Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2024]

Rich, John and Alex discuss the stunning Marvel 1943: Rise of Hydra debut trailer, potentially big upgrades to FSR via its upcoming 3.1 upgrade, while Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth's tweaked performance mode (via a new patch) is analyzed. Have image quality concerns finally been addressed? Meanwhile, we attempt to draw a line under the whole PS5 Pro/GTA6 60fps situation, while John shares his experiences with Nvidia's AI-powered Covert Protocol demo. Can AI move beyond upscaling to provide new gameplay experiences?
Click to expand...

0:00:00 Introduction
0:00:44 News 01: Marvel 1943: Rise of Hydra stuns in debut trailer
0:18:56 News 02: AMD announces FSR 3.1
0:30:52 News 03: Latest PS VR2 update enables PC access
0:40:37 News 04: Could GTA 6 hit 60 FPS on PS5 Pro?
0:57:46 News 05: Covert Protocol demo shows off AI characters
1:10:17 News 06: Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth gets new graphics options
1:16:05 Supporter Q1: What should Microsoft and Sony do to differentiate their next-gen hardware?
1:36:44 Supporter Q2: Why isn’t Microsoft making more out of their consoles’ machine learning capabilities?
1:43:09 Supporter Q3: Should Sony invest in frame generation? Does PSSR suggest a lack of faith in AMD’s upscaling tech?
1:49:24 Supporter Q4: Could backwards compatibility actually hold back Switch 2?
 
Shortbread said:


0:00:00 Introduction
0:00:44 News 01: Marvel 1943: Rise of Hydra stuns in debut trailer
0:18:56 News 02: AMD announces FSR 3.1
0:30:52 News 03: Latest PS VR2 update enables PC access
0:40:37 News 04: Could GTA 6 hit 60 FPS on PS5 Pro?
0:57:46 News 05: Covert Protocol demo shows off AI characters
1:10:17 News 06: Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth gets new graphics options
1:16:05 Supporter Q1: What should Microsoft and Sony do to differentiate their next-gen hardware?
1:36:44 Supporter Q2: Why isn’t Microsoft making more out of their consoles’ machine learning capabilities?
1:43:09 Supporter Q3: Should Sony invest in frame generation? Does PSSR suggest a lack of faith in AMD’s upscaling tech?
1:49:24 Supporter Q4: Could backwards compatibility actually hold back Switch 2?
Click to expand...
This is quite interesting so far. I'm about half way through the video just at the end of the part where they discuss GTA 6 60fps. Once again they discuss the cpu limit theory and John mentions that the dev friends he's spoken to had mentioned that the cpu isn't really giving them problems. There was then a counter argument proposed that it was due to the length of cross-gen. The discussion then delved into speculation and what not. I found it interesting that on one hand, we have devs who are actually working on games saying that for the most part, the cpu is not a problem. On the other hand, those not developing on the platform are arguing it's a problem.

At the end of the day, this cpu limit theory is not one that I can ascribe to based on the evidence. Look at Dragon's Dogma 2 that released recently. The game actually does not look great at all. The NPC density, the ai density, it's just poor. The frame rate and frame times are all over the place both on PC and console. All of these are tell tale signs that the developer is seriously struggling with optimization. The problem is clearly the implementation and not the hardware. The same can be said of many other so called cpu limited games for example, Gotham Knights. A game which pales in comparison to it's predecessor from a decade ago in features, polish, density and somehow an argument is being made for cpu limits.

Now does this mean that games won't appear that could be cpu limited on the consoles. Obviously not, it's entire probable that cpu limited games could appear. I mean look at the new Marvel game that was announced. It might well run at 30fps but who knows, that game could be gpu limited way before it's cpu limited looking at those effects/rendering quality. The point is games that are limited by the cpu are far too few and far too infrequent to be used as the foundation for any cpu limit narrative. We're in year 4 of this gen and supposedly, the next gen xbox is coming out in 2 years. The gen is almost over according to microsoft and we're likely to continue to breeze by with the vast majority of games having 60fps modes.
 
Shortbread said:


0:00:00 Introduction
0:00:44 News 01: Marvel 1943: Rise of Hydra stuns in debut trailer
0:18:56 News 02: AMD announces FSR 3.1
0:30:52 News 03: Latest PS VR2 update enables PC access
0:40:37 News 04: Could GTA 6 hit 60 FPS on PS5 Pro?
0:57:46 News 05: Covert Protocol demo shows off AI characters
1:10:17 News 06: Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth gets new graphics options
1:16:05 Supporter Q1: What should Microsoft and Sony do to differentiate their next-gen hardware?
1:36:44 Supporter Q2: Why isn’t Microsoft making more out of their consoles’ machine learning capabilities?
1:43:09 Supporter Q3: Should Sony invest in frame generation? Does PSSR suggest a lack of faith in AMD’s upscaling tech?
1:49:24 Supporter Q4: Could backwards compatibility actually hold back Switch 2?
Click to expand...
Like I already talked about previously here, TFlops are dead. Long live the new metric: TOPS!

Next Xbox console should be focused on beating PS5 Pro 8-bit 300 TOPs. But they'll actually need to focus on the most important part: the software part with them beating Sony's PSSR. Here I think Sony will have years of technological advance in that area. Who knows how many years they are working on AI upscaling.

About software (APIs) being the most important part of a console, it's incredible that Richard still doesn't understand that:
we live in a world where PS5 could actually outperform Xbox or have higher quality RT just does not compute to me, something has kinda gone wrong from that perspective especially when you are using the same parts supplier
Click to expand...

I fear that with MS next console we are going to see a similar predicament with PS5 Pro using a mature AI upscaling suite vs what MS will use. MS will likely have more TOPS, but will their APIs be efficient enough to actually beat Sony's PSSR? And about RT Sony will likely still lead the console scene with more efficient APIs (like there is a good chance they'll use Insomniac RT APIs on PS5 Pro).
 
Globalisateur said:
Like I already talked about previously here, TFlops are dead. Long live the new metric: TOPS!

Next Xbox console should be focused on beating PS5 Pro 8-bit 300 TOPs. But they'll actually need to focus on the most important part: the software with beating Sony's PSSR. Here I think Sony will have years of technological advance in that area. Who knows how many years they are working on AI upscaling.

About software (APIs) being the most important part of a console, it's incredible that Richard still doesn't understand that:


I fear that with MS next console we are going to see a similar predicament with PS5 Pro using a mature AI upscaling suite vs what MS will use. MS will likely have more TOPS, but will their APIs be efficient enough to actually beat Sony's PSSR? And about RT Sony will likely still lead the console scene with more efficient APIs (like there is a good chance they'll use Insomniac RT APIs on PS5 Pro).
Click to expand...

From that quote, I think Rich was implying that Microsoft being a key maker of API's, software, development systems, and other computer-related matters and having the closest ties to Nvidia, AMD, Intel, and other chipmakers when it comes to developing current and future gaming related features, shouldn't be having these issues within these areas, or having less than performant hardware when compared to Sony offerings. Yes, Series X should be eating PS5 live (unequivocally) in overall metrics on paper, but it doesn't. PS5 and Series X for the most part are similar in performance and visually.

The real problem as mentioned by Rich and company, is that both companies are too reliant on AMD hardware. Shopping at the same store, you're bound to match your competitor. So, I can see Microsoft approaching Nvidia or Intel (if they haven't already) to possibly develop a more performant SOC/APU than AMD. And truth be told, a new XB with Nvidia based silicon would probably eat PS6 alive if Sony went with non-custom / straight off the shelf AMD components. So, it maybe in Sony's best interest to keep requiring specialized hardware from AMD if their IPs are still lacking key features and performance, or seek out Nvidia or Intel as well.
 
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Shortbread said:
From that quote, I think Rich was implying that Microsoft being a key maker of API's, software, development systems, and other completed-related matters and having the closest ties to Nvidia, AMD, Intel, and other chipmakers when it comes to developing current and future gaming related features, shouldn't be having these issues within these areas, or having less than performance when compared to Sony offerings. Yes, Series X should be eating PS5 live (unequivocally) in overall metrics on paper, but it doesn't. PS5 and Series X for the most part are similar in performance and visually.

The real problem as mentioned by Rich and company, is that both companies are too reliant on AMD hardware. Shopping at the same store, you're bound to match your competitor. So, I can see Microsoft approaching Nvidia or Intel (if they haven't already) to possibly develop a more performant SOC/APU than AMD. And truth be told, a new XB with Nvidia based silicon would probably eat PS6 alive if Sony went with non-custom / straight off the shelf AMD components. So, it maybe in Sony's best interest to keep requiring specialized hardware from AMD if their IPs are still lacking key features and performance, or seek out Nvidia or Intel as well.
Click to expand...
But they don't even match Sony by using a slighty more powerful harware from AMD. By using about about the same hardware, the key differentiator is actually the software and here PS5 won the RT generation by having more impressive games using RT (with Insomniac games). And this from the very start of the gen with Ratchet and Clank first gameplay demo. And this difference grew larger with their latest output: Spider-man 2. Also incredibly the tools argument seems to be seen in many of the latest 3rd party games using hardware RT, they run better or display better RT on PS5.

They failed at the I/O race by not even competing. Most Sony open-world games don't even have loading times, or a few seconds when they have them. That is to be compared with Starfield awfully frequent and long loading times on XSX.

Except by using (very expensive) Nvidia hardware in their next console, which I don't see this happening, I don't see MS beating Sony in either AI upscaling or RT (and Sony already are a generation ahead in I/O). What they could do is release their own portable machine and try to beat Steam Deck. But here again the strength of Valve machine is the software (with Steam and optimized Sony games like Spider-man running on it) not the hardware!
 
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Boss said:
This is quite interesting so far. I'm about half way through the video just at the end of the part where they discuss GTA 6 60fps. Once again they discuss the cpu limit theory and John mentions that the dev friends he's spoken to had mentioned that the cpu isn't really giving them problems. There was then a counter argument proposed that it was due to the length of cross-gen. The discussion then delved into speculation and what not. I found it interesting that on one hand, we have devs who are actually working on games saying that for the most part, the cpu is not a problem. On the other hand, those not developing on the platform are arguing it's a problem.

At the end of the day, this cpu limit theory is not one that I can ascribe to based on the evidence. Look at Dragon's Dogma 2 that released recently. The game actually does not look great at all. The NPC density, the ai density, it's just poor. The frame rate and frame times are all over the place both on PC and console. All of these are tell tale signs that the developer is seriously struggling with optimization. The problem is clearly the implementation and not the hardware. The same can be said of many other so called cpu limited games for example, Gotham Knights. A game which pales in comparison to it's predecessor from a decade ago in features, polish, density and somehow an argument is being made for cpu limits.

Now does this mean that games won't appear that could be cpu limited on the consoles. Obviously not, it's entire probable that cpu limited games could appear. I mean look at the new Marvel game that was announced. It might well run at 30fps but who knows, that game could be gpu limited way before it's cpu limited looking at those effects/rendering quality. The point is games that are limited by the cpu are far too few and far too infrequent to be used as the foundation for any cpu limit narrative. We're in year 4 of this gen and supposedly, the next gen xbox is coming out in 2 years. The gen is almost over according to microsoft and we're likely to continue to breeze by with the vast majority of games having 60fps modes.
Click to expand...
We've only just started the second year of actual next gen games, and using the extremely unreliable rumor about Xbox releasing a new console in two years is not a good argument that this generation is coming to an end soon. :/ For one, Xbox does not have the pull to define when a new generation starts. They just dont. They're a distant second to Playstation, and nobody, not even Microsoft themselves, are going to make games exclusively for this potential new higher spec'd machine for several years. I've also outlined before that if Xbox actually does release a 'new generation console' in 2026, it will be a complete and total disaster for a number of reasons. There's honestly not many worse choices they could make than that, and it will hurt the chances of developers making games specifically for it even more. But either way, this generation will keep rolling on regardless, likely more towards the end of the decade. So that's quite a long time before we actually get any shift away from these current consoles as a baseline, and quite a long time for developers to not actually utilize the CPU power beyond just helping push framerates.
 
Globalisateur said:
Like I already talked about previously here, TFlops are dead. Long live the new metric: TOPS!

Next Xbox console should be focused on beating PS5 Pro 8-bit 300 TOPs. But they'll actually need to focus on the most important part: the software part with them beating Sony's PSSR. Here I think Sony will have years of technological advance in that area. Who knows how many years they are working on AI upscaling.

About software (APIs) being the most important part of a console, it's incredible that Richard still doesn't understand that:


I fear that with MS next console we are going to see a similar predicament with PS5 Pro using a mature AI upscaling suite vs what MS will use. MS will likely have more TOPS, but will their APIs be efficient enough to actually beat Sony's PSSR? And about RT Sony will likely still lead the console scene with more efficient APIs (like there is a good chance they'll use Insomniac RT APIs on PS5 Pro).
Click to expand...
the thing is that, as Rich mentions, if we talk about APIs, MS helped to develop DirectX Raytracing, it has DirectStorage, Auto HDR and now the somewhat unnoticed DirectSR upscaling API.

Sony puts a bit more love in their first party games and it shows, they get people hyped. I have a GPU that matches the PS5 power, rasterization wise, when it comes to RT that's different and RT wise the PS5 is running those games as you'd expect in the AMD equivalent hardware -6600XT level-, while MS thinks of games as getting them to more people. Ghostwire Tokyo, which I have on Steam, has some nice RT and Raytracing looks much better on the PS5 than on Xbox. Why?

Sony are more like artisans, in that sense more similar to Nintendo, while MS are more like the average guy jack of all trades.

Control has a 15% more perfomance in RT mode on the XSX, but it's like the XSX has been left on the shelf. To me the key is what DF staff mentions in the video, if they are just using the supposed raw hardware advantage of XSX to display better numbers in dynamic resolution.... :rolleyes:

Shortbread said:
The real problem as mentioned by Rich and company, is that both companies are too reliant on AMD hardware. Shopping at the same store, you're bound to match your competitor.
Click to expand...
except for the SSD and a feature here or there, Sony could just make their hardware and create XSX based on it, and viceversa.

If you rob Peter to pay Paul, or viceversa, this happens. :mrgreen: In that sense this is a very meh generation, and the main difference is the craftsmanship of the software.
 
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Cyan said:
the thing is that, as Rich mentions, if we talk about APIs, MS helped to develop DirectX Raytracing, it has DirectStorage, Auto HDR and now the somewhat unnoticed DirectSR upscaling API.

Sony puts a bit more love in their first party games and it shows, they get people hyped. I have a GPU that matches the PS5 power, rasterization wise, when it comes to RT that's different and RT wise the PS5 is running those games as you'd expect in the AMD equivalent hardware -6600XT level-, while MS thinks of games as getting them to more people. Ghostwire Tokyo, which I have on Steam, has some nice RT and Raytracing looks much better on the PS5 than on Xbox. Why?

Sony are more like artisans, in that sense more similar to Nintendo, while MS are more like the average guy jack of all trades.

Control has a 15% more perfomance in RT mode on the XSX, but it's like the XSX has been left on the shelf. To me the key is what DF staff mentions in the video, if they are just using the supposed raw hardware advantage of XSX to display better numbers in dynamic resolution.... :rolleyes:


except for the SSD and a feature here or there, Sony could just make their hardware and create XSX based on it, and viceversa.

If you rob Peter to pay Paul, or viceversa, this happens. :mrgreen: In that sense this is a very meh generation, and the main difference is the craftsmanship of the software.
Click to expand...
But Control was years ago, that benchmark is no longer relevant. Lately most games using Hardware RT are either performing better or are better looking on PS5. I am talking 3rd party games like Hogwart Legacy, The Witcher 3 or Gotham Knights, not even using Insomniac games here. Something has gone wrong on MS tools, or Sony tools got better with time, much faster than MSs. MS has tools and APIs, sure, but they are less efficient and are getting worse?

Why is that when they could use a fraction of their infinite money to fund companies dedicated to optimize tools on their own hardware? Because as you say they are not interested into doing that. Getting TOPs hardware is going to be easy starting RDNA4+, but getting efficient AI upscaling is going to be the hardest part!

DavidGraham said:
RT mode runs 900p30

Click to expand...
Just add that game to the pile of GPU limited game perfect for PS5 Pro. 60fps mode with occassional drops in the fifties with ~1080p resolution and no RT. Perfect for PS5 Pro that will likely iron the FPS drops, add RT effects (for free) and substantially increase perceptual resolution with PSSR! We can see the RT/graphics modes are experimental on PS5! they are useless as they are capped to 30fps and are constantly suffering from Frame-pacing issues. Useless? or maybe not on the PS5 Pro version with the uncapped option!

EDIT: Not one mention about the fact that this game could be designed (with its modes) for PS5 Pro? Very odd. It's so obvious, maybe too obvious as most would guess it?
 
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Globalisateur said:
Just add that game to the pile of GPU limited game perfect for PS5 Pro. 60fps mode with occasional drops in the fifties with ~1080p resolution and no RT. Perfect for PS5 Pro that will likely iron the FPS drops, add RT effects (for free) and substantially increase perceptual resolution with PSSR! We can see the RT/graphics modes are experimental on PS5! they are useless as they are capped to 30fps and are constantly suffering from Frame-pacing issues. Useless? or maybe not on the PS5 Pro version with the uncapped option!
Click to expand...

There's no such thing as free when it comes to graphics rendering.

And like PS4 Pro, there's no guarantee that any currently released PS5 game will be updated to take advantage of PS5 Pro.
 
Insomniac has a few RT showcases, but most games have the same RT on both consoles. Stop with the bullshit narrative. Some of you are embarrassing yourselves.

PS is lead platform and the X extra power doesn't get used enough. Maybe Hellblade 2 will turn some heads.
 
Johnny Awesome said:
Insomniac has a few RT showcases, but most games have the same RT on both consoles. Stop with the bullshit narrative. Some of you are embarrassing yourselves.

PS is lead platform and the X extra power doesn't get used enough. Maybe Hellblade 2 will turn some heads.
Click to expand...
So far none of the released Series exclusives showed anything worthwhile either. Even in Halo Infinite, enemy models are oblivious of the actual environment light sources.

Hellblade 2 is the only game that stands out at least in terms of what non-gameplay trailers showed
 
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