BLU-RAY WIN!
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MechanizedDeath
Regular
DemoCoder said:
Said it better than I could. The whole reason we have to deal with HDTV formats now is b/c DVD was approved for SDTV resolutions despite HDTV being right around the corner. There were some major complaints back then, but they quickly died down since DVD was such a mammoth improvement over VHS (mostly for random access IMO). But now that we have an HDTV standard approved, and at least a decade with it (hopefully much longer), there's no reason to settle for anything that doesn't support the maximum resolution HDTV can provide, otherwise we'll be doing this same ridiculous song and dance again in another decade. You have to really hate Sony to not see the clear advantages to BRD. I suppose I'm done discussing it here. I think the point has been made. PEACE.
jvd said:
It won't be a decade. Did you attend CES 2005? I did. Every new TV demoed there was 1080p. The number of HDTV sets sold last year was twice the year before. And last years as twice that. HDTV sales are growing exponentially, and in a few short years, 1080p sets will be quite common. But it's not just 1080p, HD-DVD is inferior at recording, and will support lower quality mastering than BluRay at 720p and 1080i as well.
We shouldn't be rushing out an inferior hackneyed evolutionary format at this stage, which is what HD-DVD is. It is clearly technically inferior on all fronts, except manufacturing costs, but I, as a consumer, don't care how much it costs them to press the disc. Most of the price I pay for a disc ($39 DVD movie) is not the manufacturing cost. I really can't fathom why an end user wants to support a standard purely on the reduced margins of manufacturers and give up a superior format in the process.
Even if you want to argue that every 10 years, we should throw out whatever format we have and do a new one, that still means whatever you design during the "switchover" should be the best possible technology that will last the longest over that 10 years. We are an an HDTV inflection point. What we decide together will stay with us for 10 years or even much longer (just look at NTSC) Do you want to be stuck with shit for 10 years, just because you know it might be fixed by another format 10 years later? If not, why do the same HD-DVD fanboys argue so strenuously about maxing next-gen CONSOLE system specs today, and cry disappointment when what Sony or MS ship falls below?
It is cheaper and better to do the right thing now, then have something crappy and need to fix it later.
To me, the HD-DVD fanboys are suffering serious bouts of cognitive dissonance. They've wed themselvers to a LOSER of a format, and now, to avoid embarassment, continue to defend their original choice, instead of being objective about what is best. I guess it is too much to expect someone to admit they were wrong.
The only problem is its not the 1080p models that are selling so well. I will wager it will be at least 10 years for 1080p over takes 720i .
Yes i realise that bluray is in some ways better . But in some ways its not . Personaly i rather have a large group of people competing against each other than one company holding the rights to the technology and being able to fix prices as they see fit
RancidLunchmeat
Veteran
Recordability? Fine. I'll buy that.
What I won't buy is 1080p. Where the hell did you get that from?
I've got a 46 inch HD DLP, I did a fair amount of research before I made such a large purchase. I found out that 720p is no different than 1080i, the only difference is how the information is processed and presented to you.
And NO, I can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080i.
Now you're talking about 1080p?
What planet are you on that believes that video will be readily available to people within the next 5 years in 1080p?
Is there any TV on earth that will display 1080p? Right now? No, I didn't think so. Sure, plans are being MADE to produce such equipment but this has a relation to the discussion.. HOW? It seems to me that you are attempting to "future-proof" your OWN equipment when the vast majority of people won't even be enjoying 720p for the next FIVE years.
Why should they have to eat the R&D costs of YOUR future-tech? I'm all for the biggest and best, but you have YET to show that HD-DVD can't supply 720p, 1080i, or EVEN 1080p because there's no definitive confirmation that BR can provide 1080p OR that HD-DVD cannot do it!
Btw, I DO own a HDTV today, my HDTV displays 720p and 1080i, and BOTH of them are HDTV standards.
Where exactly is it that you are getting the idea that HDTVs and HDDVDs need to display 1080p in order to be "considered" as HD "standards"?
I still must be missing your point.
27 gigs for 720p? HD-DVD meets that. Ok, your point is what?
56 gigs for 1080p Dreamworld that you live in? Last I heard a TWO layer HD-DVD has 50 gigs of space on it. A Triple layer, would obviously meet your requirements.
AGAIN tell me why BR is superior?
And tell me FACTUALLY without all your pathetic ad hominem attacks on whether or not I actually own the equipment necessary to appreciate it's value. I OWN a HDTV. I AM an audiophile. I won 1st place in IASCA World Championship for my car's stereo system. I understand the difference in audio and visual quality, and I also understand the logical underlyings of debate.
So far, the only advantege I've got for BR is recordability (which is actually HUGE; somebody could have said that earlier, IMO), and the whisper of hope that HD-DVD won't actually provide enough capacity for a format which isn't close to being accepted, let alone utilized!
If anybody thinks that 1080p is going to become mainstream in the next 10 years, they're off their rocker.
And NO, in case you're wondering, I don't know sh** about sh** and I've siad as much, but what I DO know is logical debate skills, and questioning somebody's ability to take advantage of X or questioning somebody's motivation in opposing X are NOT logical debate strategies.
I asked a very simple question (why is X better than Y) numerous times and until Tsmit42's reply, all I got were personal attacks on PC-Engine and then on myself. I shouldn't have to tell you that I had a World Champship Car Audio Stereo for you to answer my question. I shouldn't have to tell you that've I've got $20k+ invested in a home theater system. I shouldn't have to tell you that I've got a $1200 HTPC, in order for you to answer what is a VERY simple question.
You should either answer the question that is asked, or DON'T REPLY. And you certainly don't need to reply with personal attacks on ME because I asked a question that you felt threatened by. Those who are in command, those who are in control, those who KNOW they are on the "correct side" have no need for such attacks because they can easily EXPLAIN their position and win over the opposition.
Go bully somebody else, because I'm not buying anything that isn't factually supported.
What I won't buy is 1080p. Where the hell did you get that from?
I've got a 46 inch HD DLP, I did a fair amount of research before I made such a large purchase. I found out that 720p is no different than 1080i, the only difference is how the information is processed and presented to you.
And NO, I can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080i.
Now you're talking about 1080p?
What planet are you on that believes that video will be readily available to people within the next 5 years in 1080p?
Is there any TV on earth that will display 1080p? Right now? No, I didn't think so. Sure, plans are being MADE to produce such equipment but this has a relation to the discussion.. HOW? It seems to me that you are attempting to "future-proof" your OWN equipment when the vast majority of people won't even be enjoying 720p for the next FIVE years.
Why should they have to eat the R&D costs of YOUR future-tech? I'm all for the biggest and best, but you have YET to show that HD-DVD can't supply 720p, 1080i, or EVEN 1080p because there's no definitive confirmation that BR can provide 1080p OR that HD-DVD cannot do it!
Btw, I DO own a HDTV today, my HDTV displays 720p and 1080i, and BOTH of them are HDTV standards.
Where exactly is it that you are getting the idea that HDTVs and HDDVDs need to display 1080p in order to be "considered" as HD "standards"?
I still must be missing your point.
27 gigs for 720p? HD-DVD meets that. Ok, your point is what?
56 gigs for 1080p Dreamworld that you live in? Last I heard a TWO layer HD-DVD has 50 gigs of space on it. A Triple layer, would obviously meet your requirements.
AGAIN tell me why BR is superior?
And tell me FACTUALLY without all your pathetic ad hominem attacks on whether or not I actually own the equipment necessary to appreciate it's value. I OWN a HDTV. I AM an audiophile. I won 1st place in IASCA World Championship for my car's stereo system. I understand the difference in audio and visual quality, and I also understand the logical underlyings of debate.
So far, the only advantege I've got for BR is recordability (which is actually HUGE; somebody could have said that earlier, IMO), and the whisper of hope that HD-DVD won't actually provide enough capacity for a format which isn't close to being accepted, let alone utilized!
If anybody thinks that 1080p is going to become mainstream in the next 10 years, they're off their rocker.
And NO, in case you're wondering, I don't know sh** about sh** and I've siad as much, but what I DO know is logical debate skills, and questioning somebody's ability to take advantage of X or questioning somebody's motivation in opposing X are NOT logical debate strategies.
I asked a very simple question (why is X better than Y) numerous times and until Tsmit42's reply, all I got were personal attacks on PC-Engine and then on myself. I shouldn't have to tell you that I had a World Champship Car Audio Stereo for you to answer my question. I shouldn't have to tell you that've I've got $20k+ invested in a home theater system. I shouldn't have to tell you that I've got a $1200 HTPC, in order for you to answer what is a VERY simple question.
You should either answer the question that is asked, or DON'T REPLY. And you certainly don't need to reply with personal attacks on ME because I asked a question that you felt threatened by. Those who are in command, those who are in control, those who KNOW they are on the "correct side" have no need for such attacks because they can easily EXPLAIN their position and win over the opposition.
Go bully somebody else, because I'm not buying anything that isn't factually supported.
RancidLunchmeat said:
There are 1080p sets on sale right now, and a whole bunch hitting the market in June/July. At some point in the future, TI is going to switch production to XHD3 away from HD2+ Mustang, which means most RP DLPs will be forced to 1080p. DLP and LCD technology are semiconductor-like technology, which means that its manufacturing-to-cost scale reduces overtime, once it reaches critical mass. In 5 years, no DLP manufacturer will be producing 720p TVs anymore than Intel and AMD will be producing .25micron CPUs.
Simply put, it won't be possible to buy a DLP in 2010 that is using a 720p DMD chip.
Moreover, at CES 2005 this year, 1080p was the theme of *every* manufacturer.
Well, you didn't do enough research. 720p is not "no different" than 1080p. 720p is 921,600 pixels every 1/60th of a second. 1080i is 1,038,600. Not to mention that interlacing creates artifacts that are annoying in and of themselves (and yes, I can see those artifacts in 1080i broadcasts)
This is shown time and time again at CES and CEDIA expo's where they run 1080p side by side against 1080i and 720p.
Well, since you don't have a 1080i set (a DLP is most likely, 720p native), of course you can't, since your TV is not capable of 1080i, but is merely scaling it to 720p. However, if you view them side by side, you will see interlacing artifacts. DLP is INHERENTLY progressive.
You're wrong. There are more than a dozen shipping right now. PDP and LCD. DLP are coming in June. (Samsung xHD3 based versions)
There is no DLP that displays BOTH 720p and 1080i. Your TV has 720 lines of resolution. You simply don't know what you're talking about. It is not an adhominem attack to say that you are clearly ignorant.
No one said that anything less than 1080p wasn't HDTV. I said anything less than 720p ISN'T. Missing my point? It seems you've missed lots.
Not on a single layer it doesn't. And it won't record.
Well, clear you do NOT understand the difference, since you have no clue how your DLP TV handles 1080i, or the difference between 1080i and 720p.
$20k, and all you have to show for is a 46" DLP? Let me guess, you blew all your money on sound.
RancidLunchmeat
Veteran
Thanks Tsmit42, I actually did my own search before I made my reply, so I know what manufacturers are coming out with what sets when.
My question is in response to your statement that "BR can do it and many other things".
So far, all you've offered is recordability.
In my book, that is actually ENOUGH to move me BACK to BR. As I stated before, I was a BR supporter when they were offering what? 5x the capacity of the HD-DVD?
But now that cap has closed. If recordability is now the issue, I will ALWAYS side on the format that allows recordability.
But you said "many other things", so I'm trying to ask what are those "many other things" without people calling PC-Engine names, and without people questioning 1) My ability to spend money and 2) My ability to actually appreciate the benefit of a particular format.
I just want to know what those benefits actually are so I can make up my own mind.
Maybe you can convince me and tomorrow I'll rail with you and Democoder against PC-Engine and tell him how stupid his blind hatred for Sony is.
However, in the mean time.. I'm just getting "..other things". And I'm sorry, but I don't support something because there's talk that vague "other things" will be better or are important.
My question is in response to your statement that "BR can do it and many other things".
So far, all you've offered is recordability.
In my book, that is actually ENOUGH to move me BACK to BR. As I stated before, I was a BR supporter when they were offering what? 5x the capacity of the HD-DVD?
But now that cap has closed. If recordability is now the issue, I will ALWAYS side on the format that allows recordability.
But you said "many other things", so I'm trying to ask what are those "many other things" without people calling PC-Engine names, and without people questioning 1) My ability to spend money and 2) My ability to actually appreciate the benefit of a particular format.
I just want to know what those benefits actually are so I can make up my own mind.
Maybe you can convince me and tomorrow I'll rail with you and Democoder against PC-Engine and tell him how stupid his blind hatred for Sony is.
However, in the mean time.. I'm just getting "..other things". And I'm sorry, but I don't support something because there's talk that vague "other things" will be better or are important.
JF_Aidan_Pryde
Regular
DemoCoder said:
Fanboys have no reasoning.
jvd said:
Well, typically, bit-density in recording controls costs. If you buy an HD with X gb/square inch and another with X/2 gb/square inch, you can get similar sizes, but the latter will have 2 times as many layers and heads, and end up more expensive.
BD scales to more layers easier than HDDVD, so if you're going to posit TL HD-DVD, let's posit 4-layer and 8-layer BD, which is in the roadmap of the format.
(Sony demoed 8-layer BD players already)
JF_Aidan_Pryde
Regular
Any comparision between this format war and Beta vs. VHS is pointless. In that decade, Sony was an electronics company with no software or other leverage. Panasonic and JVC was behind VHS.
This time Sony and Panasonic (among with a gang of others) are on the same side. This time Sony owns Columbia Tristar, MGM and Playstation.
This time Sony and Panasonic (among with a gang of others) are on the same side. This time Sony owns Columbia Tristar, MGM and Playstation.
DemoCoder said:
Dude you're pulling stuff out from thin air. First of all if you're going to be talking about 4L and 8L BR assuming it actually get's past the experimental stage, it doesn't help your cause in future proofing your equipment because the BR spec does not have 4L and 8L provisions. In other words when you get your hands on that shiny expensive new BR recorder there's ZERO guarantee it will work with future 4L and 8L discs again assuming these discs don't turn out to be vaporware.
Triple layers doesn't require more heads, that's BS. It requires very little on the drive side of things like a slightly stronger laser, different firmware.
So in conclusion you're stuck with your 2 layer MAX BR recorder for the next 10 years.
Movies?
JF_Aidan_Pryde said:
And this time there are a large number of companies behind HD DVD including half of Hollywood. And now that 45GB HD DVD is on the horizon Fox and Disney will eventually jump to the HD DVD camp rendering SONY stuck with an obsolete format.
JF_Aidan_Pryde said:
So do trolls.
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