Formula 1 - 2012 Season

[Phil]

He got extremely lucky with Webber being called into the pits to get him out of his way, then when Webber rejoined his accident basically caused the second SC - the lap after Vettel had come in for tyres. That put him a few seconds behind Raikonnen on the freshest (option) tyres of all the runners - he really should have gone on to win it had he not taken so long to get past Button.

He was very lucky that Senna didn't end his race much earlier as well.

I'm not sure what you are suggesting here - the accident wasn't caused by Webber. He was as much a victim in this just as everyone else. I'm also not sure what is wrong about the team bringing Webber in. He's out of contention for the WDC anyway - would we be expecting anything less? Seems a bit odd that Ferrari can practically run a one-man-team the entire season (or most of it), get their 2nd driver to perform extraordinary maneuevers to try to give his team mate an advantage in qualifying, yet god forbid that Red Bull took Webber into the pits giving Vettel a free pass.

I'm not a fan of team-orders either - but it'd be stupid to not have let Vettel past Webber, either by direct team order or any other way. He was the quicker driver (at that stage) and he was clearly on a run. In regards to both the WDC and the WTC, it was beneficial to let him through.

The point on fresh-option tyres isn't a simple one either. Vettels car was set up for overtakes, but the set-up also compromised his "clean-air" pace. This allowed him to get past the midfielders easily by having a higher top-speed, but would always prove to be difficult, if even slight disadvantegous against closer paced machinery like the McLaren or Ferrari. Overtaking Button was tricky because Button also had DRS when running close to Alonso, so Vettels DRS advantage was nullfied. Once Alonso pulled away from Button, Vettel closed the gap, but his compromised set-up ment that he fell behind slightly in the crucial parts leading up to the DRS zone, hence why he changed his approach and how he used his KERS to allow himself to get past Button.

The opportunity to get close to Alonso was there, but given how Button being able to use DRS nullfied his own advantage, made things too difficult.

 

[jimbo75]

He might have won but it's hard to say for sure judging by how hard a job he had getting past Button even with better tyres.

He didn't really pass that many people tbh - it looks good but how many of them took themselves out of the race? Must have been about 7 or 8. He passed Grosjean twice but the rest of the passes were on friendly Toro Rossos or the extreme back markers. Hulkenberg and Di Resta took themselves out of his path on the first lap. He had two attempts at taking out his front wing before he had to pit - how many people get two chances with their front wings?

He didn't need to pass Schumacher, Massa, Perez, Maldonado on the track. I mean really, who did he pass? Who that is actually quick? Alonso passed Webber and Maldonado - both of who had faster cars imo (granted Maldonado's tyres had gone). Vettel's only real pass of note was Button, but he was on older tyres...everybody else either got out of his way or fell off the track somehow.

 

[jimbo75]

I know the accident wasn't caused by Webber but if you think about it in terms of "luck" - Webber was pulled into the pits out of Vettel's way and then the next lap he was the cause of the safety car that allowed Vettel to pull right up behind the leaders. I know it wasn't Webber's fault, but it was his car that caused the safety car to come out after he couldn't avoid Grosjean.

 

[Gerry]

He was very lucky that Senna didn't end his race much earlier as well.

I think Senna was lucky Vettel didn't end his race earlier to be honest.

(granted Maldonado's tyres had gone).

Nothing to do with tyres (otherwise they'd have pitted him earlier). Maldonado had lost KERS since the first SC, so was about 0.4s a lap slower than he would have been and was pretty much a sitting duck down the straights.

 

[Phil]

He didn't really pass that many people tbh - it looks good but how many of them took themselves out of the race?

Who said anything about how many he passed or who he passed? IMO that's a fairly pointless argument. Vettel started from the pits or in other words back of the grid - who was he going to pass anyway, other than back-markers and mid-fielders?

As I already mentioned - his car was initially set up for raw pace, with the intention to being able to challenge for pole position. He then got penalized and with such a set-up, would have found himself at a huge disadvantage (Vettel's top speed was quite low in the speed-traps prior to the set-up changes in the race). So the team changed his set-up around, with the clear intention of him being able to pass as many cars as possible. This set-up would always be advantegous against back-markers and midfielders, but prove to be disadvantegous against the top teams, as a car set up for a higher top speed in the DRS zones meant that he would lose pace in the corners - hence why it was difficult to pass Button, despite newer tyres and a double DRS zone.

IMO - it was a lot of good fortune that Webber's incident with Massa caused Massa to spin. It would have been interesting to see if Vettel would have got passed Massa and how much time he would have lost there. Passing Webber was always going to be a non-issue, given team-orders.

So... no miracles here. I find it more impressive how Red Bull changed the set-up of the car and how that car performed. It needed a pretty much flawless drive from Vettel to capitalize on that, and he did just that - some messy overtakes and a broken nose here and there considered, and yet, still, he managed to get on the podium. It's all pretty pointless to argue however - had the team not faced the fuel issue, he would have started 3rd and with Hamiltons DNS likely would have won the race. Had he not broken his nose during the first safety-car period, he would have likely been even further up the grid by the end of the race.

 

[jimbo75]

Some would say that being allowed to advantageously change the setup of the car after being disqualified is a real problem with the rules that needs changing tbh.

edit - flawless drive?

He hit Senna, hit a DRS marker and went off the track to get past Grosjean.

 

[Phil]

One way or the other - he payed for it. By having to pit again for a new nose (especially because of hitting the billboard) or by letting Grosjean passed again. That makes the drive just even more impressive IMO. Imagine if it had been that flawless, he might have even ended up in front of Alonso (thanks to the safety cars of course)...

 

[Tahir2]

Red Bull should rethink qualifying strategy? Also excellent analysis on why the Ferrari is a dog in qualifying but on form during the race.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20210164

Article by Gary Anderson who designed Formula One cars with Jordan - a few million times better than the trash Mr Benson (chief F1 idiot) spouts in his soap opera style articles (normally loaded articles about Lewis Hamilton) at the BBC website.

 

[DJ12]

I think Senna was lucky Vettel didn't end his race earlier to be honest.

It's a known fact Vettel cannot overtake. The fact he's normally at the front means people often forget.

 

[Billy Idol]

It's a known fact Vettel cannot overtake. The fact he's normally at the front means people often forget.

Bullshit!

 

[DJ12]

They didn't call him the crash kid for nothing.

On Sundays evidence nothing has changed, he's just normally out the way in front.

 

[Billy Idol]

They didn't call him the crash kid for nothing.

On Sundays evidence nothing has changed, he's just normally out the way in front.

??? He went from last place to third in the last race ???

 

[Davros]

yes but he did that without overtaking

 

[Kaotik]

yes but he did that without overtaking

.......

 

[Billy Idol]

yes but he did that without overtaking

Yeah, must have been the red bull wings

 

[Phil]

This was Vettels race:

After lap 1 - Vettel passed DIR and GRO due to pit stops, closed the gap to the pack
2 - passed KAR, ROS pits
3 - passed PIC, SEN
4 - passed GLO, PET
7 - passed KOV
9 - VER pits
SC, VET is 12th
14 - VET pits, comes out last, closes to the pack
15 - passed DLR, DIR
16 - passed GRO, PIC
18 - passed GLO, PET (PET lost more places)
20 - passed KOV, VER, gained one position from HAM
21 - passed SEN
23 - passed RIC
25 - passed MSC, KOB pits
26 - MAS pits
28 - ALO pits
29 - BUT, MAL pit
30 - WEB, PER pit
31 - VET is 2nd
37 - VET pits
39 - SC, VET is 4th
52 - passed BUT

(courtesy of Intego over at F1technical.net)

 

[jimbo75]

So if you disregard the back marker Caterham's and Marussia's etc, and the Toro Rosso's diving out of his way...he basically passed Di Resta (don't remember seeing that one tbh - it looked to me like Di Resta was behind after the pit stop), Senna, Grosjean and Button on the track - with a car set up for straight line speed and faster tyres. In doing so he hit Senna and passed Grosjean off the track.

I guess that's why I'm not all that impressed.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I guess that's why I'm not all that impressed.

I guess there is something else in it... I mean Alonso going from 6th to 2nd, while overtaking Webber on lap1 and Maldonado with DRS after Maldonado started losing pace.

About 5min 28s and after is Alonso overtaking Maldonado

I wouldn't classify that as overtake of the year as the difference in speed is quite apparent. Alonso's verdict according to you:

"Gotta say this is impressive stuff by Alonso."

And Vettel going from last place to third with the previously mentioned overtakes is:

"I'm not all that impressed"

For the record I also thought Alonso had a good race, but can't really agree with your point of view here.

 

[jimbo75]

I was impressed by Alonso getting the most out of a slow car and hunting down Raikonnen. His overtake on Webber without DRS or KERS was probably one of the overtakes of the year.

Vettel on the other hand had the fastest car on the grid bar Hamilton and made a meal of passing people all day.

I'm no Alonso fanboy - as as Scot I'd much rather see Di Resta or one of the two McLaren drivers winning - but I recognise him as being the best driver on the grid and somebody who consistently gets more out of a bad car.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

What exactly even makes you say that Ferrari is a slow race car. Their race pace has been very good and it was good on Sunday also. His overtake on Webber was nice, but on Lap1 things are a bit different, Webber had just had a contact with Button and Alonso was able to be really close to him and got great speed from the drag, nothing extraordinary there, a good solid overtake.

No matter what Vettel does, he doesn't get too much credit for it. It's always due to others like Newey, when he wins and always his fault when he doesn't win. Look at the stats he's put out, can you really ask more from him. What would he have to do be viewed as one who get's a lot out of a car. Win every race by lapping the second?