from me, it's the same shit "we" (eg. Conservatives) did to the liberal name, we beat the shit out of it, made it equal to the devil and sold it.

John said:
What's interesting to me, however, is the political shifts that have so quickly occurred since the Cold War's end. If neo-conservatism truly is rooted in disenfranchised, former liberals, it's interesting how it's been co-opted by analysts and intellectuals more than career politicians. Or so it appears to me.

Perhaps because a phantom organization can do such acts? Just ask that Diarrhea_Spatter guy about his organisations he believes in.. any virtual group that's shrouded in mystery and with a public persona much, much bigger than what's really there has this quality. The "Mafia" is the same thing.

John said:
Now you see why I call the invasion of Iraq a neo-con policy?

Now do you see why I can't stand arguing with you? It's bullshit, you're eating into the same political rhetoric that led Hillary to talk about the "vast rightwing conspiracy"
 
John Reynolds said:
Wow, I'm so glad we could have this discussion Vince.

P.S. And how did I know I was wasting my time writing that post?

Your post is horrible. Lets sum-up:

  • Your opposition to my views exist "because neo-cons represent an almost imperial, militaristic, ideological group that has never before been seen in American culture or politics. Quite frankly, they scare me." Not because there's incorrectness in the views themsevles - atleast I now understand why you debated for so long with points and history which was soo incorrect and full of holes.
  • Neoconservatives have historical social roots in liberal and leftist politics. Which explains why Don Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz are said to be so powerful, since they're formerly of leftist thinking. heh.
  • "Now you see why I call the invasion of Iraq a neo-con policy?" No - Vince.
  • "They scare me [John]."

Wow, John, what can I say. I'm so glad I've typed my own responces to someone whose actually understood the time, history, and concepts I was discussing and wanted to present a counter-argument based on fact. Oh yea, before I forget... :rolleyes:

I kinda felt bad for a while calling you a tool of politics, but I was right. Never thought you were so far gone... "imperial, militaristic, ideological group that has never before been seen in American culture or politics." is something I'd expect to hear from Diarrhea_Splatter, not you....

All you'd need are the Jews in there... wait..."who are disproportionately Jewish and Catholic." Score! Diarrhea_Splatter Approved!
 
http://www.sobran.com/columns/2003/030424.shtml

Conservatism — or at least something calling itself conservatism — is now fashionable, and those who claim the label are triumphant today. Their government has just won a war, and they can afford to gloat not only over liberals, but over an older breed of conservatives who are suspicious of big government even when (or especially when) it’s winning.

When I began to consider myself a conservative, back in 1965, conservatism didn’t seem to have much of a future. Lyndon Johnson had just crushed Barry Goldwater in what looked like a final showdown between the philosophies of limitless and limited government. I was clearly enlisting in a losing cause.

But that, in a way, was what attracted me to conservatism. It was a philosophy of reflective losers, men whose principles and memories gave them resistance to the conquering fad and its propaganda. Such men hoped for victory, naturally, but they were fighting heavy odds, fierce passions, and powerful interests. They were ready for defeat, but they weren’t going to adjust their principles in order to win. They knew that if you win power by giving up your principles, you’ve already lost.

I was a college student, and my reading in English literature had already predisposed me to conservatism. The great writers I admired — Shakespeare, Jonathan Swift, Samuel Johnson, Edmund Burke, John Henry Newman, G.K. Chesterton, C.S. Lewis, George Orwell, Michael Oakeshott — were all notable for opposing the fads and enthusiasms of their times. They took being in the minority for granted. They even treasured solitude and meditation. Their minds and hearts were closed to statist propaganda and the passions it sought to incite, and they were prepared to endure abuse and libel for refusing to join the herd — especially what has been wittily called “the herd of independent minds.â€

It soon turned out that the Goldwater campaign marked only the beginning, not the end, of a powerful new conservative movement, which astonished itself by managing to get one of its own, Ronald Reagan, elected president in 1980. Few had imagined this possible in 1965.

But by winning power, the conservative movement began to loose its grip on conservative principles. It had hoped to reverse the gains of liberalism — not only Johnson’s Great Society, but Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal, both of which had violated America’s constitutional tradition of strictly limited and federal government. Now it quietly dropped its original goals.

As a powerful movement, conservatism also attracted new members who were more interested in power than in principle. Some of these were called “neoconservatives†— admirers of Roosevelt and recent supporters of Lyndon Johnson who cared nothing for limited government and the U.S. Constitution. Few of them, if any, had voted for Goldwater.

The chief common ground between the conservatives and the neocons was an anti-Communist foreign policy. All talk of deeper principles — and of repealing the welfare state — was discreetly dropped for the sake of harmony within the movement and political victory.

The conservatives wanted to keep the neocons within the movement. In this they succeeded only too well. Today the neocons have not only stayed; they have taken over the movement and pushed the principled conservatives out — or cowed them into silence, which comes to the same thing.

The older conservatives were wary of foreign entanglements and opposed on principle to foreign aid. But these are the very things the neocons favor most ardently; in fact, they are the very things that define neoconservatism and separate it from genuine conservatism.

As the neocon Max Boot recently wrote, “Support for Israel [is] a key tenet of neoconservatism.†He failed to name any other “key†tenets, because there aren’t any. War against Arab and Muslim regimes — enemies of Israel — is what it’s all about. Reagan’s all-out support for Israel, when Jimmy Carter was toying with Palestinian rights, is what won him neocon support in 1980.

A Rip Van Winkle conservative who had dozed off in 1965 would wake up in 2003 to find a movement that has almost nothing to do with the creed he professed when he last closed his eyes. It also has nothing to do with the conservative temper we find in the great writers of the past. It has everything to do with a shallow jingoism and war propaganda. It has become the sort of hot fad wise conservatives used to avoid, back when wise conservatives still defined conservatism.
 
Reagan’s all-out support for Israel, when Jimmy Carter was toying with Palestinian rights, is what won him neocon support in 1980.

This is misleading. Reagan threatened to cut US aid to Israel over it's invasion of Lebanon. Israel backed down. That's not exactly 'all-out' support in my book...
 
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