Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2024]

I loved the first Horizon, it was even my personal game of the generation last gen and one of the best stories I've played out in a video game.

But I'm really struggling with Forbidden West as it's not really doing anything new and and I don't find the lure of the story and world as strong this time around.

And the visuals are nothing special, the hero lighting on Aloy especially is annoying AF.

The last gen lighting and light leakage in general is also laughable. I've just finished collecting the first 3 sub-functions and have yet to have a single 'wow' moment in regards to the graphics.
 
The PS5 version of HiFi Rush sports improved shadows over the Series X/PC version.


Developer: "The game needs more work, has bugs that need fixing."
Microsoft: "Fuck 'em"
Developer: "No Phil, you don't understand, it's for Playstation"
Microsoft: "Lol okay my bad go ahead".

That Pentiment bit sums it up best: Xbox version never gets 120hz. PS5 gets it at launch. Then it finally comes to Xbox, where it actually runs better. Would never have happened without Playstation.

MS really don't give a fuck.
 
Being an Xbox fan is a major L right now. Imagine being treated like a second class citizen by your own console manufacturer.
I think it's more that ongoing work on a title has to be financially justified, and it's easier to do this when there is revenue from a new release. It's like how MCC got a new lease of life from being released on PC.
 
I don't think the casual gamer, who makes up the extreme vast majority of owners doesn't really give two shits to be honest.

I think the current majority of Series system users are core XB users, and not simply just casual users.

Regardless, Microsoft should still be offering worthwhile upgrades for their userbase and games if you bought into the belief that "Series X" is the best home for gaming. And it looks truly lazy and bad having your own IPs looking/running better on a supposed overclocked 8TF RDNA 1 competitor machine.
 
I think the current majority of Series system users are core XB users, and not simply just casual users.

Regardless, Microsoft should still be offering worthwhile upgrades for their userbase and games if you bought into the belief that "Series X" is the best home for gaming. And it looks truly lazy and bad having your own IPs looking/running better on a supposed overclocked 8TF RDNA 1 competitor machine.

Is Halo on PlayStation? Forza? Gears?

Does it not look bad for Sony when their own IP's look and run better on PC?
 
Does it not look bad for Sony when their own IP's look and run better on PC?
No. For most PS users, they've no idea about Sony IPs on PC. For those who know about it, they expect more expensive and capable hardware to be producing better results. Indeed, it'd look bad on Sony if games didn't run better on PC, as if they were either incompetent or deliberately hampering PC to make PS look good.

Shortbread's point is that MS could be delivering better results on their own console but aren't (until making more of an effort for the release on the rival, weaker console). Why did it take a PS5 release on Pentiment for it get a 120 Hz upgrade on XB? Okay, that ones pretty easy to argue as who the heck need 120Hz on Pentiment?! But better quality on HiFi is a head-scratcher, no?

(Again, that can be argued as part and parcel of general development. Games improve over time if not dropped. Ongoing work on PC & XB likely stopped while focussing on PS5. Any improvements found for PS5 will then be patched into the other platforms in all likelihood, unless those platforms are considered dead. I'm not particularly agreeing with Shortbread, but your above counter looking at PS games on PCs doesn't work IMO)
 
I don't think the casual gamer, who makes up the extreme vast majority of owners doesn't really give two shits to be honest.
I think it's more that ongoing work on a title has to be financially justified, and it's easier to do this when there is revenue from a new release. It's like how MCC got a new lease of life from being released on PC.
While I agree with both of you, it's just bad optics. As far as I'm concerned, Xbox is basically dead as a platform. I ditched my series x because I didn't want to get caught bag holding. I was looking at the used market place in my area to see what the X consoles were selling for and you can find the it for $200-$250 less than the msrp. Even the market thinks it's dead. It's failing to hold it's value at all.
 
Is Halo on PlayStation? Forza? Gears?

Does it not look bad for Sony when their own IP's look and run better on PC?
If rumors are to believe, Halo and Forza are coming to PS5. If that happens, that will be the death blow of Xbox as a platform. Already, there's no point in buying one at all because all their games are on PC. Services will never be a reason to buy a gaming device for the masses. You need to have games that make you stick out and if you don't, sales will sputter. Microsoft killed Xbox when they started releasing games on PC and Gamepass day 1. It removed all incentives to purchase the console and trained the userbase not to buy games. A poorly thought out strategy by Spencer. Now, if you look at the software sales charts, you'll see that time and time again, the series consoles move the least amount of software. To the point where some developers have simply not released a series version because it wasn't worth it. They should have stuck to the tried and tested Movie strategy. Big box sales first, then later release to services.

As for Sony, if they make the mistake of going all in on the same direction as Microsoft, they'll suffer the same fate. You can release some games day 1 on pc where it makes sense to do so. Helldivers 2 is a great example of this but, if you train your audience that the best place to play is elsewhere, don't be surprised when they go elsewhere.
 
Is this a DF thread?
It's what DF are talking about!
Microsoft markets the Xbox Series X as the most powerful games console on the market, so the idea of its PS5 titles being in any way better or even slightly improved over the Series X versions isn't the preferred state of affairs. Surely first-party exclusives should offer complete parity - or even an improved experience - on what Microsoft has marketed as the most powerful console on the market?
...
It's also crucial that Microsoft maintains a reputation that Xbox is the best place to play its own games, especially as it seems clear that more will transition across from Xbox to PlayStation in due course. On that note, we'll soon see more Xbox titles coming to PlayStation 5: Obsidian's Grounded and Rare's Sea of Thieves. Much like Hi-Fi Rush, they're both Unreal Engine 4 titles, and it'll be interesting to see how they translate.
 
Grabbed it to test on my 3060/12400F, and impressions are...decidedly mixed atm.

1) "Waiting for shader compilation" on the first 5+ loads of the game, regardless if if was just resuming to the same area I was slowly walking around for 30 minutes prior. So getting back into the game was a ~2 minute endeavor for a good handful of reloads.

That's a fairly strange one, I'm interested to hear other peoples experiences of this. For myself I've not tested extensively since my wife is playing it first (as always) but as far as I could see from my own test sessions, after the initial latest driver install, I only got the one shader comp/"waiting for shaders to compile" notification after which the game loaded pretty snappy (not that I've timed it) on each subsequent load. That's on a 5800X3D which I guess isn't massively faster than your CPU, and of course all in the same testing session following the driver install.

3) The dynamic res is too fine grained wrt GPU occupancy, constant drops with it enabled as it's trying too hard to keep the GPU busy. Only forcing DLSS performance mode can reduce these.

Agreed. I'd argue DRS is just broken here actually. In my admittedly limited test area (but this shouldn't matter), with DRS on at 60fps target I was constantly below 60fps. However with it turned off at DLSS Quality, I was constantly above. The conclusion being that the game was running at native res with DLAA despite being below 60fps - which matched the performance I was seeing when I manually forced those settings.

4) Even with Nividia reflex + boost, seems to have worse controller latency than PS5 (playing with wired XSX). HZD also had this issue. Granted, even on PS5, HW's default controls always feel 'floaty', so perhaps different controllers could explain some of it, the response curve between them usually differs IME*. Without reflex it's of course worse.

*Nah, tested with a wired Dualsense. The latency sucks.

I also noticed controller latency being pretty horrible...... until I enabled a frame rate cap with RTSS. Once I set the game at a 60fps limit via RTSS with settings I could consistently hit >60fps with (3840x1600 with DLSSQ and max details in my case) the latency was subjectively fine, and well within my expectations.

6) The cardinal sin - microstutter. 60fps is not an entirely properly frame paced 60fps, or rather the camera animation isn't properly paced. Slowly pan the camera around and you'll get occasional small little camera skips and hitches at points. Nvidia reflex makes it far worse, but even without they can crop up (and input latency is pretty brutal without). Rivatuner cannot fix this either. Yikes.

This is not something you'll likely pick up on unless you're playing with a controller on a fixed refresh rate display, prob why Death Stranding's controller stutter was missed when the PC port dropped too. Like DS, there doesn't appear to be frame time jumps when these happen, it's a camera animation issue. But it's there.

Honestly not seeing this with the RTSS frame cap. It's smooth as butter for me in that instance. I see it very clearly without RTSS for certain, even at 100fps+ with FG but not with the cap.

I suspect it's a matter of how much excess you have over the frame rate limit, although I don't have a huge amount at my current settings. Have you tried settings where you are constantly in excess of 70fps (without DRS) unlimited and then limiting to 60fps?
 
This week's show is dominated by Xbox news in the wake of a new interview with Phil Spencer strongly indicating a big change in direction for the Xbox platform and by extension, its hardware. There's also talk of what form an Xbox handheld may take, while leaked photography of a white Xbox Series X 'All Digital' console brings about bafflement from the team.
0:00:00 Introduction
0:00:50 News 01: Phil Spencer wants other game stores on Xbox
0:30:36 News 02: Phil Spencer’s gaming handheld wishlist
0:44:21 News 03: White digital-only Series X leaks
0:55:32 News 04: Testing Outcast performance
1:13:31 News 05: Sunsoft’s Uforia: The Saga 2 released!
1:20:26 Supporter Q1: Are Switch cartridges or Blu-ray discs better for long term preservation?
1:27:25 Supporter Q2: What do you make of claims that developers are considering dropping Xbox support?
1:33:33 Supporter Q3: Why didn’t Sony upgrade the CPU further on PS5 Pro?
1:40:43 Supporter Q4: How would Microsoft’s cloud technology be leveraged in a next-gen console?
1:47:59 Supporter Q5: Could Switch 2 receive games at a slower pace than the original Switch?
1:54:39 Supporter Q6: Is Nvidia’s market dominance a bad thing for competition?
 
A lot of thoughts on the game stores on Xbox:

John is definitely a nostalgic person. He worries that having many game stores on the xbox would mean more trash games, but acknowledges that's already the case on Nintendo. It's already the case on Steam, which is a device he loves, which also allows you to run almost the entire history of trash games. Honestly I think he's just being defensive about the closed-platform console because that's what he grew up with. That's fine, but the days of having super special hardware are long gone. Designing processors is just too expensive, which is why they've all settled on variants of generic pc parts. I think the time for protecting the closed system is long gone, because it doesn't actually bring any benefits. You no longer get some special box with special instruction sets that are incompatible with everything else, so you basically gain nothing and lose an open platform. It seems like quality control for the stores are basically non existent anyway, because tons of games launch with horrible problems. They even talk about Outcast launching in a really bad state on Playstation.

I also don't know if having many stores means a steam deck style ability to run any old pc game. It could be the case that they'll still have specific xbox apis, so you need to run an xbox version, but you'll be able to buy them from any store. I do think it would be smart to basically open it up, and use it as an opportunity to improve the pc experience as well. Basically have the PC version and the Xbox version be the same game, but the Xbox version launches with a specific preset that has guarantees to run well.

My main concern is the Xbox app on PC is absolute garbage, so I have no idea if they can pull this off. Also wonder how they'll control other software on the Xbox or if they'll care. Would you be able to run some random application? How would they guarantee resources for games if people starting loading a whole bunch of bloat.

My hope is that Microsoft is taking this very seriously and they come up with a stripped down version of Windows that's tailored for gaming, and that anyone can use and make the xbox apis open so if someone is using an APU with HUMA, then they can take advantage of the same code path an xbox would run. Modern software is a nightmare, everything getting bloated, worse and with increased latency despite getting faster and faster PCs. I think Valve is the only company that really gets it. I would consider switching to a steam os if it didn't have issues with anti-cheat software. But maybe Microsoft can use this as an opportunity to unify and improve the ecosystem. Ironically the Xbox 360 tile interface was so responsive, and I'd rather use some version of that that most modern interfaces.
 
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