Apparantly the PSP2 exists.

[Mobius1aic]

I agree with releasing titles on carts of some kind. I don't see even a PSP2 really needing more than 4 GB for single game cartridges. Hell, they could scale the cart sizes in order to meet the needs of games themselves. As for the system, I would expect 8 or 16 GB of Flash storage with provision of course for some kind of memory card for expansion.

Sony should embrace a DD + Cart retail system fully. If people want it they can buy a physical cartridge. If they want, they can download it instead. Also didn't Sony have some kind of download station system in place at certain retailers for downloading demos and whatnot? Who says this couldn't work for full games? People pay at the sight, and wirelessly download the product in range of the "download station". It allows for a wide range of options, the burden of retail cartridges can be lowered to some extent by offering DD or a download station system. Retailers with the download station get a cut of course just like with physical product. Kid without internet gets his game in one of two forms, and is happy (assuming the game is good ). Why not use the download station system as a way of encouraging patrons into a store? They can play together via the station's already payed for internet connection to bring more clientele into the retailer in which case they can be coerced into other non Sony things too. It can be a larger kiosk like device with a bench or couple of built in chairs for people to sit and enjoy. While Gamestop might not like such a large thing in their small retail stores, a larger store surely would have the space. While I see many reasons why not to have this, I see many reasons for it. Sony will encourage the more social aspect everyone loves to push these days (and I personally abhor).

 

[cthellis42]

They were testing "game station" rollouts before, but it seems to be a pretty logistically complex system to get up and running, keep in place, and make sure continues to run well. Not in the least affected by the quality of the people having to run it; and while GameStop employees would probably be the most easily trainable and counts for a lot, you're not really going to get Wal-Mart along for the ride, nor necessarily Best Buy and Target, so... leads to a pretty fragmented system.

A pre-load system like Steam uses would work best, I think. Everyone who already knows they want a game and would pre-order it would be able to spread the load days before it's officially released to have the client on time. Box stores could still sell the codes, along with physical media to cover the impulse buyers and customers who simply don't know/care about digital downloads.

I don't think on-site downloading would be beneficial enough to fight through all the logistical woes and potential hangups at the register.

 

[wco81]

I think it'll be interesting to see where Sony goes with the next PSP, and while some are expecting/hoping for Sony to compete with Apple's handheld devices, i think many will be surprised when Sony unviels the PSP2 as a more powerful dedicated gaming device (therefore competing directly with Nintendo once more).

I presonally don't see why Sony should concern themselves with the iDevices and various android mobile/tablets etc... as these devices invariably provide very small-scale (mostly) shallow gaming experiences. It's why many games on the app store can be free, and the majority of the software can be sold in small enough file sizes to be d/l'ed via a 3G connection on the go. PSP & the DS on the otherhand offer deeper, richer, higher priced software with files sizes weighing in at hundreds of MBs to GBs. I fail to see how a DD only PSP without physical media would be able to support d/ls of games over the 3G networks.

It's not the only reason i don't think the next PSP will be an equivalent iDevice. Another is the fact that probably one of the biggest draws for Apples devices which i think many people forget, are the oodles of non-gaming apps that the platform is able to offer. This is an area that i don't think Sony is looking to get into with PSP (i hope i'm wrong), as i believe that they want to remain principally a gaming-focussed device. Not only that i believe it would be far too hard and investment-intensive to compete with the likes of Apple with their portable iOS platform and Google's android platform, not to mention WinMo7 and the plethora of enabled phones/tablets that release with that and it's XBLive functionality. They'd be far too late to the game and would get raped badly. If they focuss on a solid portable gaming device like the 3DS and get the same 3rd parties making the same deeper and richer content, i think they can have the same if not much better success than they had with the PSP.

I think they'll put out a more powerful PSP, with autosterioscopic 3D, constantly connected 3G (for online gaming and portable MMOs) and focus primarily on competing in the dedicated portable gaming space with the PSP2 against Nintendo.

There's also nothing to stop them from developing the PSP software platform to be able to offer non-gaming apps later on down the line. That way they take less risk by doing what their known for and do best in the area they did well at the last time. They can then grow and expand the software platform and open in up to more and more devs for their own app store as they go.

That's also what i reckon Nintendo will do ;-)

Shallow gaming experiences may be what most people want from a portable device, aside from the Nintendo franchises.

A lot of gamers who own consoles may be opting for smart phones and be content with "shallow" games because the price is right, that's all they have time for on the go, the convenience of having it on the phone, etc.

And if they want to get deeper gaming experiences, they do it on the console when they get home.

On long train or plane trips, deeper games may have some draw. But if those are the only instances when people would get into a game, does it justify a dedicated portable game machine which isn't a Nintendo?

 

[Butta]

I hope that Sony uses this:

http://www.dailytech.com/Marvell+Unleashes+15+GHz+TripleCore+Mobile+Processor/article19702.htm

 

[cthellis42]

Shallow gaming experiences may be what most people want from a portable device, aside from the Nintendo franchises.

A lot of gamers who own consoles may be opting for smart phones and be content with "shallow" games because the price is right, that's all they have time for on the go, the convenience of having it on the phone, etc.

And if they want to get deeper gaming experiences, they do it on the console when they get home.

On long train or plane trips, deeper games may have some draw. But if those are the only instances when people would get into a game, does it justify a dedicated portable game machine which isn't a Nintendo?

That would appear to be a problem. Not to mention that many of the most fun experiences on the portables count as "shallow." Did I enjoy New Super Mario Bros. on the DS? Of course. But would I rather have that on the regular consoles? Of course.

For me, the DS was driven by more of the quirky games (like Oendan/EBA and Wario), and Brain Ages, and things like Layton. None of which would have any difficulty being played on an iPod Touch, for instance.

The PSP? While I loved having capable versions of Burnout and Tekken to carry around in my pocket, I ended up playing more puzzle games, and getting absorbed by LocoRoco and Patapon. All of THEM have no issues on an iPod Touch either.


At one point I took the top-rated and top-selling games on DS and PSP, and by and large the majority of them could make the move quite handily, which makes me question what people really mean by "shallow." Apparently they buy and love a crap-top of games that work fine even with the iPod's control limitations.

Certainly what the DS and PSP provide is depth to it, as there are types of games which really CAN'T be supported on an iPod/smartphone platform, but the question is... will that always be the overriding factor? Or will the push of more casual gaming and the ease of "one device"-ness emphasize a device like an iPod Touch or smartphone instead, and the more complex ones to your main console and TV? IIRC, earlier polls showed that people played their DS/PSP the majority of the time at home and near a power outlet anyway. The younger were more likely to carry the device to school or a friend's house, but they're also in the bracket that can get consumed by games like Angry Birds.


Personally, I see it trending in that direction (excepting in Japan), and am wondering if anyone is going to try the hybrid approach. A device like the PSP, for instance, could easily shell around an iPod Touch or an iPhone. (Less easily the larger and bulkier smartphones, but it would still be doable.) Keep the core with you at all times--either as your PMP or your smartphone--and attach the "gaming shell" when you want to play the more serious titles. Slightly wacky, but what do you gain by having to be "the other device" people carry around? It's not like physical buttons, analog sticks, triggers, or speakers have to be built in... A well-designed encasement could accommodate.

I think it would be a fairly easy "best of both worlds" to whip up, compared to others that have been attempted in the past.

 

[Mobius1aic]

I hope that Sony uses this:

http://www.dailytech.com/Marvell+Unleashes+15+GHz+TripleCore+Mobile+Processor/article19702.htm

That's a very nice chip right there

 

[NeoTechni]

1st maybe but I don't get the fractionation with DD only. It severely and artificially limits the market at this point.

Agreed. And so does sony

They recently said psp2 wont be download only

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/40528/Hirai-rules-out-download-only-PSP2

“We are doing business not just in the developed nations of the world, but also in parts of the world where network infrastructure isn’t as robust as one would hope for”

“There’s always going to be requirement for a business with the size and scope of our magnitude to have a physical medium. Whether it a portable device or a home-based console."

“So to say we are going to put all our eggs into a network-only basket? I think that is taking that a little too far. In general, to think everything will be downloaded in two years, three years or even ten years from now is taking it a little bit to the extreme."

Using flash doesn't make much sense either, when 1 GB costs almost as much to manufacture as a 50 GB Bluray disc.
In all likelihood, they'll be using Bluray-based UMD on PSP2. Switching back to a solidstate pay-per-megabyte medium would be a step backwards for developers.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

But at the end of the day consumers interrests are just as, and even more important. A Disk based system has so many disadvantages that flash would be better IMHO. First of all you don't have the expenses of having to tool up a factory for a medium only you will be using. Not only that but disks will be relative large and fragile and also the drive itself will take up a lot of space, will be one of the more fragile points of the system, harder to make, eat up battery, slow loading etc. OTOH a using flashcards like the DS is about the most robust system you are going to get.

The 3DS will initially have cards up to 2gb. Assuming Sony goes for high end gfx for the psp2, would something like a 4gb card at launch work in terms of costs vs storage?

 

[NeoTechni]

But at the end of the day consumers interrests are just as, and even more important. A Disk based system has so many disadvantages that flash would be better IMHO.

All of which were taken into consideration with PSP1/UMD1, PS1/CD, PS2/DVD, PS3/BRD. And Sony went with the more cost effective option every time

First of all you don't have the expenses of having to tool up a factory for a medium only you will be using

Not an issue. They'd be using the same tools they use already for PSP/UMD.

Not only that but disks will be relative large and fragile and also the drive itself will take up a lot of space, will be one of the more fragile points of the system, harder to make, eat up battery, slow loading etc.

Others have already proven UMD isn't really that big an impact on battery life thanks to Go being worse at it than the Slims.

Slow loading can easily be defeated by allowing installs of any game like 360 did.

The 3DS will initially have cards up to 2gb.

With better graphics than PSP, that's going to be a limitation.
Same capacity games, bigger graphics, something has to give.

Assuming Sony goes for high end gfx for the psp2, would something like a 4gb card at launch work in terms of costs vs storage?

It'd cost about 3 times as much as a 50 GB bluray disc.
Even if we assume a BLUMD would cost as much as a 50 GB bluray disc and not less like it probably would. That's a huge cost to eat up for publishers.

But at the end of the day consumers interests are not as important as costs.
Plus it's in the consumers best interest to go with a medium where devs wont be pressured to keep filesizes low to minimize publishing costs. The smorgasbord of capacity that discs offer is a huge advantage.

 

[Teasy]

All of which were taken into consideration with PSP1/UMD1, PS1/CD, PS2/DVD, PS3/BRD. And Sony went with the more cost effective option every time

Lets look at handhelds not consoles, Sony have made one handheld and UMD was hardly a huge success, they removed the thing in later revisions.

With better graphics than PSP, that's going to be a limitation.
Same capacity games, bigger graphics, something has to give.

First of all 3DS already has better graphics then PSP. Second a PSP disc was 1.8GB max, while initial 3DS mem cards will be 2GB. Considering advances in graphics over PSP will not simply be down to things that require more storage and bigger mem cards coming for 3DS (and so equally possible for PSP2) I see no reason why it would be a problem.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Others have already proven UMD isn't really that big an impact on battery life thanks to Go being worse at it than the Slims.

Go has a smaller battery. Same sized battery would have resulted in a longer battery life.

With better graphics than PSP, that's going to be a limitation. Same capacity games, bigger graphics, something has to give.

Xbox - DVD. XB360 - DVD. If UMD's aren't being used to capacity, and I believe typically UMD games are about 500 MBs in size, we're looking an XB-like situation. 2GB flash should be fine for launch, and larger capacities can be introduced later on with production advances.

That's a huge cost to eat up for publishers.

Just add $2 on the cost of each cart versus what you'd charge for the same thing on disc. Plus the potential is there for small boxes and cheaper distribution, but I imagine boxes will remain oversized.

I believe there's a whole thread discussing this already though. It'd be worth digging it up rather than repeating the same arguments again!

 

[NeoTechni]

Go has a smaller battery.

Mentioned already by the people who covered it in this topic.

Sony still managed to improve battery life on the slims far better than they did on the Go. UMD while taking more power than flash, doesnt stop Sony from making strives forward. BLUMD would also use less power than UMD, as it'd use a slower motor speed to get the same data rate.

Xbox - DVD. XB360 - DVD. If UMD's aren't being used to capacity, and I believe typically UMD games are about 500 MBs in size, we're looking an XB-like situation. 2GB flash should be fine for launch, and larger capacities can be introduced later on with production advances.

There are plenty of ~1.8 GB PSP games though.
You don't build the system for the typical game, but the above average ones.

Just add $2 on the cost of each cart versus what you'd charge for the same thing on disc.

You'd rather they just raise costs than allow you to install the game? As well as putting filesize limitations back on developers encouraging smaller games?
And the $2 would only cover a 4 GB game. A 10 GB game would add another $8 compared to worst-case scenario of BLUMD.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Given how much x360 games don't even fill up 8gb I doubt a psp2 game would really need 10gb of storage. 4gb would probably be more than enough in the beginning. Also I don't see devs making shorther games on x360 because of dvd.

The carts might be more expensive but you'd save money on other things like shifty said and you will also save quite a bit on the drive unit I think. A quick google tells me a replacement umd drive costs 18 dollars. Not sure what the profit margins are but I'm sure it's multiple times that of what a cart reader would costs as I guess the readers in the DS and 3DS are not that much more than a normal cart reader. Those things cost like 1 euro.

 

[NeoTechni]

Also I don't see devs making shorther games on x360 because of dvd.

Eh? There have been many developers complaining about how small DVD is for 360.
360 also relies heavily on compression and it's harddrive for virtual memory. That's not really a good option for a handheld.

The carts might be more expensive but you'd save money on other things like shifty said and you will also save quite a bit on the drive unit I think. A quick google tells me a replacement umd drive costs 18 dollars

While it would make the system cost less, it makes publishing costs higher.
System savings go to Sony.
Publishing costs go on publishers/developers.
Big difference.

 

[eastmen]

I think some people are dreaming with 10 gig size games for a handheld. Thats alot of content to create for a game at a $30 price point.

I also don't know how cheap a umd is , they aren't pressed in the quanitys of even bluray and they have a caddy which will increase costs. A blu umd will cost even more as none are made. They would have to create new machines if current bluray plants can't press such small discs or take production off movie discs which I'm sure no one will be happy about.

On the other hand flash continues to get cheaper and we have 28nm nand coming in the next year


2GB card $6 for the consumer http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820183214

4GB card is $14 for the consumer http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820208555

8GB card is $16 for the consumer http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820134960

As you can see the price of flash is dirt cheap. With 28nm flash coming in the future they will get faster and cheaper and larger

Speed is also something to think about about .

Those class 4 cards are capable of 4MB/s with very small seek times . Umd is 11mbp/s which is what 1.375MB/s and I don't believe its a constant speed through the disc and being optical it would have huge seek times.


Flash ram if priced right would be the smart move for the psp 2. I don't see the average game being more than 2-4 gigs and unlike umd flash size and speed will continue to increase in the future At launch 8 gigs might cost to much , however a year after it may no longer have a price premium to 4 gigs or any such premium that matters. 3 years after release 16 gig games might be possible. However with a umd set up whatever you have at launch is what your stuck with.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I believe there's a whole thread discussing this already though. It'd be worth digging it up rather than repeating the same arguments again!

That thread is here. Oh look, it's the same people arguing! And that thread got locked because it went around and around in circles. No-one here is going to budge from their POV. Every argument has already been made. Hence end of discussion, agree to disagree regards flash vs. optical. I'll consider reopening that thread once we hear what Sony are actually doing, to give those who were right a chance to gloat.

 

[Npl]

I dont think the UMD-Caddy costs alot, pretty sure the whole UMD can be produced for less than 1$.

If they go flash-carts then theres some more trouble:
* Sony needs to flash them, which requires time. far more complicated than umds which are ready-to-go once they are pressed and packaged for less than the cost of the blank flash-cart
* How will you prevent someone copying the electronics or reflashing the Roms ? discs are hard to replicate (you need a plant), replicating electronics can be done pretty cheap with FPGAs.
* To make such replicas (or "backup"-devices) harder you might need to add some active logic to the carts, changing encryption, possibly multiple keys in case one got leaked, etc.
* That means Sony either needs to have an off-the-shelf flash-chip and one chip doing the security, or a single one-chip solution which should be custom so you cant just build your own (and thus way more expensive than the off-the-shelf one).

Bear in mind that those concerns are added on top of the possibility of the console getting hacked to play "backups", its about making "backups" that are indistinguishable from originals.
Just look at about any cart-based console and you will see that you only need to put a 3rd party device on top to play "backups". Compared to the rest of the consoles which always need to be directly hacked in some way.

Edit: Sorry Shifty, I started typing before you posted

 

[NeoTechni]

That thread is here. Oh look, it's the same people arguing!

I didnt really consider this an argument.

And that thread got locked because it went around and around in circles

If it was locked, how were we supposed to use it? :Þ

I dont think the UMD-Caddy costs alot, pretty sure the whole UMD can be produced for less than 1$

The entire UMD cost less than $2, 6 years ago. Flash has almost cost up to that in cost/capacity. By now UMD has surely gotten cheaper.

 

[eastmen]

There are valid arguements about flash. Piracy is not one of them. My ds requires additonal hardare to constantly be there to play hacked games. My psp requires nothing that didn't come with the psp .

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I didnt really consider this an argument.

Logical Argument.

If it was locked, how were we supposed to use it? :Þ

You can ready every argument you put forwards, every counter argument, and not have to type the same stuff out again here because it's already been said.