Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2024]
- Thread starter Shifty Geezer
- Start date
I think that's kind of what they're doing, if this direction is true. Wasn't there a rumour of them ditching the Xbox brand for Windows Gaming? I'd guess the next console/handheld is just a surface type device. It'll probably have a nice way to manager drivers, which is a big failure point on PC. It'll have a nice "big picture" type gaming interface, and maybe a stripped down OS with its own update cadence, but basically using standard windows kernel and components. They'll have some way to advertise optimized games on the storefront, maybe even on third party stores. Technically Microsoft could run an approvals process for multiple storefronts, but I'm not sure how much it would be worth it since that barely seems to add value on consoles now anyway. Lots of problematic games are released and get patched post-launch or just wither away and die.
Edit: This is why I think the efforts should be made generally available. If there's a stripped down Windows for Gaming OS, then let me buy it for my custom PC. If there's an API to support HUMA architectures in DX, then make it available for any Windows PC running an APU. The console will just be a gaming PC with some of the friction removed (finding appropriate settings, driver management, a reduced surface of windows components that break, easier game launching and management). Basically a Steam Deck running Windows.
Question : why have hardware manufactures not embraced windows update I've never had it offer to install the latest nvidia driver for example
Flappy Pannus
Veteran
Yep, well below maximum GPU usage % and I still see it. Slowly panning the camera, especially after stopping when running in the world will reliably produce 2-3 micro-skips. Turning on reflex makes it basically constant.
I'm actually not sure why companies don't deliver their drivers primarly through windows update. Big mystery to me. Not that I'm a huge fan of windows update.
-Should not be a "stripped down Windows" needs to fully embrace the Windows platform
-Should provide a nice dashboard front end which makes all the mundane tasks in Windows tailored for a "console like" set top box
(this means it can be used for any form factor, Console, Handheld, Laptop, PC Desktop)
-Work with Steam and Epic, and any other client store/publisher (Ubisoft, EA, ect) to perhaps work out a method where, from these identified devices only, MS get a 3% cut or something low like that from each game sale, and the rest goes to the publisher/Valve,Epic, ect.
I think the future for MS is to look at themselves as a publisher only, and not a platform holder.. even though they have the platform in Windows. Try to make money on hardware sales (handheld/console-ized PC) and just selling games through these other stores on all platforms.
I said it before here, they need to do what their other competitors can't easily do. And Windows is the key to that. Open it up, make your money EVERYWHERE.. force your competition to do the same.. and they wont be easily able to.
-Should provide a nice dashboard front end which makes all the mundane tasks in Windows tailored for a "console like" set top box
(this means it can be used for any form factor, Console, Handheld, Laptop, PC Desktop)
-Work with Steam and Epic, and any other client store/publisher (Ubisoft, EA, ect) to perhaps work out a method where, from these identified devices only, MS get a 3% cut or something low like that from each game sale, and the rest goes to the publisher/Valve,Epic, ect.
I think the future for MS is to look at themselves as a publisher only, and not a platform holder.. even though they have the platform in Windows. Try to make money on hardware sales (handheld/console-ized PC) and just selling games through these other stores on all platforms.
I said it before here, they need to do what their other competitors can't easily do. And Windows is the key to that. Open it up, make your money EVERYWHERE.. force your competition to do the same.. and they wont be easily able to.
@Remij I think it should run the same kernel and same components so you CAN run any application you want, but I think it should have a ton of the windows bloat removed and be aimed primarily at gaming. Once you allow other companies to put their stores on the devices I have no idea how you could demand a cut off every game sale. You've essentially removed payment processing, user services, customer support etc from the mix and you still want money?
Cant believe they are taking Phil so seriously.. He talks a lot about pie in the sky stuff. Dont hold your breath of 3rd party store fronts ever happening.. Valve or Epic have zero incentive to support Xbox anyway if this was actually happening
Consoles are not general purporse hardware like phones or macs so regulators cant force anything there.
Consoles are not general purporse hardware like phones or macs so regulators cant force anything there.
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Oh the bloatware sure.. there's no need to have a bunch of stuff that you'd never use on there.. but it definitely needs to be able to be used like a typical Windows PC. Microsoft only needs to add what's necessary for their front end dash to operate and handle other clients/stores efficiently.. and control focused things.
They could work out a deal for a cut from those sales made only from those devices. Basically, Valve for example would look and see how many of which games were bought from these devices (just like they do the Steam Deck) and could give MS a small percentage for each one. They're essentially providing Valve and other stores a device which targets different market demographics. If they consolidated Xbox and PC so that if you developed for one platform, you target both form factors.. it's not unreasonable. Publishers would also save money by not having to develop specific bespoke Xbox versions.
Why wouldn't Valve want to allow their games to be sold on Steam through MS' future console?
PC Steam client sales (70% goes to Publisher, 30% goes to Valve)
Xbox console Steam client sales (70% goes to Publisher, 27% goes to Valve, 3% to MS)
MS' primary focus should be making money off the hardware, and being the massive publisher that they are.. selling all of their games on ALL platforms, including PS and Nintendo. They would make FAR more money this way.
exactly that. I know a couple who are HARDCORE, and I mean hardcore console gamers and got a Steam Deck and they treat it like a console -the girl uses it more- though I think they don't actually know what they actually have in their hands.
Windows has many advantages for gaming, and I'd go as far as saying that they could have both productivity and gaming in one place, even some Xbox temporal "exclusives" there first, but you gotta remove any friction. Call it Xboy or Xbop ('cos of PC xD) or whatever, make it open with a series of guidelines a la MSX for hardware makers -they'd get all the industry supporting them- and that's it, don't split Xbox and PC, so console gamers feel less angry about their "exclusive" games running on a PC.
Hope the next Xbox can somewhat succeed, but if they create another console, even if it's a handheld, I don't see the point, I'd rather have the best of consoles (UI) and the freedom of PC -mods, tinkering-. PC gamepass store in its current form sucks, so they have to fix that too, and find a way for mods to work when they involve the .exe.
that seems to be the case. Still, loyal fans will remain if they make a plug & play machine.
On a different note, I am more used to the classic Rich, John and Alex, the typical DF staff, but I gotta say that I find Olie amusing -in a good way- as hell.
If they have to compete with Steam in terms of storefronts, they cannot subsidize the hardware. It will not work out.
Ultimately, none of this serves anybody better than the current situation whatsoever. Not PC gamers and especially not console users. It would be terrible and the confusion surrounding it would be some of the worst PR Xbox has ever had.
But there is still one big problem by opening the platform. The issue is that no matter how many will stay, the profitability for the platform holder will be hugely hindered, because they are no longer the main beneficiary of software sales on the platform. They will have no control of the sales and pricing strategy to maintain a healthy business. Trying to compensate the software losses by turning on hardware profitability is also impossible. That's why it destroys fully the business.
I really don’t see the point in an “open” Xbox. They’re already just custom PCs running Windows. The only difference is a more refined user experience and a cohesive ecosystem (store, friends, multiplayer etc). So an open Xbox is just a Windows PC with a better gaming UX. MS has failed miserably at that combination for a long time now.
There’s only two moves that make sense to me. They can double down on the closed console experience and deliver better results with more expensive & powerful hardware. Essentially try XSX again but actually make it work. Or they can go all in on cloud gaming offering different subscription tiers with the same streamlined console experience and give up on the box under the tv. In both cases they still make money from publishing on all platforms.
Selfishly I would also love to see Microsoft take on Valve and make Windows a truly gaming oriented OS but I have little faith that will happen.
There’s only two moves that make sense to me. They can double down on the closed console experience and deliver better results with more expensive & powerful hardware. Essentially try XSX again but actually make it work. Or they can go all in on cloud gaming offering different subscription tiers with the same streamlined console experience and give up on the box under the tv. In both cases they still make money from publishing on all platforms.
Selfishly I would also love to see Microsoft take on Valve and make Windows a truly gaming oriented OS but I have little faith that will happen.
Microsoft are doing what they can to "change the game" so to speak. They're not going to win competing against Sony or Nintendo in their traditional markets.. so the goal is to change the definition of the market. Look at what MS have been doing.
- Started with Gamepass, trying to change how people view purchasing and experiencing games from traditional models
- Building themselves up to be one of the biggest publishers with the most studios out there. (Idea is a constant stream of revenue coming in from game releases)
- Fighting alongside Epic for mobile platforms to be open to multiple stores
- Releasing games on other platforms. (Their platform being closed/open means less if they start doing the bulk of their business on other platforms)
- Now the talk of allowing other stores on their platform
Their idea is to begin to utilize Sony and Nintendo's platforms to make their money, while they push for change in the market to adopt the idea that these platforms should be open...starting with their own platform. This simultaneously allows them to look like the good guys to regulators, which enhances the probability that they purchase more studios in the future and become even bigger. But what this also does is completely stifle Sony and Nintendo's ability to run closed box traditional models as they did before by making it seem anti-competitive. This is advantageous to MS, because suddenly Sony and Nintendo can't make as much money as before.. as other publishers wouldl do their own thing on those platforms. Essentially it would eventually lead in the boiling down of Sony and Nintendo to just making any real money off their own games, and not as much off 3rd party games.
Then, you have a playing field in which Microsoft is actually far bigger than the other two.
true. The possible solution to the problem you set out is maybe that if you take into account most people prefer a more streamlined experience, a plug & play one, you can add a frontend with your own games, something that MS has, where people don't need to do anything special to go to other stores, and maybe integrate say Epic and GoG there, taking a percentage of the sales, it becomes more feasible.
More open is worse in the sense you mention, but it can reach more people which may be more important than taking a bigger cut and one thing compensates the other.
Dunno about GoG, but Epic Store despite giving away some great games isn't gaining traction, and maybe they could prefer taking some money from a sale on a MS device rather than just giving games away while other games aren't selling well on their own store.
People that have lots of free games of the Epic store would certainly love to have a machine that recognised those games they already have
GoG which is my favourite store, aren't making history when selling games either.
Same thing again, let people connect to their GoG store and let them play the games they already have at GoG, they will end up buying other games where MS can't compete -retro games specially-. This would also make people use GoG more, since for those who have a PC launching another store app isn't appealing, because of laziness and so on.Steam though..., they make a LOT of money already so they won't care,
but this is where MS could let people tinker with the device, and use their Steam games, mods and stuff outside of the "easier to use" environment. If the proposition is attractive enough, quite a few Steam users might end up using a windows console device more and again getting more games in the MS store and not on Steam. Imho, Steam is the main competitor of MS.Another locked console means competing against Sony and Nintendo, and they have no chance even in the USA, imho. The rest of the world associates Xbox with mediocrity for whatever reason. You could do both, and just puts the UI of a console, which I'd love, in Windows.
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so right...
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rog.asus.com
Just imagine on s laptop and their small screen, what a laptop 4090 like in this beast model could do at 1440p, crazy framerates.
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They should sell games everywhere but I don’t see how that will have any bearing on Sony and Nintendo. The regulators won’t intervene because those aren’t general computing platforms. And gamers aren’t asking for it. Who wants multiple stores on their PlayStation?
The only things that exist are open and closed platforms. A "general computing platform" only exists because it was open in the first place. The goal is obviously to get Apple to allow publishers to conduct their own business on their mobile platform and compete with Apple under even terms. Same can be true for consoles. Let's assume Microsoft goes ahead with this idea... then they will have already put it into practice. Of course the publishers would LOVE that.. then it begins to change the dynamic. If it became successful.. then suddenly Sony and Nintendo are compromising to keep publishers on their platform... then eventually it happens completely.
There's also the point that future generations don't want walled gardens. You think the young generation gives a single damn about PS Store and Xbox Store and Nintendo eShop and loyalty to them? No, they only give a shit about their Fortnite account, or their Roblox account, ect. ect... Those are the "platforms" they care about... and they expect them to follow them everywhere.
I'm saying this much... eventually, 3rd party publishers will become tired of splitting huge amounts of their revenue with closed platforms... when the vast majority of players out there will be on "general computing platforms" in the future. MS switching to a "general computing console" will help facilitate that. Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony.. all have to think of a future where a closed console no longer exists.. they have to plan for it and be ready, because it will get there eventually.
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