All purpose Sales and Sales Rumours and Anecdotes [2019 Edition]

[goonergaz]

I mean games Sony set out and created as part of a family-friendly image they are trying to cultivate. Four out of your 6 or third party. Tearaway may be child friendly but it's not a hugely popular kid/family title. LBP 3 is even quite complicated and difficult to play.

If I had to list games that define the image of PS4, I'd go straight to GoW, HZD, Uncharted, TLoU, Spider-Man, Fortnite and Apex Legends, COD, FIFA. The same for NSW, I'll go to Mario Odyssey, LoZ, Mario Kart, Labo, Pokémon, Fitness Ring thing, Splatoon, Arms. All NSW's headline titles are child/family friendly. They are two distinct images. Even if both consoles cater to all the family equally well, the marketing has had a completely different focus for both consoles with Sony deliberately targeting the core gamer, and Nintendo deliberately targeting the family and light fun audiences.

Sorry, I read your comment out of context. However, I do take issue with your LBP 3 comment - my 2 & 3 year old nephews enjoyed playing it...but I understand you've always had issues controlling Sackboy so can see why you might think it's difficult for kids!

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Sorry, I read your comment out of context. However, I do take issue with your LBP 3 comment - my 2 & 3 year old nephews enjoyed playing it...but I understand you've always had issues controlling Sackboy so can see why you might think it's difficult for kids!

People forget that kids are rubbish at mostly everything and yet most kids do not respond to repetition and failure in the same way as an adult. Kids do get frustrated but many have a different tolerances which probably comes down to lack of expectation, which in part is down to lack of life experience. If kids could objectively review their output of their time as an adult would, they would never make it their teens. They are seemingly geared to enjoying activities that adults have long since lost the ability to enjoy. As adults we forget what that is like, until you have kids yourself and you remember glimpses of things you've long since forgotten as you relive new experience with your kids.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think you're hugely overthinking this. I really doubt many people really thought "wow PS4 is the best place to play games" rather than "it has some cool games and is affordable, plus <insert friends names> have one". I genuinely don't know anybody who buys into marketing so absolutely.

I wasn't talking about Sony's marketing, but how PS4 has become the preferred platform in consumers mind, chiefly because it's where their friends are. The fact PS4 is the second fastest selling console of all time alludes to that.

I'm confused by this. Could you explain what you think Nintendo has/does image-wise and what Sony/PlayStation does not?

All their marketing. I can recall one advert from Sony that was sociable which was for that mobile phone tie in. I think half the adverts I've seen for Nintendo Switch, if not more, have been about social gaming.

When you say "that is not what the PS4 is known for" what you're really saying is "I don't know how people who are not like me are using their consoles" - simply because you have no visibility of it. And why would you? But how is that any different on the Switch?

No, I'm going by 1) ,marketing and 2) wider conversations on the topic. I linked to an article recommending NSW as 'the best console for the family.'

When you have young kids, the Switch suddenly becomes really quite limited. If you create kid accounts on both stores and see what's available, the PS4 is by far the better option because it's got six years worth of games. There's dross on both consoles and once you exclude this from Switch, it's slim pickings I assure you. PS4 still has tons of quality content.

Library doens't matter as much as image. If people perceive the NSW as the best console for the family, because they've seen TV adverts with kids building cardboard things and people having fun getting fit with Ring Fitness and that's what their NSW owning friends enjoy, and they perceive PS4 as the core console because they see on TV it's got games like HZD and TLoU2 and never see it used with fun party games, and everyone raves about it's awesome AAA single-player exclusives, then even if its library is crap versus PS4, they can only go by what they 'know'.

Anybody recommending a Switch to somebody with a young child is doing them a disservice. It's the recommendation of somebody who has not looked at what content is available on Switch compared to its competition.

Which is everyone, because people don't go looking up the full game libraries of a machine before picking one. There are countless games on PS4 I've never even heard of. The platform image is based on the titles that get attention and are associated with it. Like XBox was a platform for shooters...even though there were many other games available, that was public perception that kept coming up time and again on forums.

What is it that PS2 and Switch has that PS4 does not?

EyeToy - no controller, likght-hearted fun that anyone, even granny could play, advertised as being fun for everyone, even granny.
Buzz - party game for everyone, advertised as something for the family.
SingStar - Karaoke executed superbly when it was quite rare, advertised with young people and bundled with brightly coloured PS2s.

By comparison, SingStar exists on PS4 but I didn't even notice it had been released, and there's clearly not the buzz around it that there was around the first one.

Labo - interactive cardboard things advertised as ideal for children
Ring Fitness - more fitness-entertainment stuff where PS4 and XB1 seem to have given up, importantly, advertised with young and old enjoying it.

If you don't understand, I can't see what more I can say. I'll just leave these two links. If these don't illustrate the point that PS4 and NSW are very differently positioned, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Sony's PlayStation videos sorted in order of popularity



Nintendo's Switch videos sorted in order of popularity

 

[Deleted member 2197]

The Nintendo Switch has sold 41.6 million units, tripling the sales of the Wii U
October 31, 2019

The console in only 2 and a half years has sold 41.67 units, which is 3 times more than the Wii U’s 13.56 million, is almost double the GameCube’s 21.74 million units, and also overtook the Nintendo 64’s 32.93 million back in April of this year. Having sold 6.93 million Switch consoles this fiscal year so far, the Switch is likely to overtake the SNES’ 49.1 million units sold, by the end of the fiscal year – putting it comfortably in 3rd place for Nintendo’s home consoles.
...
With the PlayStation 4 recently becoming the second highest selling home console of all time, with 102.8 million units sold in 6 years, it’ll be interesting to see where the Switch will end up by the time it reaches its 6th year. At the rate it’s currently performing, the Nintendo Switch could certainly end up as one of the best selling home consoles of all time, by the time it reaches its end-of-life.

https://www.kitguru.net/tech-news/m...illion-units-tripling-the-sales-of-the-wii-u/

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I wasn't talking about Sony's marketing, but how PS4 has become the preferred platform in consumers mind, chiefly because it's where their friends are. The fact PS4 is the second fastest selling console of all time alludes to that.

Why do you attribute it to friends rather than cost? What data are you using? Stating the obvious, but it can't just be friends because nobody had one before it launched.

All their marketing. I can recall one advert from Sony that was sociable which was for that mobile phone tie in. I think half the adverts I've seen for Nintendo Switch, if not more, have been about social gaming.

We are seeing very different adverts but perhaps this isn't surpassing. I generally watch ad-supported TV later at night where there is more likely to be advert aimed at adults. Likewise, on the internet, we may both be served a Nintendo ad but we may see very different adverts simply based on how Google perceives us based on the sites we visit and search history. Add in, not all ads for games on Switch actually come from Nintendo. As I mentioned before, the swastika-ladden ad for Wolfenstein was put out by Bethesda.

No, I'm going by 1) ,marketing and 2) wider conversations on the topic. I linked to an article recommending NSW as 'the best console for the family.'

I looked at the article on the article on the website and I thought you included it as an ironic joke given the number of ad-sponsored links for Nintendo gear.

The picture is of mum, dad and two kids holding Pro controllers, one kid is clearly four or five years old and the article extols the many kid-friendly games then lists many games not suitable for the younger kid, including Zelda Breath of the Wild (12), ARMS (12) - even Pokken is age 7. The article concedes that PS4 and XBO have kid-friendly games too, but so does Switch, so Switch is better.

Table-top mode and Handheld mode? No argument, super useful although not great for my family when I take the Switch when I go travelling - which I do. The article mentions Party mode, which is cool, but neglects to mention it's barely supported outside of Nintendo's first party games. Overcooked 2 supports it and umm.. ummm..

The article mentions that Switch not having Netflix it is a big deal, but handily explains - and I quote - "However, upon closer examination, the Switch’s inability to support streaming video services didn’t really seem like that big of a deal". Ok. Dismissing problems as not problems is the way forward for humankind!

Winner: NINTENDO SWITCH - cue a bunch of sponsored links only for Nintendo console bundles.

Come on..

Library doens't matter as much as image. If people perceive the NSW as the best console for the family, because they've seen TV adverts with kids building cardboard things and people having fun getting fit with Ring Fitness and that's what their NSW owning friends enjoy, and they perceive PS4 as the core console because they see on TV it's got games like HZD and TLoU2 and never see it used with fun party games, and everyone raves about it's awesome AAA single-player exclusives, then even if its library is crap versus PS4, they can only go by what they 'know'.

Actually, when it comes to buying a console with some games, the library is kind of important. It's incredibly difficult to buy age-appropriate games if there aren't many because your choices are then very limited. Unless you like Italian plumbers, you're kinda screwed with a Nintendo Switch.

How bad is the situation on Switch? It's bad and Nintendo do not make it easy to work out how bad it is without buying a Switch first. Their website is dubious where in places you cannot trust the age-restriction filter and in other places they chose not to openly advertise the age ratings of games on splash screens - like the Witcher not being tagged at 18 unless you click on it but games rated 'E' having a big 'E' on them. The following two examples work in the UK region:

Go to the UK site and filter down to Nintendo Switch consoles bundles and you'll reach this webpage showing 12 bundles. Now click PEGI 3 which should now only show those bundles but it lists the Zelda Bundle which is a PEGI 12 game so shouldn't be there.

Ignoring this, let's try to find out how many actual PEGI 3 and PEGI 7 games there are. The website only lists the games available as physical products which is why there are so few. Using the same website, listing all [physical] games gets you here. Now click PEGI 3 and/or 7. Lots right? Wrong, For me PEGI 7 shows 50 items. Fifty isn't bad but hang on, many of these 50 are the same game with different bundles accessories - Luigi's Mansion 3 appears seven times.

Which is everyone, because people don't go looking up the full game libraries of a machine before picking one.

And you shouldn't have too, but if you're buying a console for a family that includes young kids you will be wanting some games for them then you hit this issue we have. You may assume there are a lot more age-appropriate games on the digital store but to find out to need to buy a Switch, setup a child account with age restrictions, then search the eShop from within that account. Let me save you the bother, there is a lot of dross there and few quality titles.

you don't understand, I can't see what more I can say. I'll just leave these two links. If these don't illustrate the point that PS4 and NSW are very differently positioned, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I don't understand because you've not explained it and you seemingly are unable to explain it. I can explain the problem simply: as a parent of a seven year old the Switch has a very poor games library. Given the next age-restriction from 7 is 12, I don't see this hugely improving any time soon. PS4 has a couple of order of magnitudes more age-appropriate games, of the type she likes, at much cheaper prices to boot. What value is image if it's a lie?

As for your two screen shots, of PlayStation and Nintendo YouTube official channel videos sorted by popularity, the reason you're seeing so much "family friendly" stuff on the Nintendo channel (compared to PlayStation) is because popularity is views which rack up over time and that is why most of the videos are years old. Most of Switch's M-rated content has only appeared in high volume in the last 9-15 months and is compromised of a fair amount of ports and re-releases, where searches to YouTube videos will route you to the original platform trailer nineteen times out of twenty. You know what happens if I go to YouTube and search for "Bayonetta switch"? Nintendo's ad doesn't even appear on the front page.

Your image of Nintendo being family-friendly is very dependant on the age of the youngest member of that family. If it's 12, things are much better.

 

[Globalisateur]

...

PS2 was that family-focussed console, with something for everyone. Nowadays, that console is NSW. Nintendo set out to create a product to be that console, while Sony set out to create a hardcore console for core gamers. Both succeeded and have reaped the rewards f their efforts. But now going forwards, of PS4 is to outsell PS2, it needs to either find a lot more gamers who like its style of offering, of create a whole new family-friendly image to sell to a different market segment and reach the same audience PS2 sold to.

I'd agree with you in theory. But I wonder if it's not some of it (not all of course Switch is a great console on its own) comes from tradition so from us. As we played Nintendo games when we were young, we now buy Switches to our children and family because we think kids, like us, should play Nintendo games. Yes Nintendo has great games for kids indeed, and directly labelled as kid games. No doubt about that.

Second maybe we also buy them those toys because of nostalgia and we want to play again good old Mario and Zelda...with them. Often when people make gifts, they choose something they would like for themselves, and not something that other person would like.

When I visit friends who have a Switch, they or their kids usually don't play their Switch. But let me tell you that when my 8 year old niece and her parents visit us, she loves playing some of my PS4 games like GTS or The Witness for hours. She (and even her parent) have so much fun with those and we play those 'adult' games together like if those were some good old Mario Kart or Zelda.

In summary, do we want our kids to play on Switch in part because it's a society tradition a bit like girls should wear pink and boys blue thing ?

 

[mrcorbo]

Yeah, you're right. I was confusing PlayStation Vue with Sony's movie streaming service. Vue wasn't even available in the UK. My position on the number of content streamers stands though. There is now just too much quality content spread across too-many subscription services with subscribers wanting the good content subsidising the less appealing content. And we in the UK doesn't even have it as bad as the US. E.g. we get Star Trek Discovery bundled into Netflix and HBO content tends to end up with Sky, Amazon Prime and/or Netflix.

I don't know what the answer is.

This, I agree with. Ironically, streaming media is becoming more like games with content being tied to a platform. It's funny that precedent and expectations make it bother me so much more in this context than it has in games, though the fact that the limitation is purely artificial has something to do with it. At least games have the excuse being tied technically to a specific platform. You don't make a TV show in a way that makes it technically tied to Netflix.

It really is a shitty deal on the consumer side to be restricted in the content you are able to access, though. It is one area where the best interest of the consumer and of the platform holder are directly opposed.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

After the console will never reach 99 dollars like the PS2. And the PS2 is out of reach but they can probably sold 125 to 135 millions PS4 before the end of life of the console. They will be at 110.2 millions march 2020 if they reach the forecast.

To add to that, the PS2 was helped tremendously in the US as it often went on sale for 79 USD and occasionally lower than that (Black Friday sales). I'm pretty sure one chain store went down as far as 49 USD for PS2 on one of their Black Friday sales.

But PS2 could still somewhat benefit from node shrinks that still came relatively fast even at the end of it's lifetime (at least compared to current day node shrink frequency). Raw materials was also cheaper back then. And it didn't require nearly as complex a cooling solution as the PS4. Basically, PS2 was a lot easier to cost reduce than PS4 likely ever will be.

Regards,
SB

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Mate - you're telling me that you can't see at a glance, in an instant, the difference between positioning? Visually, PS4 is all about muted and dark colours and 'seriousness', whereas Nintendo's is awash with primary colour and kid-friendly visuals and family type images. The third most popular video on Nintendo's channel is Parental Controls! The fifth most popular video is their Super Bowl commercial showing happy families playing together. The entire page is 'kiddie' whereas the Sony page is 'adult'.

I can't recall a single Sony advert positioning PS4 like this one...

What was the PS4 advert showing the family friendly, play with your kids, side of PS4?

As for dismissing the link because it had relevant adverts attached, what about these?

https://www.reviews.com/video-game-consoles/kids/
"Best for Families - Nintendo Switch"

https://www.theguardian.com/games/2...s-2018-playstation-4-xbox-one-nintendo-switch
"Is the console primarily for young children, teenagers or adults? Or do you want something everyone can play together? If it’s the latter, the Switch is a great family option"

https://www.anysoftwaretools.com/best-game-console-for-kids/
"For family-friendly fun that supports more than one player out of the box, the Nintendo Switch is going to be the optimal choice."

In summary, do we want our kids to play on Switch in part because it's a society tradition a bit like girls should wear pink and boys blue thing ?

I don't care either way - this is a discussion about PS4 long-term sales. Regardless whether people should see NSW as the family friendly console or not, if they do and the audience represented by PS2's last five years chooses NSW instead of PS4, PS4 will not beat PS2 sales.

That's all this discussion is about! It's not about which is the better platform for any demographic, or what consumers should be buying, or how the platform libraries compare, but what audience will PS4 be selling to compared to PS2. My argument is Nintendo has positioned NSW to be the family friendly console, present in all its top-selling, first party exclusive games and public-facing marketing. Its YouTube library is all with kid-friendly primary colours and videos of happy family gaming. Its third most viewed video is about parental controls fer crying out loud! PS4 OTOH is presented with young adults in high-adrenaline, adult, core gaming.

 

[Xbat]

If they could get PS4 down to $150 then 150 million would definitely be reachable. I doubt they can though.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Mate - you're telling me that you can't see at a glance, in an instant, the difference between positioning? Visually, PS4 is all about muted and dark colours and 'seriousness', whereas Nintendo's is awash with primary colour and kid-friendly visuals and family type images.

Do you own a Switch? It sounds like you're confusing Switch with 3DS which was indeed "awash with primary colours". Switch has two themes: white (default) and black. In both the icons are not colourful and iconography is rather plain. This is the Switch UI. I don't know about your PS4 but mine is chockablock of dynamic themes, the Loco Roco one being a favourite - which I think came with the game.

The third most popular video on Nintendo's channel is Parental Controls! The fifth most popular video is their Super Bowl commercial showing happy families playing together. The entire page is 'kiddie' whereas the Sony page is 'adult'.

Marketing isn't delivered under oath, it doesn't have to be true. It's marketing. The number of views on Nintendo's video for parental controls isn't some promise to have a large number of quality games for kids my daughter's age.

What was the PS4 advert showing the family friendly, play with your kids, side of PS4?

Why do I need an advert to tell me that I can play games with my kid? Who needs to be told that?

My argument is Nintendo has positioned NSW to be the family friendly console, present in all its top-selling, first party exclusive games and public-facing marketing. Its YouTube library is all with kid-friendly primary colours and videos of happy family gaming.

Sure, that's Nintendo's narrative, but the reality is that number of age-appropriate games for ages nine and under is mighty thin on the ground. Many of the games that people tout for "younger kids" can't actually be used by kids under nine because they are age restricted by Nintendo's own parental controls. A bunch of "kids games" games have been listed and I've patiently put the age restrictions into the thread to illustrate that even Nintendo don't think a lot of these games are suitable for someone my daughter's age, or her friends. When we play as a family, we play something that is age-appropriate for my daughter and games like 1-2 Switch get old really quickly. Mario Kart is great if you all like kart racers - as I mentioned before, we don't. We do like Overcooked 2 (age 3+) but sometimes you want something different that isn't Mario. Then you're scrabbling around for options that everybody concerned, her her and us, her and her friends, all want to play together. Fortunately PS4 has a massive library of age-appropriate games for kids aged 7.

Before posting my testimonials, consider that kids have different ages. For example, the Guardian article by Keith Stuart? His youngest is four years older my mine so it's easier for him to recommend this for kids. His kids would gave faced far fewer limits on what they can play.

Its third most viewed video is about parental controls fer crying out loud! PS4 OTOH is presented with young adults in high-adrenaline, adult, core gaming.

Cool, all her friends can watch this instead of playing something on PS4.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Do you own a Switch? It sounds like you're confusing Switch with 3DS which was indeed "awash with primary colours".

I was talking about the YouTube pages. If you missed the connection with the continuation from the argument presented in the post you replied to, I repeated it explicitly in my response to Globby that you quoted...

Its YouTube library is all with kid-friendly primary colours and videos of happy family gaming.​

Marketing isn't delivered under oath, it doesn't have to be true. It's marketing. The number of views on Nintendo's video for parental controls isn't some promise to have a large number of quality games for kids my daughter's age.

The fact Parental Controls is the third most viewed video on Nintendo's channel shows people visiting Nintendo are far more interested in parental controls than those visiting Sony, and/or Nintendo are far more interested in promoting their family-friendly image.

Why do I need an advert to tell me that I can play games with my kid? Who needs to be told that?

Some 50 million people yet to buy a console wondering which would be the best one to get. For those who aren't particularly into video gaming but want something for the family to enjoy, one of these companies shows lots of different people across all ages having social fun together (along with solo gaming), while the other doesn't. Sony does not communicate that father and daughter can sit down together and have fun playing games on their console. That's not Sony's marketing message.

...the reality is...

That does not matter!! What matters is what Joe Public 'knows'. If Joe Public is misguided into thinking the NSW is better for their family than the PS4 thanks to Nintendo's marketing and the media's repetition that the best console for families is NSW, that's more likely the advice they'll go with. I doubt the general populace will Google "best games console for families", see these recommendations, check out the YouTube channels, and then go and research the game libraries and write down all the games they think would work for them and find NSW is lacking.

 

[goonergaz]

I love you @Shifty Geezer and I totally respect everything you say but...

That does not matter!! What matters is what Joe Public 'knows'. If Joe Public is misguided into thinking the NSW is better for their family than the PS4 thanks to Nintendo's marketing and the media's repetition that the best console for families is NSW, that's more likely the advice they'll go with. I doubt the general populace will Google "best games console for families", see these recommendations, check out the YouTube channels, and then go and research the game libraries and write down all the games they think would work for them and find NSW is lacking.

I thought they bought what their friends have...which more than likely is PS4? Also why would an adult not interested in gaming want their child to game? And if they did maybe they'd ask for advice and the advice would likely come from a PS4 owner (statistically) who will tell them about the kids games on PS4.

To reach the widest audience, Sony needs to sell to adults and children/families.

Why does the widest matter when they are selling to the most? Maybe next gen they will push that, but this gen has been about the core gamer, last gen was also very much a 'light hearted' gen.

Nintendo deliberately targeting the family and light fun audiences.

Sony have created some 'fun and light hearted' experience adverts (LBP3 and Rocket league spring to mind), but that's not where the money is and it would (kind of) go against the 'for the players' tagline.

So essentially you're saying Ninty are targeting a niche audience, the only thing untapped by Sony & M/S - the scraps as it were...but let's be honest, could they make the Switch some cool core gaming console if they tried? No. It's stuck where it is, so they have to play it that way.

The reality is that most households will have a console of some choice, purchased by an adult who will likely play/use it primarily, and if they have kids they will buy kids games on that console.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I thought they bought what their friends have...which more than likely is PS4?

It's no one thing, but a choice made from information gathered. that'll cover friend suggestions to online/media advice, and marketing. Marketing is hugely influential which is why companies spend ridiculous amounts on it. Hence my initial use the term 'image' to cover the public perception, whether that comes from marketing, friends, social media, or wherever.

Also why would an adult not interested in gaming want their child to game?

the child wants a console.

And if they did maybe they'd ask for advice and the advice would likely come from a PS4 owner (statistically) who will tell them about the kids games on PS4.

Or they'll look online. Or they'll have seen a TV advert showing parents playing with their children on Switch and think they'd like to give that a go.

Why does the widest matter when they are selling to the most? Maybe next gen they will push that, but this gen has been about the core gamer, last gen was also very much a 'light hearted' gen.

Let's sum up this argument that seems to be getting lost in a NSW versus PS4 bog.

PS4 has so far sold 100 million consoles. The question is whether it can sell more than PS2, so 160 million consoles.

Sales have peaked, so now it's a case of staving off a rapid downtime and maintain a long tail of persistent sales. PS2 had two advantages over PS4 as I see it. 1) ~It was cheaper. 2) It was the one console for all, both in terms of what it offered and in terms of how it was positioned.

So, if you were a solo gamers want play solo games, and you had a choice of XBox, GC, or PS2, the recommendation would be PS2 (library).
Like JRGs? Get a PS2.
Racers? Get a PS2.
Kiddy games? Get a PS2.
Girly games? Get a PS2.
Party games? Get a PS2.
Non-controller games (Dance mat, EyeToy). Get a PS2.
Online shooter? Get an Xbox (if you're in the US)
Coop games? Get a PS2.
Games where you jump on mushrooms? Get a GameCube.

Pretty much whatever you wanted, PS2 would provide, and be the best option for that preference, and most importantly was backed by Sony both in terms of marketing and game development to appeal to the widest audience. We talked about exclusives and system-sellers on this forum multiple times, how it's not necessarily one game that a console is bought for, but one game that's the deciding factor, and PS2 very publicly had everything including SingStar and EyeToy and Buzz. So for years if you wanted to game, any sort of game, even if you weren't sure what types of games you would like but you felt it was worth a go, PS2 was generally the best option. This was true well past PS3's release where PS2 could be a cheap toy and DVD player as well. PS2 also had pretty much no competition.

If we look at where PS4 is positioned now, it does not have a strong public perception of the platform for everyone because Sony have focussed on being the core gamers' platform. Meanwhile, Nintendo have focussed on presenting NSW as the gaming platform for families. That means over the next few years, the audience looking for a more casual experience are being encouraged to buy NSW over PS4. And even if we think there's no mind-share difference between NSW, and consumers are just as willing to buy PS4 for 'the family' as they are to buy NSW for 'the family' (ignoring my evidence to the contrary ), PS4 is still going to be facing competition with that audience where PS2 had none.

A forecast that PS4 will outsell PS2 needs a good argument that, despite strong competition from NSW, PS4 is going to sell another 60 million units. Is that really likely if Sony don't seek to broaden their image to encompass a wider audience? Is this generation going to grow to 160 million PS4s plus 100 million or whatever NSWs?

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Unless I misunderstand you @Shifty Geezer, you think Nintendo's marketing is pretty good at misleading a portion of families with young kids that the Switch is a good choice for them even if it actually is not. If this is your point, I don't disagree.

My point, is what does this matter? I reckon people bought Nintendo DSs for kids all the time with nary a second thought. The DS looked like a toy, was cheap and when you looked at the game shelf, either real or virtual, or was re-assuringly packed full of games like My Little Pony, Unicorn Adventures, Pokemon and Kitten Simulator 7. With almost no analysis you know the DS is perfect for a kid. But Switch is different, principally because it's actively marketed to young adults and it costs several hundred schmeckles - way outside of impulse buy territory for most people.

If a parent watches one of the Nintendo ads and likes the idea of spending some quality time having fun with their child playing games together, the moment you get the point where you are picking a console, any accessories and then the important part, trying to find actual age-appropriate games that you think you would enjoy together, the image shatters. Because you're looking at a short list Italian-plumber games, a few decent offerings (like Overcooked 2) and a lot of dross with low reviews. Maybe that's enough for some.

I like the Switch, it's a good console for me and the missus but it's a poor choice of console for families that include kids of my daughters age if the purpose of a console if to be used a lot by the kids for games and/or Netflix. It's literally the worst choice out there, regardless of how many people swallowing marketing. An Apple TV and controller would be a better option - a much better option. Every alternative option is to better and cheaper and more capable.

 

[goonergaz]

It's no one thing, but a choice made from information gathered. that'll cover friend suggestions to online/media advice, and marketing. Marketing is hugely influential which is why companies spend ridiculous amounts on it. Hence my initial use the term 'image' to cover the public perception, whether that comes from marketing, friends, social media, or wherever.

Of course, I should have said it was a throw-away comment

the child wants a console.

So what if the child wants one? If the family is already not with one there's likely a good reason, like they don't buy consoles - as such the child is unlikely to be overly exposed to consoles and unlikely to want one...and if they do it would likely be what their friends play on.

Or they'll look online. Or they'll have seen a TV advert showing parents playing with their children on Switch and think they'd like to give that a go.

Not really, most humans will seek advise from a like minded person - not just watch an advert and buy something based on that, we're not robots, I've never once purchased an item based on an advert.

PS4 has so far sold 100 million consoles. The question is whether it can sell more than PS2, so 160 million consoles.

It's not as black and white as that is it? How big is the potential market compared to when PS2 was out? At the end of the day the PS4 will comfortably be the 2nd best selling console ever. PS2 had literally no competition and free-reign.

Sales have peaked, so now it's a case of staving off a rapid downtime and maintain a long tail of persistent sales. PS2 had two advantages over PS4 as I see it. 1) ~It was cheaper. 2) It was the one console for all, both in terms of what it offered and in terms of how it was positioned.

That doesn't mean the PS4 doesn't have it's own advantages (as I already pointed out like a whole extra year on the market before PS5 comes out and it's still selling reasonably well at a very much higher price and also has some massive titles to come).

So, if you were a solo gamers want play solo games, and you had a choice of XBox, GC, or PS2, the recommendation would be PS2 (library).
Like JRGs? Get a PS2.
Racers? Get a PS2.
Kiddy games? Get a PS2.
Girly games? Get a PS2.
Party games? Get a PS2.
Non-controller games (Dance mat, EyeToy). Get a PS2.
Online shooter? Get an Xbox (if you're in the US)
Coop games? Get a PS2.
Games where you jump on mushrooms? Get a GameCube.

I don't see much difference here, just replace PS2 with PS4 and Gamecube with Switch...you could add 'want to play portably? get a Switch - however if you're a sucker for buying into a weird idea that PlayStation, though completely smashing sales and having a history of all the above has suddenly dropped those games then, well...there's not much to say. PlayStations brand is stronger than you think it is.

Pretty much whatever you wanted, PS2 would provide, and be the best option for that preference, and most importantly was backed by Sony both in terms of marketing and game development to appeal to the widest audience. We talked about exclusives and system-sellers on this forum multiple times, how it's not necessarily one game that a console is bought for, but one game that's the deciding factor, and PS2 very publicly had everything including SingStar and EyeToy and Buzz. So for years if you wanted to game, any sort of game, even if you weren't sure what types of games you would like but you felt it was worth a go, PS2 was generally the best option. This was true well past PS3's release where PS2 could be a cheap toy and DVD player as well. PS2 also had pretty much no competition.

Again replace "wanted, PS2 would" with "want, PS4 will". Marketing is mostly important when you need to push a message, Sony do not.

If we look at where PS4 is positioned now, it does not have a strong public perception of the platform for everyone because Sony have focussed on being the core gamers' platform.

Have you got some market research to back this up?

A forecast that PS4 will outsell PS2 needs a good argument that, despite strong competition from NSW, PS4 is going to sell another 60 million units. Is that really likely if Sony don't seek to broaden their image to encompass a wider audience? Is this generation going to grow to 160 million PS4s plus 100 million or whatever NSWs?

I'll say this, personally I think there's more chance of PS4 selling 160m than switch selling 100m, and Switch has the advantage on being Nintys only handheld and home console wrapped into one. What does that tell you about how well PS4 has done?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Unless I misunderstand you @Shifty Geezer, you think Nintendo's marketing is pretty good at misleading a portion of families with young kids that the Switch is a good choice for them even if it actually is not. If this is your point, I don't disagree.

My point, is what does this matter?

Because it means the market is not totally dominated by PS4 the same way it was by PS2, meaning it's unlikely PS4 will sell as many consoles. During PS2's reign, if someone was wanting a console for someone, whether teen or grandpa or girl or dog, PS2 was a good option and everyone knew it. Now, if you want a console for a young adult core gamer, you get PS4. If you want a console for a family with a six year old and a nine year old, you get...either PS4 or Switch, with Nintendo going whole hog on trying to convince people to get the NSW.

PS2 managed to sell just shy of 160 million units with a platform that appealed to everyone, that Sony invested in appealing to everyone. PS4 faces much stiffer competition and isn't pushing its image as hard in some areas. Will PS4 concede sales to NSW and will it therefore be able to hit 160 million lifetime sales?

Have you got some market research to back this up?

There's not a lot of public info. Demographics for NSW favour females and were trending towards Nintendo standards (younger players) at the beginning of this year after selling mostly to young adults at launch. I don't know about older gamers. However, when you look at the totalitly of evidence - the marketing, the types of games being made by the parent companies, the way the consoles are talked about in social media/press - the weight of evidence lies more in support of my argument than not.

I'll say this, personally I think there's more chance of PS4 selling 160m than switch selling 100m...

Why? NSW is selling just as well as PS4 so far.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Because it means the market is not totally dominated by PS4 the same way it was by PS2, meaning it's unlikely PS4 will sell as many consoles. During PS2's reign, if someone was wanting a console for someone, whether teen or grandpa or girl or dog, PS2 was a good option and everyone knew it.

The PS4 is a good option, and so is the Xbox. You're narrative comes across that PS2 appealed wider than PS4 (and Xbox) but I'm not seeing a dearth of games that existed on PS2 and are missing from PS4. Someone could probably dig-up some incredibly niche single-game genre but PS4 offers so much that PS2 did not: creationist games like Little Big Planet, Dreams and Minecraft, multiplayer, PSVR and streaming video and music content. You have demonstrated ignorance of some of what PS4 has when you cited Singstar as a PS2 plus despite Singstar launching years ago on PS4. You probably blame Sony for you not being aware but they market things like Singstar to their demographic which is young kids, particularly girls so unless you exist that the cesspool of marketing you can be forgiven for not knowing about it. Now ask yourself, how much else do you not know because you exist outside of the demographic for which products are targeted?

Now, if you want a console for a young adult core gamer, you get PS4. If you want a console for a family with a six year old and a nine year old, you get...either PS4 or Switch, with Nintendo going whole hog on trying to convince people to get the NSW.

And the point of marketing is to make sure people consider your product as an option. Few people will blindly buy a console without considering options. And a modicum of research is all it takes to work out the Switch is the most expensive console option, with the most expensive accessories, with the least number of most-expensive games, that lacks Netflix. And has few games for actual young kids. BARGAIN!

 

[PSman1700]

GC and Xbox sold about 24m units, the ps2 was kinda alone that gen. Also the ps4 probably sold 100m cause xone didnt offer that much competition, with the switch just starting to do that now. The ps2 was a family console aswell as hardcore.
The switch seems a more popular console for the family in my area, wouldn't surprise me if it actually comes close to ps4 sales or even surpass it. With the pro many also upgraded to account 4k tv's.
In general a console is more popular for the all-round casual market, hence the reason the switch, ps2, nds etc sell so fast/well. The hardcore market isn't as big as the casual one.

I stand by DF's educated guess that the PS4 probably won't ever out sell the PS2.

 

[goonergaz]

There's not a lot of public info. Demographics for NSW favour females and were trending towards Nintendo standards (younger players) at the beginning of this year after selling mostly to young adults at launch. I don't know about older gamers. However, when you look at the totalitly of evidence - the marketing, the types of games being made by the parent companies, the way the consoles are talked about in social media/press - the weight of evidence lies more in support of my argument than not.

So no evidence then. I mean, even though PS4 has sold alongside the Switch it's still selling quicker than PS2 - so against much stiffer competition it has (and continues to) sell quicker than PS2. That's a fact.

Why? NSW is selling just as well as PS4 so far.

Just a hunch. I believe the Switch may have a shorter life-span and I also think whilst it's doing well at the moment eventually Ninty will dry up on these amazing family games you keep talking about. Yes, I'm essentially saying it's Wii 2...either way I expect PS4 to handsomely outsell Switch at the end of the day, and again, that's with this also being Nintys only handheld.

GC and Xbox sold about 24m units, the ps2 was kinda alone that gen.

Yes, this is what I keep saying - so what was that gen total? 210m ish - this gen we're already close to that and will exceed it.

I stand by DF's educated guess that the PS4 probably won't ever out sell the PS2.

I'm not against their prediction - just the argument (or rather lack of).