The importance of UMD to PSP and its future *spinoff

[function]

I didn't say they were pulled. I said MS stopped it, as in, stopped adding games to it. Considering I even posted a link saying that, and bolded that part, I didnt leave it open to reinterpretation

Ah, I missed the first post where you began what I can only perceive to be a backpeddle. This is where the issue of BC Xbox Original downloads started:

Xbox 360 BC works well enough to sell old games through the marketplace.

No they dont. They stopped doing that, and only had a few games. BC is useless if they're only going to use it for 10 games

Plain as day, and unambiguously, you said they stopped selling the games: "No they don't [sell old games through the marketplace]. They stopped doing that [selling old games through the marketplace] and only had (note the past tense) a few games."

If you think my brackets are unfair, refer directly to the quotes above. I was talking specifically about MS selling old games though the marketplace. You were responding specifically to this.

I never even considered that MS would still be adding Originals to the marketplace. It's 2010. I'm surprised they were still doing it as late as 2009. Clearly it's not as worthless as you think.

Anyway, what bearing would MS "only" adding software BC enabled titles to the market place for four years have on whether it would be worth Sony doing the same for PSP2? If anything it's evidence that Sony would be wise to do the same if they can.

I was under the impression no one counted real-time generated/MIDI as CD quality due to many reasons despite the fact the assets used in RTG music can be CD quality. RTG would be limited to weaknesses of the software/hardware, such as how many simultaneous notes can be played/instruments loaded/etc where CD quality would not. ie: human voice.

There are lots of things that may factor into how good a person thinks a piece of music sounds. And how good something sounds is, obviously, subjective. I've not before come across "CD quality" being used to define the subjective issue of how "good" music sounds in general, taking into account things like number of instruments, whether synthesizers are used etc.

If something is too subjective it becomes difficult to debate (especially on a technical forum). If you have a 44khz, 16-bit sample it's okay to call it CD quality. If you generate a sound wave with a resolution of 16-bits by 44khz is that not also CD quality? What it you play the CD quality sample over the top of the chip generated wave? Is the output CD quality? Uh oh.

Eh? What homebrew app are you referring too? And it's UMPC, and how do you know it's none-gaming? That and it's not exactly resource starved either. My UMPC will still probably be more powerful than PSP2 will be, which saddens me...

You were talking about a PSP emulator that had extremely high requirements. I'm assuming this is homebrew, rather than commercial.

Don't be sad about your UMPC though - PSP2 will be more powerful (at least from a graphics perspective) because Sony will almost certainly go with state of the art mobile tech in PSP2.

More than what any current affordable portable hardware offers.

I'd ask you how you know this, but I suspect you'd reply that that there was this emulator someone did, and that it didn't run very well on your UMPC, or "netbooks". Then I'd ask you to quantify how much power was actually needed and you'd say "more than what any current affordable portable hardware offers".

 

[NeoTechni]

Or are you suggesting Sony should include BC for the entire system because it's important for the first 6-12 months of the product, despite being next to irrelevant for the remaining 4+ years?

No, I disagree with calling it irrelevant.

Maybe you can provide figures that show early adopters of XB360 spent considerable time playing their old games instead of the new ones they bought

360's BC isn't functional enough for that. I've only used it once on Halo, and it crashed. Never used it again, mainly cause I can't use the save games.

What are you actually arguing here? Are you saying DLC BC is a good thing or bad thing?

Bad, PSN prices are higher than disc

. This idea of basing your design on retro hardware worked for Wii

And Gameboy Color, Gameboy Advanced, DS, DSi, GameGear, TG-16, PS2
Many systems incorporate the old/existing hardware or use faster versions of it.

because it had the novel control scheme

No.

If BC hardware doesn't result in a net increase in overall value of your product

Which it would, since Sony would have a larger userbase to sell their existing PSN content to. And I guarantee you with nigh 100% certainty Sony wants this.
You guys aren't thinking of it from a business perspective.

If Sony was going to abandon BC altogether and make a whole new system, they'd have done it for the Go which certainly needed it. The fact that they didn't, and yet are still making new versions of the UMD-based hardware should tell you something.

And Go's extremely poor sales. And the retailer boycotts for not having a used-market friendly medium. You can't tell me Sony is ignoring those 2 bits. Well you can, but you'd have to be underestimating the people in charge of the money. Especially since Sony still says there is a large amount of people who prefer discs over downloads. Sony isn't going to abandon markets they know exist/pay money.

Also it's poor forum practice to quote a number of different posters in one thread without labelling the quotes with whom you are quoting

Sorry, it's laziness combined with me replying on my breaks

So your basicly admiting that the next gen psp will be worse graphicly than the iphone , google phones and win mo 7 phones for graphics ?

That would be impossible, given PSP1 has better graphics.
Plus I said enhanced/faster versions of the same processor, not the same processor

Plain as day, and unambiguously, you said they stopped selling the games: "No they don't [sell old games through the marketplace]. They stopped doing that [selling old games through the marketplace] and only had (note the past tense) a few games."

It's not plain as day if you had to add parts to it to get the meaning you wanted.
And since I even clarified it and bolded parts showing what I said, this argument is stupid and pointless.

If you generate a sound wave with a resolution of 16-bits by 44khz is that not also CD quality?

No. CD quality means it's capable of everything you can do on a CD. Which includes effects, layering, human voice, etc. It's not just the resolution of the sound file.

Don't be sad about your UMPC though - PSP2 will be more powerful (at least from a graphics perspective) because Sony will almost certainly go with state of the art mobile tech in PSP2.

Yeah, a faster version of the GPU it already uses :Þ

No, in all likelihood my UMPC will still have the superior GPU. Unless PSP2 comes with 128 MB of VRAM, and can handle simultaneously it's internal display and external display, showing something completely different on both. Plus it'd definitely require 720p to be better. And given cost is a significant factor, I don't see it as probable.

I'd ask you how you know this, but I suspect you'd reply that that there was this emulator someone did, and that it didn't run very well on your UMPC, or "netbooks".

We know from common sense emulation takes many times more power than the original system, usually a factor of 5 or more. And the latest/most expensive portables on the market are not many times more powerful, even the high end ones.

There is a homebrew one that requires an Intel Core 2 Duo 3.2ghz or better

And given darkblu claims to have an official emulator, I'm sure since he's arguing against me that if the requirements were low enough he'd have posted them.

 

[eastmen]

Well consdering the system was released in dec of 2004. It have to be a processor from before that.

So looking into 2003 the fastest p4 was northwood at 3.2ghz. So I'd say thats the maximum of what it could be. You'd then have to factor in that itsmost likely running a modern desktop os like windows xp.

So you don't think that in 2011 they can't make dedicated chip that would perform on par with a p4 3.2ghz with a 800mhz fsb esp when you factr in that it wont be running a windows xp sized os ?

 

[NeoTechni]

So you don't think that in 2011 they can't make dedicated chip that would perform on par with a p4 3.2ghz with a 800mhz fsb esp when you factr in that it wont be running a windows xp sized os ?

Not on a cheap portable with a small battery, hell no.

 

[NeoTechni]

http://psp.ign.com/articles/107/1077450p1.html

March 13, 2010 - Sony's PlayStation Portable disc-based titles aren't going away anytime soon. During a session at the Game Developers Conference this past week, the company said it has no plans in abandoning the UMD format.

The session was meant to inform independent developers about the marketplace advantages that exist on the PlayStation platform. When discussing the PSP, the company said its UMD format is "alive and well" and that all retail games will continue to be available on both a UMD disc and digitally on the PlayStation Network store.

Sony also provided its latest life-to-date sales for the PSP platform. Since its North American release in 2005, sales have reached 17 million total units. Worldwide sales have now topped 60 million total units.

Last October, Sony released the PSPgo, a UMD drive-less version of the original PSP that requires users to download titles directly off the PlayStation Network store. During last year's Tokyo Game Show, the company said it would remain committed to both versions, calling it a "dual platform strategy." Sony was unable to provide a solution to owners with UMD games who upgraded to the PSPgo due to "legal and technical reasons."

Looks like end of discussion for now

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Looks like end of discussion for now

Well the discussion probaly has ran its course , but I don't see any connection to PSP2 in that text at all. It's only about the PSP1. Anytime soon could easily mean until PSP2.

 

[function]

It's not plain as day if you had to add parts to it to get the meaning you wanted.
And since I even clarified it and bolded parts showing what I said, this argument is stupid and pointless.

You're actually accusing me of twisting your words, creating a deception. There is nothing added to or taken away from this, and I think it speaks clearly:

Xbox 360 BC works well enough to sell old games through the marketplace.

No they dont. They stopped doing that, and only had a few games. BC is useless if they're only going to use it for 10 games

Anyway, it appears we agree that the 360's software BC has worked well enough to support a large number originals, some of which have also been sold from the Marketplace (and continue to be available), with a library that was expanded for an impressive four years (long after the original Xbox was dead and buried).

It even worked well enough to allow Live integration for these old titles. Originals will have been Live enabled on the 360 for longer than Xbox 1 was around before getting replaced by the 360.

That's not too shabby for software BC.

No. CD quality means it's capable of everything you can do on a CD. Which includes effects, layering, human voice, etc. It's not just the resolution of the sound file.

All an audio CD does is store wave files. The CD doesn't do any effects, the CD doesn't layer sounds. If a CD stores a chip generated sound, it is still a CD. If you want to define "CD quality" as "stuff you can't generate real-time" then that's for you to do, but it has nothing to do with CDs or their technology in any way we can quantify.

There are undoubtedly cases in games where playing a long sample is nice, but there are also cases where generated audio is just fine or perhaps even better. Less reliance on streamed, pre-recorded audio wouldn't upset me in the slightest.

No, in all likelihood my UMPC will still have the superior GPU. Unless PSP2 comes with 128 MB of VRAM, and can handle simultaneously it's internal display and external display, showing something completely different on both. Plus it'd definitely require 720p to be better. And given cost is a significant factor, I don't see it as probable.

I have an old Radeon 7000 series card lying around somewhere, that supports dual displays, higher than HD resolutions, and has 64 MB (or something) of Vram. I wouldn't say the 360 has an inferior GPU though, because in the context of a games machine (or games and media machine) the 360 has something about a hundred times more powerful.

I'm not expecting PSP2 to boast all the same features as a PC graphics card, but I am expecting it to be very potent in terms of handheld performance.

We know from common sense emulation takes many times more power than the original system, usually a factor of 5 or more. And the latest/most expensive portables on the market are not many times more powerful, even the high end ones.

In terms of graphics and media decoding they are though. Moore's Law alone would grant you a greater than five times increase in power, and look at how CPUs and GPUs in other spaces have fared even taking into account power ratings.

There is a homebrew one that requires an Intel Core 2 Duo 3.2ghz or better

And given darkblu claims to have an official emulator, I'm sure since he's arguing against me that if the requirements were low enough he'd have posted them.

After seeing the Xbox 360's CPU emulate an OoOE, dynamic branch predicting Pentium 3 while not even clocking five times higher, I'm inclined to wait and see what Sony's engineers can do given a huge bump in power and all the knowledge, time and money they need.

 

[function]

Well the discussion probaly has ran its course , but I don't see any connection to PSP2 in that text at all. It's only about the PSP1. Anytime soon could easily mean until PSP2.

And given that there as 60 million PSPs out there, Sony probably intend to sell PSP1 games for some time after PSP2 is out. And we don't even know yet when PSP2 will be out ...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

No, I disagree with calling it irrelevant.

How relevant is BC now to PS3? Current PS3 owners with BC aren't buying PS2 titles.

360's BC isn't functional enough for that. I've only used it once on Halo, and it crashed. Never used it again, mainly cause I can't use the save games.

That's only helps to prove how unimportant BC is. You're saying it was a poor implementation on XB360, yet that didn't stop gamers buying XB360, and exceptional launch tie-ratios show they were wanting to play the new generation of games rather than old experiences.

Bad, PSN prices are higher than disc.

Whether you like the pricing or not doesn't affect the argument to whether PSP2 should have UMD. Reality is Sony wants you buying new games, and publishers want you to buy new games, or pay for old ones. Neither Sony nor games publishers benefit from people playing their existing library across a new generation of platforms.

And Gameboy Color, Gameboy Advanced, DS, DSi, GameGear, TG-16, PS2
Many systems incorporate the old/existing hardware or use faster versions of it.

Please read more carefully. I was clearly describing a system of an extended architecture rather than incorporating the old hardware in addition to the new hardware. Wii is GC doubled up, not a new architecture with GC hardware in addition. This made Wii woefully underpowered, but the novelty of Wii made it competitive. PS3 incorporated the PS2 hardware for BC and it was horribly expensive. Your retro examples are incorporating much smaller, cheaper, generic chips such that the added costs makes them worthwhile. PSP's innards would not be suited to extra tasks as part of a modern system.

No.

Next you're going to tell me people bought Wii because it was BC with GC!

Which it would, since Sony would have a larger userbase to sell their existing PSN content to. And I guarantee you with nigh 100% certainty Sony wants this.
You guys aren't thinking of it from a business perspective.

...says the guy who doesn't see the business sense in reselling games on PSN instead of letting people play their existing UMDs...

If Sony was going to abandon BC altogether and make a whole new system, they'd have done it for the Go which certainly needed it.

You what?! Go wasn't a new hardware platform. It was a DLC only PSP. It's still a PSP designed to run PSP software.

And Go's extremely poor sales. And the retailer boycotts for not having a used-market friendly medium. You can't tell me Sony is ignoring those 2 bits. Well you can, but you'd have to be underestimating the people in charge of the money. Especially since Sony still says there is a large amount of people who prefer discs over downloads.

Correction - physical media. Please concentrate so don't get lost over the argument; I wasn't advocating a DD only platform.

 

[NeoTechni]

And given that there as 60 million PSPs out there, Sony probably intend to sell PSP1 games for some time after PSP2 is out. And we don't even know yet when PSP2 will be out ...

Agreed completely. NO company is stupid enough to abandon 60 million of their own customers

You're actually accusing me of twisting your words, creating a deception. There is nothing added to or taken away from this, and I think it speaks clearly

For petes sakes you're just arguing for the sake of arguing now, give it a rest. I posted an article backing up what I said, rebolded the parts applicable to my claim, just give it up. I know what I said, and its not what you're claiming.

Anyway, it appears we agree that the 360's software BC has worked well enough to support a large number originals

I didn't say I agreed to that.

All an audio CD does is store wave files. The CD doesn't do any effects, the CD doesn't layer sounds

Again, arguing for the sake of arguing. Real time generated sound is not capable of the same quality as music stored on CD because the sounds stored on CD are capable of things real time is not. Human voice specifically, do I have to repeat it a fourth time?

And since it was MY opinion we're arguing about, it's MY opinion that would be the correct one. A long beep of the same quality of a CD recording, is not CD quality.

I have an old Radeon 7000 series card lying around somewhere, that supports dual displays, higher than HD resolutions, and has 64 MB (or something) of Vram. I wouldn't say the 360 has an inferior GPU though

Except we're talking about PSP/PSP2 here. And your example wouldn't be superior since it's only got 64 MB of VRAM.

I'm not expecting PSP2 to boast all the same features as a PC graphics card, but I am expecting it to be very potent in terms of handheld performance.

(My UMPC, is a handheld)

After seeing the Xbox 360's CPU emulate an OoOE, dynamic branch predicting Pentium 3 while not even clocking five times higher,

3.2 GHz * 6 cores vs 0.733 MHz * 1 core
That's a mighty big exponential increase in power.
You saying PSP2 will have a 6 core 1.7 GHz CPU? That'd be the ma thematic equivalent
I guarantee it won't.

Reality is Sony wants you buying new games

UMDs are still new games.

How relevant is BC now to PS3? Current PS3 owners with BC aren't buying PS2 titles.

It's still used by people who own it. BC-enabled PS3s sell for a mint of ebay. It's still relevant.

Please read more carefully. I was clearly describing a system of an extended architecture rather than incorporating the old hardware in addition to the new hardware

So was I!!!!!

Specific example: Gameboy Color, used a faster version of the original Gameboy processor
DSi, same with DS hardware
Gamegear did it with Sega Master

Next you're going to tell me people bought Wii because it was BC with GC!

I wasn't arguing why people bought it.

...says the guy who doesn't see the business sense in reselling games on PSN instead of letting people play their existing UMDs

Says the guy who doesn't see the business sense in PSP2 playing PSP games.

You what?! Go wasn't a new hardware platform. It was a DLC only PSP. It's still a PSP designed to run PSP software.

Of course Go wasn't a new hardware platform. That was what I told you.
It wasn't new cause Sony still wants to sell PSP games.
That desire isn't going to go away with PSP2 either.

I wasn't advocating a DD only platform.

Then UMD will be required, flash will never be more cost effective. Bluray discs cost less than the cheapest flash prices you guys have been giving me. UMD cost less 4 years ago, and certainly costs less now.

Sony will definitely not be switching to distributing games on memory stick or any other solid state medium simply due to cost. Someone here raised the excellent point that it puts cost back on publishers, they wouldn't stand for it. We'd get crappier and less games as a result.

The logical assumption, given Sony can't abandon physical distribution, is UMD2 will either have more layers or be Bluray based.



Not in reply to Geezer since he's admitted you're not arguing for DD-only:

I was at EB today and the manager told me of a conference the company had on DD. Obviously some of you guys are going to claim bias cause DD goes against their business, but the conference was on why they aren't afraid of DD. They know there will come a time when consoles switch to DD but it won't be any time soon. They pretty much gave the same reasons I did. They said on average, Canadians don't have the broadband speeds and quotas to be convenient enough, systems don't have enough space for enough games (he gave the specific example of how before Wii let you run games on SD cards, he simply stopped buying games instead of dealing with swapping. And Wii downloads are much smaller than PSP games. I told him how my 60 GB PS3 is nearly full and that's just the small downloadables and install files) he brought up how PSN is much slower than Live (I have no basis of comparison as I get everything from PSN, so I didn't dispute it) and how he can walk to the store and back before his computer even downloads an episode of simpsons let alone a 1 GB demo. On average, consumers are not that smart, going DD-only is far more complex than most can handle (as evidenced by the example of they get PSP Go's returned the day of purchase cause people are too stupid to read the label) and they certainly aren't ignoring PSP Go's sales like you guys are. The EB I was at has sold less than 6 total. He even said given the choice between a disc based XBLA game or the download he'll get the disc as it's just more convenient, and doesn't take up space on his drive. He said how he was floored at how little space PSP Go had, it's only enough for a casual gamer, not enough for a whole generation let alone 2. And a portable shouldn't require a PC to get games on to it, it's competitor's don't.

 

[eastmen]

I was at EB today and the manager told me of a conference the company had on DD. Obviously some of you guys are going to claim bias cause DD goes against their business, but the conference was on why they aren't afraid of DD. They know there will come a time when consoles switch to DD but it won't be any time soon. They pretty much gave the same reasons I did. They said on average, Canadians don't have the broadband speeds and quotas to be convenient enough, systems don't have enough space for enough games (he gave the specific example of how before Wii let you run games on SD cards, he simply stopped buying games instead of dealing with swapping. And Wii downloads are much smaller than PSP games. I told him how my 60 GB PS3 is nearly full and that's just the small downloadables and install files) he brought up how PSN is much slower than Live (I have no basis of comparison as I get everything from PSN, so I didn't dispute it) and how he can walk to the store and back before his computer even downloads an episode of simpsons let alone a 1 GB demo. On average, consumers are not that smart, going DD-only is far more complex than most can handle (as evidenced by the example of they get PSP Go's returned the day of purchase cause people are too stupid to read the label) and they certainly aren't ignoring PSP Go's sales like you guys are. The EB I was at has sold less than 6 total. He even said given the choice between a disc based XBLA game or the download he'll get the disc as it's just more convenient, and doesn't take up space on his drive. He said how he was floored at how little space PSP Go had, it's only enough for a casual gamer, not enough for a whole generation let alone 2. And a portable shouldn't require a PC to get games on to it, it's competitor's don't.

Gamestop wants used games. Its how they stay in busness. They invest $22 and can turn around and sell it for $55.

Developers don't. Gamestop should be carefull as thier whole busniess will go away and devs and publishers will push for it as soon as possible.

In the states (I know a RM , 3 DM's and about 8 Managers) Gamestop is deadly scared of DD and there were huge meetings over the EA sports titles and the fact that EA is supposed to start charging used games for the privliage of going on line (i believe the nba titles already do) if you don't have the code from a brand new box that hasn't been activated on it.

They are affraid it will dry up their past sports used game sales. Thats easy money for them. They claim to the consumer since sports games are yearly they buy them for less quicker after launch. In fact 3 months after launch your lucky to get $15 for a sports game while gamestop will still sell it for $50-55.

They had a big meeting also with Gears 2 when the extra maps came on a code and if you didn't have that code y ou'd have to buy them.

They are deathly afraid of DDs because it will destroy the company. About 1/3rd of thier revenue is from them.

Now up north it may not be as big of a deal , but in the USA its a growing threat to them.

 

[NeoTechni]

Gamestop wants used games. Its how they stay in busness.

Yes, I know. I already brought it up. I agree. You're arguing over nothing

Developers don't

So? Retailers are still required to sell the hardware.

 

[function]

Agreed completely. NO company is stupid enough to abandon 60 million of their own customers

Indeed, they keep selling software to them for as long as they want to buy it!

For petes sakes you're just arguing for the sake of arguing now, give it a rest. I posted an article backing up what I said, rebolded the parts applicable to my claim, just give it up. I know what I said, and its not what you're claiming.

I know what you said and with the best will in the world it's not what you're claiming.

I didn't say I agreed to that.

So the Xbox 1 BC list is in error. Which titles would you say aren't actually supported that the BC list claims are supported? It would help us to determine just how successful the software BC actually is, given that the BC list isn't a reasonable basis for discussion.

Again, arguing for the sake of arguing. Real time generated sound is not capable of the same quality as music stored on CD because the sounds stored on CD are capable of things real time is not. Human voice specifically, do I have to repeat it a fourth time?

No. Just because a CD is capable of storing samples of sound that can't be generated real time does not mean that real time processes are not capable of generating sound at the same quality that a CD reproduces them (think set theory). Unless, of course, your definition of "CD quality" isn't based on any of the characteristics of "CD Quality" ...

And since it was MY opinion we're arguing about, it's MY opinion that would be the correct one. A long beep of the same quality of a CD recording, is not CD quality.

... and in your case it isn't! In your case, your opinion is of course correct. But in terms of discussing audio quality for carts vs UMD we need to be able to compare, so we need a common frame of reference. As this thread is beginning to show, your opinion alone may not be a sufficiently defined or stable frame of reference to discuss the pros and cons of various forms of distribution.

Except we're talking about PSP/PSP2 here. And your example wouldn't be superior since it's only got 64 MB of VRAM.

The 360 only has 10 MB of video ram. Both the 360 and my Radeon 7000 series card can texture from main memory. Also, VRAM isn't the only determinant of GPU capability.

3.2 GHz * 6 cores vs 0.733 MHz * 1 core
That's a mighty big exponential increase in power.
You saying PSP2 will have a 6 core 1.7 GHz CPU? That'd be the ma thematic equivalent
I guarantee it won't.

Perhaps you can tell me how you emulate a single CPU core across 6 cores? Sounds tricky to me. Also, if you could point out where cores 3, 4 and 5 are on the Xbox 360 I'd appreciate it because I honestly don't know where they are.

Says the guy who doesn't see the business sense in PSP2 playing PSP games.

No, he sees the sense it that. The sense in PSP2 playing PSP games in a way that makes Sony and other publishers money would be considerable, as a number of people have pointed out.

Of course Go wasn't a new hardware platform. That was what I told you.
It wasn't new cause Sony still wants to sell PSP games.
That desire isn't going to go away with PSP2 either.

Wait... so because the remodelled PSP Go plays PSP games (that you have to buy again), PSP2 is going to allow you to play PSP1 games without buying them again? PSP Go proved that Sony don't want to dump UMDs(!?), so we can guarantee that PSP2 will also use UMDs!?

The logic here is escaping me tbh.

Sony will definitely not be switching to distributing games on memory stick or any other solid state medium simply due to cost. Someone here raised the excellent point that it puts cost back on publishers, they wouldn't stand for it. We'd get crappier and less games as a result.

But we might get more real time audio, which would be a win!

The logical assumption, given Sony can't abandon physical distribution, is UMD2 will either have more layers or be Bluray based.

Or UMD 2 will come in the form of small, solid state "carts".

 

[eastmen]

Yes, I know. I already brought it up. I agree. You're arguing over nothing



So? Retailers are still required to sell the hardware.

Yes , but walmart sells just as much as gamestop and they don't care about used sales. IN fact they dont care about software either. They would much rather replace the software with game code cards.

1) You can fit a good 25 cards in less space than a single 360 game.
2) Its cheap inventory. Cards need to be activated , if they are stolen without being activated they are worth nothing. Total cost in inventory is under $1 for the card. Total cost of inventory for a copy of a game is $60. So if a game walks out the physical copy will cost the store 60 times or more the loss on the game card.
3) They wouldn't have to devote as much floor space to games and can sell higher ticket items while the systems them selves will come in with a built in profit for the retailer.

Gamestop isn't the only place that sells stuff.

No, he sees the sense it that. The sense in PSP2 playing PSP games in a way that makes Sony and other publishers money would be considerable, as a number of people have pointed out.

Exactly , there is no sense in reusing umds just so people can play games they already paid for , or so gamestop can keep making money.

Its easier to make psp games downloadable for both the ps4 and psp 2. Sony would love to make more money off those games and so will the devs. The market for new games drys up quickly and no one is going to want to stop brand new copies of old psp games.

The money will be made on that through a DD service. Not in letting people reuse the old media.

People need to get used to DD because its going to be the wave of the future. For the home consoles ful DD may not come this gen. But this is how you will get BC in the next gen consoles and how you get BC in portables.

 

[NeoTechni]

http://boardsus.playstation.com/t5/...-past-and-future-ReBorn/m-p/45275436#M4299170

My kids are happy with my old last gen systems, they don't care about the 360 or PS3 yet, so they dont care about thise HD stuff nor understand it, which is what I'm sure alot of the kids in here that keep talking their crap think as well. I'm also looking into maybe just getting a new TV for my bedroom and if I do that then I can either move the PS3 back and forth when I want to play something that isn't supported in 1080i or just buy another PS3 and keep that in the bedroom. Only issue I have with that is that the new PS3's dont play the older games and it would be easier to not have a PS3 AND a PS2 hooked up, I could possibly switch theliving room PS3 to the bedroom so they have the backwards compatability in the bedroom and I have the reg PS3 and Bluray player in the living room? I actually didn't think about that till now writing this lol, the only thing I have with that is the bedroom tends to get a little more dusty than the living room and then the kids will be touching the PS3 way more and since it's the original one its not good with fingerprints and such. Decisions, decisions...

no BC means I'll never buy an extra PS3. Sony is only listening to the loud fanboys this gen who continue to worship them no matter what terrible decisions they make. It's really going to hurt them in the long run.

BC is definitely relevant

Yes , but walmart sells just as much as gamestop

I'm not going to argue your stat, even though you've made up some before. Let's assume you're telling the truth. That means Gamestop is as important to Sony as freaking WALMART, and Walmart is HUGE.

1) You can fit a good 25 cards in less space than a single 360 game.
2) Its cheap inventory. Cards need to be activated , if they are stolen without being activated they are worth nothing. Total cost in inventory is under $1 for the card. Total cost of inventory for a copy of a game is $60. So if a game walks out the physical copy will cost the store 60 times or more the loss on the game card.
3) They wouldn't have to devote as much floor space to games and can sell higher ticket items while the systems them selves will come in with a built in profit for the retailer.

I'm not arguing those benefits though. I agree with them. Problem is, you're ignoring the benefits of discs. It's not a one way street. I wasn't arguing that they'll get rid of downloads. I wasn't arguing against their benefits.

Though, those vouchers did absolutely horrible. People still had to go on PSN to use them, and then they were shown the PSN price was cheaper than the vouchers!
So retailers really have no reason to support them versus the money they make from games.

Exactly , there is no sense in reusing umds just so people can play games they already paid for

Except they can keep selling UMDs. Which I've pointed out before. They'd still sell new UMDs

And there IS sense in letting them reuse UMDs as it brings in people who own them. They aren't going to buy a PSP2 and never buy PSP2 games. But enhanced BC (ie: custom soundtracks, better PS3 controller and TV out support, in-game XMB) will entice them to upgrade.

You can't tell me there is no sense in it, I know for fact there is. I've seen many people say they won't buy a PS3 without it. Not just the 2 I quoted.

Its easier to make psp games downloadable for both the ps4 and psp 2. Sony would love to make more money off those games

And Sony would also like to keep making money off those who prefer physical distribution, don't have broadband or have small monthly quotas, don't want to use or own a PC/PS3 to get games or deal with hours of a useless PSP while it downloads, and the large amount of people who just don't want to sign up for PSN for whatever irrational reason they have. And so will the devs.

People need to get used to DD because its going to be the wave of the future.

When unlimited broadband is available everywhere on the planet as cheap as dialup, a terabyte of flash doesn't cost a grand, USB 3 is in every PC/PS5, and DRM lets you buy used games, sell games, loan to friends/borrow from friends, and we can download the plans for the PSP4 and print them (and collector's edition stuff) on our home replicator.

People don't NEED to get used to anything. People buy what they want, companies are here to supply that, not vice versa. If companies make people jump through hoops to get their product, people will just not buy it. See the Assassine's Creed II or Spore debacles for example. Companies bend to OUR will not vice versa.

So the Xbox 1 BC list is in error. Which titles would you say aren't actually supported that the BC list claims are supported?

I didn't say it was in error. I just said I didn't agree to the statement you said I did.
Though I literally couldn't make it through the first level of Halo 2 before it crashed.

No. Just because a CD is capable of storing samples of sound that can't be generated real time does not mean that real time processes are not capable of generating sound at the same quality that a CD reproduces them (think set theory). Unless, of course, your definition of "CD quality" isn't based on any of the characteristics of "CD Quality" ...

It includes everything that can be done with audio that can't be done generating it real time. Ie: HUMAN VOICE. CD quality is not just the resolution of the samples.

But in terms of discussing audio quality for carts vs UMD we need to be able to compare, so we need a common frame of reference.

I've given a specific example, Twisted Metal Head On's audio tracks that included human vocals at high quality.

your opinion alone may not be a sufficiently defined

I've given an exact definition of my opinion, you guys disagreed with my definition of my own opinion. A beep for example, at the same resolution you called CD quality, is still not CD quality. It has to be capable of the same things you'd hear on a CD as well as the resolution. Specifically, human voice (and I mean human, not vocaloid). No matter how powerful you make the hardware/software, pre-recorded music is still capable of infinitely more (literally) as they are not bound by any limitation like how many instruments can be loaded in RAM, how many samples can be played simultaneously, etc) or what effects the hardware can handle. CD Quality = being able to reproduce what music you can hear on a CD, and real time generated music doesn't do that

If you tried to generate real time, a song you heard on CD. And the hardware couldn't make it sound like the CD, then it's obviously not CD quality.

Perhaps you can tell me how you emulate a single CPU core across 6 cores?

Given most games are already multithreaded, it seems relatively simple to try to spread the threads across available cores.

Also, if you could point out where cores 3, 4 and 5 are on the Xbox 360 I'd appreciate it because I honestly don't know where they are.

You're nitpicking for the sake of arguing. 3 cores, each with hyperthreading. Better?
360's PowerPC architecture is also designed to emulate specific X86 functions (ie: endian modes)
Sony's not going to be designing the processor from scratch like they did with PS3, they'll be using off the shelf stuff like PSP used.

Wait... so because the remodelled PSP Go plays PSP games (that you have to buy again), PSP2 is going to allow you to play PSP1 games without buying them again?

If PSP was going to abandon BC and make a new system, Go would have been that. They had the chance to try that, and they said no.

And PSP Go's sales tell Sony not to even try abandoning BC. People want to play their existing games. The majority of purchased PSP games are on UMD.

PSP Go proved that Sony don't want to dump UMDs(!?), so we can guarantee that PSP2 will also use UMDs!?

Yes, if Sony was going to abandon UMDs, they'd have taken their chance with Go and stopped making the other PSPs. But they admitted the majority prefer discs to downloads. And Go's sales proved that.

But we might get more real time audio, which would be a win!

That'd be a step backwards, not a win. That'd be even worse than the day PSP launched.

Or UMD 2 will come in the form of small, solid state "carts".

That's not a logical assumption at all. We switched to optical to get AWAY from that, cost being the reason, and that hasn't changed. Did you miss the guys post above how that's putting the cost back on publishers, and how optical is an 'all you can eat buffet' at a much cheaper price? BLURAY is even cheaper than the flash costs you guys have posted here!

http://www.pacificdisc.com/PricingBluRay.html
Single Layer (BD25) $1.44
Dual Layer (BD50) $2.55

http://www.proactionmedia.com/blu-ray_replication.htm (includes the case!)
Single Layer 25GB $2.46 ea

http://www.ideareplication.com/bluray_case_special.shtml (includes the case!)
Single Layer 25GB $1.33 each

http://www.newcyberian.com/blu-ray.html
Single Layer 25GB $ 1.10
Dual Layer 50GB $ 2.20

Even assuming 100% of the cost of UMD is the shell and it's gone down 0% in 4 years, adding it to the cost of a 50 GB Bluray (which BLUMD would be cheaper than) is STILL cheaper than the lowest flash prices you guys have quotes and many times larger in capacity at 10 GB.

 

[eastmen]

BC is definitely relevant

Now ask those users if they want another $150 thrown onto the cost of the ps3 to get thier BC.

Because right now sony has to put the ps2 cpu and gpu inside the console to get BC. Which obviously costs alot more than sony wnats to support.


These people will eventualy either buy another ps2 where sony has a chance to make money on (cause they still sell them new) or simply buy a ps3 where sony has a chance to sell next gen software.

I'm not going to argue your stat, even though you've made up some before. Let's assume you're telling the truth. That means Gamestop is as important to Sony as freaking WALMART, and Walmart is HUGE.

Gamestop is huge also and a dedicated store.

However Gamestop has no leverage becuase they depend on Sony/MS /Nintendo to survive. Walmart , Target and other stores don't depend on these companys because they are diversified.

If even one of the companys go DD next gen it will be a major blow to Gamestop and they will still have to sell the system and game cards because it will still be revenue for them. If they don't they risk loosing those costumers to big box stores. Further hurting their sales.

I'm not arguing those benefits though. I agree with them. Problem is, you're ignoring the benefits of discs. It's not a one way street. I wasn't arguing that they'll get rid of downloads. I wasn't arguing against their benefits.

Though, those vouchers did absolutely horrible. People still had to go on PSN to use them, and then they were shown the PSN price was cheaper than the vouchers!
So retailers really have no reason to support them versus the money they make from games.

Huh ?

Many people don't have credit cards or don't want to use them. So they go to walmart or gamestop.Buy a $100 psn card and can go buy new games on it. The same goes with MS points.

MMORPGs have been doing this since ultima online and yes you'd allways et a discount if you ordered online. But only if your willing to link your credit card and pay for 6months at a time.

The reason retailers will support them is because of what you agree with me on. They can fit many more in the place of games and have many times less to loose if they are stolen. They can devote less retail space to them and have more room for higher margin items.

Lets say walmart makes $10 off each hard copy of a game they sell. In the space of that 1 game they can fit 10 game cards . Now each gam card they only make $2 on. They are still making more total profit. But now they fit more copies in the same space. Meaning less worry of running out of stock. Each game card stolen is less than $1 while each disc stolen is $50. Now they have room left over because cards take less room than physical discs. Now they can replace it with higher margin things like controllers or even something else. Now what happens when a game gets old ? Its still sitting there taking up space. They have to greatly discount it and hope it sells. With the game cards they just remove them from inventory and dump them because they haven o real value until activated. They can even be discouted and moved up to the check out counters as impulse buys because they take so little room.

If you work at retail for a decent amount of time and move up the line to something around a manager level you willlearn alot about product. My time at gamestop , walmart, blockbuster and stride rite taught me alot.

For instance what do you think Blockbuster makes the most money on ?


THere is more money to be made in retail with the game cards than with pysical games and less risk.

Except they can keep selling UMDs. Which I've pointed out before. They'd still sell new UMDs

And there IS sense in letting them reuse UMDs as it brings in people who own them. They aren't going to buy a PSP2 and never buy PSP2 games. But enhanced BC (ie: custom soundtracks, better PS3 controller and TV out support, in-game XMB) will entice them to upgrade.

You can't tell me there is no sense in it, I know for fact there is. I've seen many people say they won't buy a PS3 without it. Not just the 2 I quoted.

Except you don't understand retail and obviously never will.

First off UMDS will not be sufficent for next gen handheld games. So tey'dhave to invest in a new format. There is no way 1.3MB/s format will be suitable. Unless you want very very long load times.

Secondly Retailers except for gamestop don't wnat legacy stock hanging around because they make less money on it and it takes up room for the hot new titles.

So what happens is games have limited shelf time unless they are a big seller.

So we have some options.

1) UMD support is there just for BC. in which case sony has to foot the bill for the umd drive in the next gen system. Most of the umd sales will be usd sales in which sony sees no profit.

2)UMD is used for the next system. At this point many poeple will still be buying used copies of old titles for the psp because they are cheaper instead of buying first gen psp2 tittles. Sony is no competing with itself. Developers may want to develop psp 1 games and sell to both thus keeping legacy psp devices around longer

3) Spend tons of money to develop a next gen UMD thats BC with UMD 1 . They will still have the same problems as 2.


None of these will make sony happy. They already invested into flash and have standards for it. Its faster than UMD , Smaller and more durable. They also already have a DD system out there, tho is full of mistakes that sony made while designing it. They are now getting feed back on what not to do.

AS for TV out. Sony already has video rental store and purchase store on psn. They will use that for the video of the future. 720p mpeg 4 with low bit rate will still look good even on a hd tv. I know cause i use it on my zune. Sony will make more money that way than trying to launch another movie standard and users get the benfit of it working on the ps3/4 and psp 2 mabye even sony smart phoens in thefuture.

And Sony would also like to keep making money off those who prefer physical distribution, don't have broadband or have small monthly quotas, don't want to use or own a PC/PS3 to get games or deal with hours of a useless PSP while it downloads, and the large amount of people who just don't want to sign up for PSN for whatever irrational reason they have. And so will the devs.

Most psp games are under 1.8 gigs in size. So unlike with a console psp games will nt really affect quotas/ They can even go with a free 3g connection for downloads only.

I don't know what a pc / ps3 has to do with anything. You don't need either for psp go , i don't need either for my zune hd , my friends don't need either for thier iphone.

When unlimited broadband is available everywhere on the planet as cheap as dialup, a terabyte of flash doesn't cost a grand, USB 3 is in every PC/PS5, and DRM lets you buy used games, sell games, loan to friends/borrow from friends, and we can download the plans for the PSP4 and print them (and collector's edition stuff) on our home replicator.

People don't NEED to get used to anything. People buy what they want, companies are here to supply that, not vice versa. If companies make people jump through hoops to get their product, people will just not buy it. See the Assassine's Creed II or Spore debacles for example. Companies bend to OUR will not vice versa.

No try again.

 

[NeoTechni]

Now ask those users if they want another $150 thrown onto the cost of the ps3 to get thier BC.

BC didnt add anywhere near that much. A whole PS2 costs less
Estimates put the cost of BC at $27, and yes they'd be willing to pay that.

Proof it's relevant: http://share.blog.us.playstation.com/ideas/popular/
It's the second-most asked for feature!
You guys CANT deny how desired it is!

Huh ?

I was referring to the game vouchers, not the cash vouchers

Except you don't understand retail and obviously never will.

Except that applies to you more than anyone

You keep bringing up the advantages of flash everytime I say the reason Sony went with UMD is cost/capacity. Sony is aware of those advantages, and they still went with UMD. The cost advantage hasnt gone away and never will.

You keep trying to ignore the people who prefer discs, with little/no broadband/PSN access, as if they dont matter. They are paying customers. Sony is not going to abandon them. Less sales do not help the system win developers. Use some common sense and you'll realize Sony CANT go DD only, and CANT use flash to distribute games.

First off UMDS will not be sufficent for next gen handheld games. So tey'dhave to invest in a new format. There is no way 1.3MB/s format will be suitable. Unless you want very very long load times.

Again, UMD2 would not be bound by any limitation of UMD1. I already proved that with existing examples and basic math. Simply switching to bluray and keeping the same motor speed would increase the data rate by a factor of 5. Because the data is more dense, at the same speed, the lens would pass over 5 times as much data in the same time.

UMD support is there just for BC.

No, that'd be a waste of space. And they can't abandon physical mediums for discs.
If they are going to use UMD, and they are, they will use it for PSP2 games as well

Most of the umd sales will be usd sales in which sony sees no profit.

made up false statistic.
They'd still sell new UMDs just like they do now.

3) Spend tons of money to develop a next gen UMD thats BC with UMD 1 .

It costs almost no money do anything with UMD since it's existing technology. The lens in a UMD drive, is a simple DVD lens tuned to a specific frequency to block rewriteable discs. The discs, simply smaller DVDs in a shell. UMD2, would be an extension of that, simply many-layered small DVD or smaller bluray. And bluray seems the more logical/likely choice, as it would increase the data transfer speed, decrease power usage, and be easier to read and manufacture vs many layered DVDs. The shells are already done. They have to invent anything new at all.

They already invested into flash and have standards for it.

They already invested into UMD and have standards for it.
It's vastly more convenient for large files, and vastly cheaper
And they can keep selling to people with little or no broadband/PSN access, which Sony does want to do.

They also already have a DD system out there,

And it's doing horribly, that alone guarantees Sony wont try that again

So unlike with a console psp games will nt really affect quotas/

Yes they do. Quotas tend not to be that big, lots of places have less than 20 GB a month. PSP2 games will be larger than 2 GB. There was a guy on the PS boards with a daily quota of 200 MB cause he uses satelite internet. Where he is, he cant get anything else.

Just cause it wont affect your quota doesnt mean it wont affect other people's.

Especially since ISPs are doing their hardest to crack down on large file downloading

They can even go with a free 3g connection for downloads only.

And that proves you know absolutely nothing about 3g. I've already shown you limits other DD systems have over 3g. iphone has a 20 MB limit, kindle has a 1 MB limit for apps, and they have to use less than 100 KB a month. 3g is even more expensive than broadband and has quotas of 1 to 5 GB for most people. Canada only got a 6 GB quota for the iphone for launch, after which everyone got 1 GB.

ipad makes you buy blocks of 250 MB. Most PSP games are larger than that. Sony is not going to get free 3g for PSP2.

Are you insane? Give extremely high quantities of expensive bandwidth away for free? You do know the whole point of UMD was that it costs less than flash right? 3g bandwidth is many times more expensive than flash! What's next? You going to suggest Sony give PSP2s away for free to get more of them out there than iphones/DSs? You have NO clue how anything works let alone retail apparently! Rogers (the biggest provider in Canada) charges $30 a month, for a SINGLE GB and then they start charging by the kilobyte! Use some common sense!

I don't know what a pc / ps3 has to do with anything. You don't need either for psp go

Actually you do. As I've explained to you multiple times.
Either you use a PC/PS3 to download games, or the Go is completely unusable for the hours it takes to download cause it doesnt have background downloading and only uses 802.11b wifi.

i don't need either for my zune hd , my friends don't need either for thier iphone.

iphone has 3g, and you DO need a PC to get anything on it larger than 20 MB for 3g. And for wifi, you have to leave the phone alone while it downloads, otherwise it stops while you're in other apps.
your zunehd also doesnt have PSP-sized games. or PSP quality games
You CANT compare PSP games to the crap on those, especially since they dont download the same way PSP does.
If your zunehd has background downloading, good for it. PSP doesnt.

People don't NEED to get used to anything. People buy what they want, companies are here to supply that, not vice versa. If companies make people jump through hoops to get their product, people will just not buy it. See the Assassine's Creed II or Spore debacles for example. Companies bend to OUR will not vice versa.

No try again.

No try again? You can't wipe away actual events by saying no try again. Companies pushed to hard, people revolted. ACII used DRM so restrictive people DDOS attacked the servers and brought the whole game down. The DRM on spore was so bad it became the highest pirated game ever. Then there was the rootkit debacle, DRM so intrusive we SUED Sony and won. No, YOU try again.

We dont have to put up with jack squat. Companies bend to OUR will, or we don't open our wallets. That's how it works. Not vice versa. WE are the ones with the power, not them.

As Go's sales also proved. They released a product so restrictive people didnt want it, thus they didnt buy it. People dont put up with companies crap just cause you want them to. You have no clue how retail works..

 

[Lazy8s]

UMPCs cost more than PSP mainly because they're not subsidized by first party software and third party license fees, they're produced in low volume, and they carry a much more advanced screen, not because their processors and RAM are all that more expensive, especially now with Intel moving to a SoC platform approach for the portable and consumer electronic markets.

 

[darkblu]

Given most games are already multithreaded, it seems relatively simple to try to spread the threads across available cores.

Given the original xbox's CPU is single-core, single-context, i doubt very much the threading model of the common xbox game would be one employing multiple worker threads. Of course there would be real-time event servicing threads, but good luck achieving good emulation performance boost by parallelizing those.

 

[corduroygt]

I'm only interested in BC if it's done in the GoW collection way, with trophies and in HD 60fps. Otherwise, I didn't buy my PS3 to play aliased games in SD.