The importance of UMD to PSP and its future *spinoff

[eastmen]

What they should just do is introduce it as DD only in countrys that can support DD only. Make a disc based and DD verison for the countrys that can't support it.

IT will cut down piracy and used game sales while maximizing profits on the DDs by forgoing the rest of the retail costs.


Next gen I'd love if MS came out with a DD only xbox at launch that was smaller due to not having an optical drive and then offered the optical drive.

The DD box should come with a larger hardrive inside of it also. I'd certianly buy that console and I know alot of people who would.

 

[NeoTechni]

Does that happen to be the dominant handheld/console this gen?

Thats not part of the definition
PS3 didnt become current gen when it sold a certain amount.

Has it occured to your that technology may have more to it than what your geeky self tries to see in it?

Yes. Has it occurred to you?
I keep telling you that you're ignoring everyone who thinks differently than you
You're ignoring those who prefer physical mediums, those without broadband, or small quotas.

I was never arguing against downloads. I was arguing against abandoning physical mediums. Where you seem to think cause downloads work for you, they work for everyone

Like opening/expanding markets?

Excluding existing markets is not expanding markets

Technology is not something that exists in a vacuum (yes, I know you prefer looking at things this way)

I've done no such thing.

And like it or not, UMD was created with movies in mind too

Too. Maybe, but as it's primary purpose like you're trying to claim, no.

If you ask me, the technology in the DS seems to be quite superior to that in the PSP

That's a piece of crap. Not a single part about DS is superior.

Yes because your the average psp owner or averge console gamer.

You can't tell me you're the average PSP owner when you hate and troll the thing

BTW if there were 43 psp games worth owning I would own them.

Case in point

THe point of the psp is to be a portable system. Size of the system and its media prevent that from happening.

No it doesnt. The system is SMALLER than the DS and other portables.
The media is perfectly portable.
I just saw a guy on the bus today with a PSP, a logitech case for it that holds 2 UMDs in the top. The majority are fine with UMD's size

What devs will use and need are diffrent

No it's not. If Kojima used a dual layered disc to make an awesome game, then he needed it. You're opinion doesn't cancel out his or anyone elses who enjoyed the game

. You haven't convinced me that devs will need more than 8 gigs of space

You havent convinced me it wont

and you haven't convinced me that an optical drive can provide that in a small power efficent form factor that has fast trasnfer rates.

Only because you're ignoring the facts, and made it clear you're trolling.
The difference in power between 1x series PSPs and 2x series PSPs, both which use UMD, is larger than the difference in power between the 2x series and the Go. Sony has proven they can reduce power usage enough even with UMD.

As for transfer rates, you're again ignoring basic math.
I proved nothing about UMD2 would be bound by UMD1s limitations. You're just ignoring it.

I'm surer 8 gigs would work just fine

Fine, 8 GB is a fine estimate. I'll agree and we can move on, abandoning that argument.

You don't seem to understand that the psp failed at being portable

No, that's a troll comment. It succeeded at being portable. I see people using them all the time. Your opinion doesn't cancel out the 53 million other people who own one.

Its not portable , its size is way to small

It's not portable cause it's TOO small? Oki....

I also don't know what ghetto your talking about

You keep trying to see PSP as another Nintendo handheld. You think Sony set out do a handheld the same way Nintendo does. Dumbed down, small minigames. Sony set out to make a handheld that did things differently. Hence THEIR comments about PSP bringing handheld gaming out of the ghetto Nintendo kept it in.

Sales prove you other wise

No, they don't. Sales do not equal quality.
But if you want to use sales, PSP has sold over 53 million. So 53 million people disagree with your troll comment that it's not portable.
If you want to use sales, you must count PSP Go's sales. Its selling horribly. It proves according to you that games dont care about the size difference and do want UMD

Developers wont make less , publishers and sony wont make less. Only game stop.

And retailers are important, they are needed to sell the hardware.
Hardware isnt downloadable.

3D sound ? You mean two little crap speakers emulating surround sound from stero stream?

Headphones.

Get rid of a spinning optical format and your just fine

No, then you've put back every problem Sony set out to solve by putting it there in the first place.

Lets not forget that therei s compression that doesn't use any more power

No there isn't. ALL compression uses more power. It's an extra step. Extra steps = more power usage.

PSP has a 1.8 gig drive. 2gig flash is $5

UMD cost 1/3 that 4 years ago, it costs even less now. And those savings add up FAST when you're printing millions of copies.

And hold vastly more space, and cost vastly less to produce. Hence why UMD was chosen/invented

When the system came out perhaps

And still now.

What requires a PC to get its games. Your not making any sense. WTF are you talking about. Every handheld I have doesn't require a pc to get its games.

You've had this explained to you twice now, pay attention or stop replying
PSP Go, requires a PC/PS3 to get its games, OR you're stuck with the system being completely unusable for hours as it downloads it

Not the iphone , not my zune hd , not my ds

iphone and zune games are A LOT smaller than PSP games. DS doesnt HAVE downloadable games
iphone limits downloads over 3g to 20 MB
Again, you're comparing completely incomparable systems.

To me, UMD. I don't need a PC/PS3 to put my games on it. And it doesn't take me 5 minutes to swap games. If for some reason my flash gets corrupted (and it does) I still have games with me.

You make no sense and invent things to make your point.

No, you ignore everything that doesnt prove your point.
Lets say someone like me has a collection of 43 PSP games. That amount wont fit on a Go, how do you swap games if the games you want to play arent on it?

A PC damnit. If you're going to talk about the system at least know how it gets its games.

It's just easier to bring multiple games with me.

Its easier for me to rip them to memory cards.

You asked for MY opinion, not yours.

UMDS will break when droped. Can't say the same about sd cards.

SD cards are very easy to lose when dropped. Can't say the same about UMDs.
But you already said that and started a loop
I've dropped UMDs and they've lived.

You have to look at the whole picture and the psp 2 will sell for 5-6 years. Alot changes all the time.

And there are things that wont
The majority of gamers will still prefer physical mediums, and theyll still be cheaper, and areas Sony wants to keep selling to will still have either no broadband, or small quotas.

2)Consumers wont care because they want to play the games first and foremost

They do care, have you not read the topics of outrage over project $10, Go not taking UMDs, or Sony's new $20 cost for used games to play online?

They do care. Just cause you dont doesnt mean no one does

Yes and what do we need the pope to come in and change DRM ? Or can a programer just implement the feature in the future ?

So you're agreeing the DRM needs to be changed. Moving on.

Wifi uses more power than UMD.

Must be a shitty wifi chip

Nope.

In the portable arena they will

No they wont. They cant, and you're ignoring why

Do you really think Gamestop can stop them ?

MULTIPLE retailers boycotted the Go. Not just Gamestop.
And if Sony were to make the reason why they boycotted it, worse, the boycotts would become worse. Simple math.

They are already introducing codes with the purchase of the game fr content you have to pay for if you buy used.

Yes, that was MY point. Retailers are already pissed about those.

1) Thats psn's fault

No, it's cause emulating the UMD drive and running decompression uses more processing power, which the games tend to use all the available power already. Thus introducing lag.

2) I've never paid more for a DD game

Almost every game on PSN costs less on UMD
Just cause you havent done research doesnt mean it doesnt happen

-Delayed releases versus discs

3) No such thing.

http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/6...etail-releases-day-and-date-anytime-soon.html
MS has said that the 360 games they offer for download will not be available the same day as retail copies
And explain how LittleBigPlanet on PSN came out weeks after UMD

Just cause you havent done research doesnt mean it doesnt happen

4)Retailers don't care except for gamestop

Just cause you havent done research doesnt mean it doesnt happen

5)That is false, you have no facts to back it up

Just cause you havent done research doesnt mean it doesnt happen

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/02/23/npd-study-says-that-gamers-prefer-retail/
According to a new study by the NPD, 75 percent of players share our preference for retail

http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=27008712&msg_id=315299595
Disc (DVD, Blu-Ray) 71% [50]
Digital (Steam, D2D, Impulse, GamersGate) 29% [20]

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Play...opies-of-Videogames-132159.shtml-132159.shtml
Purchases of physical copies of videogames, both in their new packaging and used, are said by the NPD Group to represent about 90% of the total of videogames that were bought for gaming consoles during the third quarter of 2009. When the picture shifts to portable consoles, the PC, the Mac, mobiles and smartphones, 79% of the purchases made in the same period were of physical objects

http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=26804834&msg_id=310240144
I prefer digital distribution 15% [49]
I prefer hard copies 75% [240]

Sony themselves have said 75% of PSP users prefer UMD.

Except everyone who didn't want the discs will have a device increased very significantly in volume for the sake of the UMD drive

No they wont. I said Sony would probably have both a UMD and a UMD less version.
There are people who prefer or need UMD. Im not saying Sony will abandon downloads

That and your exaggerating the volume

 

[NeoTechni]

What they should just do is introduce it as DD only in countrys that can support DD only. Make a disc based and DD verison for the countrys that can't support it.

IT will cut down piracy and used game sales while maximizing profits on the DDs by forgoing the rest of the retail costs.

Except there are people in countries that can support DD, that still cant use it.
Theres a town outside burlington for example in canada that doesnt have broadband
Plus there are people who prefer discs which you people cant seem to accept

And going download only wont stop piracy, see iphone for example
The only pirated PS3 games have been downloadable ones

 

[darkblu]

Thats not part of the definition
PS3 didnt become current gen when it sold a certain amount.

It surely would not have been current gen if it did not sell relevant ammounts this gen. Bringing up a device of arbitrary insignificant sale numbers and claiming it's 'as much current gen' as the actual current gen dominant handheld is flat out ridiculous. Just giving you a side perspective here.

Yes. Has it occurred to you? I keep telling you that you're ignoring everyone who thinks differently than you.

Several posters keep telling you you've been ignoring everything about UMD but its cost advantage. Why do you think I used that DAT hyperbole a few pages ago? To show you the single-sidedness of your argument. It flew above your head, of course.

You're ignoring those who prefer physical mediums, those without broadband, or small quotas.

Feel free to quote a single post by me that states we should drop physical media.

Excluding existing markets is not expanding markets.

And here a normal debater would bring evidences of their claim. Namely, that the DS has excluded existing markets to any degree of significance.

Too. Maybe, but as it's primary purpose like you're trying to claim, no.

A good deal of its characteristics are clearly targeter at AV content distribution: strongly preferred sequential access, very expensive random access in terms of both access time and battery. And let's not forget this is a mobile device - you cannot throw in home-console-class motors to mitigate access times. Surely it can carry arbitrary binary data - but so can punch cards. And so far, UMD's capacity has benefited movie content first and foremost - UMD movies are predominantly in the 1.4-1.8GB range. PSP games are not.

That's a piece of crap. Not a single part about DS is superior.

Really? How about battery life? Orders of magnitute faster load times? Free FSAA? Higher resolution textures? And these are just random things taken in a vacuum, as you like to see them.

You can't tell me you're the average PSP owner when you hate and troll the thing.

Hate and troll the thing? So if i criticized certain aspects of the PSP, which you apparently think are the best thing after sliced bread, i must be 'hating and trolling the thing'. Gotcha. I have two psp's, btw, which i use mainly for homebrew and movies. And judging by the sales numbers for psp titles for the past couple of years, so is the majority of the PSP userbase in the western hemisphere.

 

[NeoTechni]

It surely would not have been current gen if it did not sell relevant ammounts this gen.

No, sales are not part of the definition

Several posters keep telling you you've been ignoring everything about UMD but its cost advantage.

And Ive replied each time that Sony already looked at those disadvantages and deemed cost as significant. Just like everyone did for consoles

Why do you think I used that DAT hyperbole a few pages ago? To show you the single-sidedness of your argument. It flew above your head, of course.

No, I ignored it cause it was stupid and not valid

Feel free to quote a single post by me that states we should drop physical media.

So then we're in agreement that Sony wont

And here a normal debater would bring evidences of their claim.

Why? You havent despite my continued requests
And by excluding markets, I mean those who prefer physical mediums, those without broadband, or those with small quotas. Are you saying they don't exist?
I've already proven 2 of those markets exist already!

Namely, that the DS has excluded existing markets to any degree of significance.

I'm not saying DS has though, since it still has a physical medium
My claim was that ditching physical mediums excludes markets

A good deal of its characteristics are clearly targeter at AV content distribution

By coincidence only.
Lets say PSP didnt have UMD movies, or the ability to play movies off memory stick.
All the hardware would still be exactly the same. The processor you claim is only for audio would still be needed for games. The screen, still needed for games. UMD, still needed for games. Just like PS3/360, multimedia came after games.

And so far, UMD's capacity has benefited movie content first and foremost

I told you to stop that lie

- UMD movies are predominantly in the 1.4-1.8GB range. PSP games are not.

I have many PSP games that are.
Nor does that prove your claim. Movies were just downsampled from higher quality media. Did you expect them to downsample them to 700 MB and leave the rest unused? Theree merely chose the highest quality thatd fit. That doesnt prove your point

Really? How about battery life? Orders of magnitute faster load times? Free FSAA? Higher resolution textures?

DS doesnt load magnitudes faster, it simply loads less, PSP would load just as fast if it only had 4 freaking megs of RAM. Ive seen DS games with load times, even GBA and N64 games. Even at 4 MB of RAM devs have complained the 128 MB DS cards are slow.
I've NEVER seen FSAA on it, if it was truly free then every game would use it. DS games are incredibly jaggy. DS has LESS filtering than the N64!
And it does NOT use higher resolution textures. That's the biggest lie Ive seen you claim so far! Most PSP games use textures larger than half the res of DS's screen! DS doesnt even have enough VRAM to use textures larger than PSP!
DS only has 512 kilobytes of texture memory, PSP has 2 megabytes and can load them from the other 32 MB of system memory.

Show me ONE DS game with textures this good

Lets compare 2 closeups

Higher res textures my ass, they couldn't even make Links eyes EQUAL res to Gurumin's. And Miyamoto claimed eyes were a priority of that style.
Almost EVERY DS game uses smaller textures than almost EVERY PSP game.
DS doesnt even have enough processing power to push higher res textures.
That and being a solid state medium, it doesnt have the space to have higher res textures. 1.8 GB versus DS's 128 MB (only 1 game used 256, and the 512 doesnt exist)
The whole reason UMD was used is cause cost of the medium no longer factors into the quality of the game, and they have tons of space.
DS, the higher quality a dev wants to use, the more they have to spend on the card

Hate and troll the thing? So if i criticized certain aspects of the PSP, which you apparently think are the best thing after sliced bread, i must be 'hating and trolling the thing'. Gotcha

That wasnt directed at you. But claiming DS is superior in every way is a troll statement, so is claiming it was made for multimedia first.
I meant specifically him saying PSP failed as a portable and doesnt have games worth buying, are troll statements. And they are.

I have two psp's, btw, which i use mainly for homebrew and movies. And judging by the sales numbers for psp titles for the past couple of years, so is the majority of the PSP userbase in the western hemisphere.

That too is a troll statement. Leave them outside.

 

[darkblu]

No, sales are not part of the definition.

The market relevance of a given device during a defined period of time (which is what a generation is) _is_ measured in sales of that device. Sales tracking statistics are done on generation-relevant devices - NDP/media create/famitsu/euro charts are not tracking your little candidate at the moment, egro it does not have significance for either the current or the previous generation. End of story.

And Ive replied each time that Sony already looked at those disadvantages and deemed cost as significant. Just like everyone did for consoles.

Apparently you think Nintendo did not deem cost as significant for their medium. Also, home consoles running off the mains are a rather poor parallel here.

Why? You havent despite my continued requests.

I already answered that. You can refresh your memory in the previous pages.

I'm not saying DS has though, since it still has a physical medium. My claim was that ditching physical mediums excludes markets.

Ok, I'm not arguing that line.

By coincidence only.
Lets say PSP didnt have UMD movies, or the ability to play movies off memory stick.
All the hardware would still be exactly the same. The processor you claim is only for audio would still be needed for games. The screen, still needed for games. UMD, still needed for games. Just like PS3/360, multimedia came after games.

ME is an AV-handling processor. It does both atrac codecs and AVC codecs and related work. Yes, it's used in games for AV tasks. Unfortunately, there's no way for us to guess if it'd have been present, and in what shape, had the PSP not have a movie-capable medium. It may have been there in this shape, or it may have been reduced to a tiny part of it. What we know is that it exists for AV-only taks, and is as complex, or more, as the central processor. And it does UMD movies.

I told you to stop that lie

I have many PSP games that are.
Nor does that prove your claim. Movies were just downsampled from higher quality media. Did you expect them to downsample them to 700 MB and leave the rest unused? Theree merely chose the highest quality thatd fit. That doesnt prove your point

I love how you lose your reading comprehension when something does not suit your views. Read again what i said, then read again your reply. You may laugh.

DS doesnt load magnitudes faster, it simply loads less, PSP would load just as fast if it only had 4 freaking megs of RAM.

You keep ignoring seek times, good job. Are you suggesting PSP games load the max possible amount (i.e. 24MB) at a time, each and every time? Because that would be 20sec+ access on every single read, and that's disregarding the seek times. I'm speaking of average load times and those on the PSP are so much longer than the average DS game it's not ever funny. In contrast, the iphone which gives 64MB to applications, is times faster at loading than the PSP with its 24MB of user space. So the 'but it has so much more to load' argument is a bit disingenuous.

Ive seen DS games with load times, even GBA and N64 games.

I somehow doubt you've seen a lot of GBA load time give that the GBA cart maps into the addressable memory of the CPU.

Even at 4 MB of RAM devs have complained the 128 MB DS cards are slow.

Quotes? Because I can give some by devs speaking of UMD load times, and trust me - you won't like 'em.

I've NEVER seen FSAA on it, if it was truly free then every game would use it.

Look closer.

DS games are incredibly jaggy. DS has LESS filtering than the N64!

Irrelevant. I did not say anything about filtering.

And it does NOT use higher resolution textures. That's the biggest lie Ive seen you claim so far!

Max PSP tex res: 512^2
Max DS tex res: 1024^2

That's a four times difference.

Most PSP games use textures larger than half the res of DS's screen! DS doesnt even have enough VRAM to use textures larger than PSP!
DS only has 512 kilobytes of texture memory, PSP has 2 megabytes and can load them from the other 32 MB of system memory.

Irrelevant. I did not say anything about cumulative texture memory. Fact is PSP has lower max texture resolution. Live with it.

Show me ONE DS game with textures this good.
<irrelevant spam snipped>

That and being a solid state medium, it doesnt have the space to have higher res textures. 1.8 GB versus DS's 128 MB (only 1 game used 256, and the 512 doesnt exist)

You're just adorable. Quoting PSP games as 1.8GB and then going on about how few DS games use the biggest carts. Just adorable.

The whole reason UMD was used is cause cost of the medium no longer factors into the quality of the game, and they have tons of space.

Right. It factors into the battery play time of the game, and the time people stare at a loading screen.

DS, the higher quality a dev wants to use, the more they have to spend on the card

Why don't you look at it from the other end: the majority of PSP game not even close to using up the full capacity of a UMD are paying the full price of the disk. Also, all of them are paying the abysmal seek times. How's that for paying?

That wasnt directed at you. But claiming DS is superior in every way is a troll statement, so is claiming it was made for multimedia first.

It was made with a significant thought of multimedia that it affected its quality as a gaming machine.

 

[Lazy8s]

Considering even the MBX architecture runs laps around the PSP's graphics, a super-charged PSP, GC-to-Wii style, has no chance of being graphically competitive.

 

[NeoTechni]

The market relevance of a given device during a defined period of time (which is what a generation is) _is_ measured in sales of that device.

Market relevance yes.
Market relevance is not part of the definition of next gen technology.

ME is an AV-handling processor.

So is the sound processor in the SNES.
Face it, sound is still needed for games. And PSP games still use FMV
And the DSP attached to the VME makes it far more energy efficient.
I'm sure I have a PDF somewhere about VME's energy efficiency versus having the CPU do it.
It also said Sony used the the VME in other devices, which used the same ATRAC format PSP uses for it's game music.

Unfortunately, there's no way for us to guess if it'd have been present, and in what shape, had the PSP not have a movie-capable medium.

So you're saying since there is no proof of yours or my claim, we must assume yours is correct? That's not how it works. You made the claim, if there's no evidence to back it, your claim gets withdrawn. And there is proof to my claim, the VME is used in-game. It's still needed even if PSP had no multimedia capabilities.

I love how you lose your reading comprehension when something does not suit your views.

Childish insults do not prove your point. If you want a respectful discussion fine, but we're not 3 year olds. Don't act like one.

You keep ignoring seek times, good job.

No I don't. You're exaggerating them though.

Are you suggesting PSP games load the max possible amount (i.e. 24MB) at a time, each and every time?

No. That seems like you are though.

I'm speaking of average load times and those on the PSP are so much longer than the average DS game it's not ever funny

And in every case, the DS game is loading significantly less. PSP is loading significantly higher quality assets. Of course it will take more, even if the speeds were equal.

Though if you have the specific transfer rate of DS cards I'd love to see it. I've tried to find it to no avail.

In contrast, the iphone which gives 64MB to applications, is times faster at loading than the PSP with its 24MB of user space. So the 'but it has so much more to load' argument is a bit disingenuous.

Not really. I was never denying flash was faster than UMD. I was denying DS in particular is "orders of magnitude faster". You cant compare it something completely different and say it proves the original point.

I somehow doubt you've seen a lot of GBA load time give that the GBA cart maps into the addressable memory of the CPU.

Doom had a loading screen.
I didn't say "a lot".
I've seen a DS game with longer load times than some PSP games, that doesn't mean I'm saying DS loads slower.

Even at 4 MB of RAM devs have complained the 128 MB DS cards are slow.

Quotes?

I'm sure I posted it already but alright...

http://blogs.ign.com/MechAssaultDS/2006/06/16/21863/

Streaming also brought up another challenge for us during development. We began the project with the assumption we’d be using a 512 Mbit (64 MB) cartridge, so our memory map was crafted under those constraints. Later Nintendo announced the 1Gbit (128 MB) cart was available but there was a catch. Isn’t there always?

This larger cart’s transfer speed (the speed at which data transfers from cart to RAM) was 25% slower than the 512 cart. Yikes!

I've NEVER seen FSAA on it, if it was truly free then every game would use it.

Look closer.

I have. I even did some research to make sure. The only relevant link on google was your own quote which isn't evidence.

Again, DS games are extremely jaggy. And the point about N64 was cause it had FSAA

And it does NOT use higher resolution textures. That's the biggest lie Ive seen you claim so far!

Max PSP tex res: 512^2
Max DS tex res: 1024^2

That's a four times difference.

Problem. I specified "use" giving real world examples as proof you lied. Lets assume your numbers are true. PSP can simply tile the textures to use the same total res, I've done it so I know it's possible. PSP has the RAM to use more of them, the disc capacity to store more of them without raising publishing costs exponentially, and the GPU power to render them. DS does not. You still ignored that. DS can't afford the higher res textures.

A spec doesnt count as being superior if it's incapable of being used. You've said so yourself. SHOW me superior textures on it. Go on.

Right. It factors into the battery play time of the game, and the time people stare at a loading screen

Irrelevant/exaggerating

Why don't you look at it from the other end

Why? You're not. Otherwise you'd never brought up DS's load times or tried to claim it has superior texture resolution.

the majority of PSP game not even close to using up the full capacity of a UMD are paying the full price of the disk.

No, there are both single layered and dual layered discs they can buy.
That and it's highly hypocritical to even bring up cost considering you're the one trying to claim it doesn't matter. UMD is so cheap the cost is irrelevant compared to flash/DS.

Also, all of them are paying the abysmal seek times

Not really. There are multiple ways around it. Including ones they've been using on consoles for years. There are many PSP games with very little load times if at all. They didn't get any horrible seek times. You're again, exaggerating. Out of my 43 games, only 2 of them have longer than 10 seconds. And I don't know how they managed to screw those 2 games up (both of them are Untold Legends)

Before trying to make such outlandish claims about PSP, maybe you shouldn't have admitted to not using it for games thus rendering any claims to them null/void.

It was made with a significant thought of multimedia that it affected its quality as a gaming machine.

That's another lie/troll comment. What made PSP great was its large screen, CD quality music, UMD, etc. None of which made it worse as a gaming machine. Again, your opinion isn't really valid since you admitted you don't even use it for games.

Considering even the MBX architecture runs laps around the PSP's graphics, a super-charged PSP, GC-to-Wii style, has no chance of being graphically competitive

An un-super charged PSP is still graphically competitive. It's not like Nintendo has tried to catch up at all. DSi is still many times inferior to PSP despite coming out 4 years after it. I've never seen anything on ipod touch look remotely as good as Gurumin/God of War/Crisis Core/etc. Even ipod touches best examples are ports from other systems, particularly PSP. And due to the race-to-the-bottom-pricing they'll never get a budget to compete with PSP's blockbuster games. Hell, there are multiplatform titles on Wii that look worse than the PSP version.

 

[function]

Looking a the PSP2 / UMD / BC thing as objectively as I can, I see the following as the most reasonable line of thinking:

- We know that Sony are going with new hardware (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=54551)

- ... so 100% hardware BC is out...

- ... so the only good reason for keeping UMD is out...

- ... so BC will either be gone totally, or be a (mostly?) software solution

So if there is BC, it will be for downloaded PSP1 titles only, and we should look to the PSP online store to see the titles most likely to be supported early on. This is my guess anyway.

You're just adorable. Quoting PSP games as 1.8GB and then going on about how few DS games use the biggest carts. Just adorable.

Given that PSP2 hasn't even been announced yet, and that it'll likely last quite a few years, I wonder what the chances are of cart based games actually exceeding the 1.8GB UMD limit if the PSP2 uses carts? Could UMD actually end up holding some games back?

That's another lie/troll comment. What made PSP great was its large screen, CD quality music, UMD, etc. None of which made it worse as a gaming machine. Again, your opinion isn't really valid since you admitted you don't even use it for games.

You should maybe lay off the constant accusations of lies. After all, you claimed that Xbox Live Originals only had 10 games and that MS didn't do it any more. Mistakes or disagreements don't have to be lies.

You can have CD quality music off a cart btw. 16-bit 44kHz stereo is CD quality. Even if you don't use compressed waves you can chip generate CD quality music using very very little space to store the data you generate it from.

Hooray for chip generated music! Nothing sounds as good as chip generated music! not even lossless recordings of chip generated music!

An un-super charged PSP is still graphically competitive. It's not like Nintendo has tried to catch up at all. DSi is still many times inferior to PSP despite coming out 4 years after it. I've never seen anything on ipod touch look remotely as good as Gurumin/God of War/Crisis Core/etc. Even ipod touches best examples are ports from other systems, particularly PSP. And due to the race-to-the-bottom-pricing they'll never get a budget to compete with PSP's blockbuster games. Hell, there are multiplatform titles on Wii that look worse than the PSP version.

On the one hand you're saying that Sony should stick with UMD despite its huge disadvantages because of relatively cheap storage allowing "high quality" games, but on the other hand you're advocating a "quality be damned" policy of sticking with a massively, massively outdated system because no-one is using much more powerful systems very well. You say an arbitrary bit of hardware is essential one moment, then that hardware is irrelevant the next.

A flash powered console could be "graphically competitive" with the PSP (or even far beyond it) even with only a few hundred megs of storage. And there's no reason that carts have to stay the size they are now.

Fancy though it looked, I wasn't impressed enough by the PSP to get one. I'm hoping for a lot more than PSP with PSP2.

 

[Rolf N]

Hooray for chip generated music! Nothing sounds as good as chip generated music! not even lossless recordings of chip generated music!

What if I use a chip to play it back?

On the one hand you're saying that Sony should stick with UMD despite its huge disadvantages because of relatively cheap storage allowing "high quality" games, but on the other hand you're advocating a "quality be damned" policy of sticking with a massively, massively outdated system because no-one is using much more powerful systems very well. You say an arbitrary bit of hardware is essential one moment, then that hardware is irrelevant the next.

As hard to follow this whole debate is, I think I've caught the gist of that particular point: UMD production costs are flat. They may be higher than the minimal cost of the smallest possible cart (though I doubt it, but let's entertain the thought). OTOH cart production costs scale with capacity, and at the high end eclipse UMD production costs, by far.

Producing a UMD game is an all-you-can-eat buffet. You've paid, you're in, no more worries. Go nuts.

Producing a cart game is like doing your taxes: if you want this bit of information acknowledged, you have to go through another afternoon's worth of prep work, and you really should have started to think about this a year ago, you'd be much better prepared. So maybe you just don't do it this time.

Fancy though it looked, I wasn't impressed enough by the PSP to get one. I'm hoping for a lot more than PSP with PSP2.

Curiously enough, I always thought the PSP was kind of crappy until I got one myself. It's a very understated machine. I.e. it has much, much better ergonomics than you'd expect just looking at a picture of it. It's light.

 

[function]

What if I use a chip to play it back?

Okay, that could take some of the sting out of it. But I just think a chip tries harder if it's doing it live.

As hard to follow this whole debate is, I think I've caught the gist of that particular point: UMD production costs are flat. They may be higher than the minimal cost of the smallest possible cart (though I doubt it, but let's entertain the thought). OTOH cart production costs scale with capacity, and at the high end eclipse UMD production costs, by far.

Producing a UMD game is an all-you-can-eat buffet. You've paid, you're in, no more worries. Go nuts.

Producing a cart game is like doing your taxes: if you want this bit of information acknowledged, you have to go through another afternoon's worth of prep work, and you really should have started to think about this a year ago, you'd be much better prepared. So maybe you just don't do it this time.

I can certainly see some benefits to the all-you-can-eat approach, and it has on the whole done well for home consoles (although the 360 is doing okay), but I think the storage benefits of UMD could be easy to overstate in the context of a PSP2.

Going forwards a few years 1.8 GB isn't going to offer the advantage over carts that it has previously, and may even end up being smaller than the biggest carts. No doubt cart pricing would push developers towards the smallest cart they can deliver the product on, so you might see less FMV, more compression on dialogue (and more chip generated music!) ... but in the context of overall "quality" - particularly of graphics - I don't think going with carts will have remotely the same impact that it would have for PSP1.

If graphics are important to you, a new chipset would seem rather more important than keeping UMD.

I know people have mentioned the prospect of second generation UMD system to get around storage and data transfer rate limitations, but I just can't see Sony going that route. UMD has been abandoned as a movie format, and no-one wants to put disks in things they carry around any more.

Curiously enough, I always thought the PSP was kind of crappy until I got one myself. It's a very understated machine. I.e. it has much, much better ergonomics than you'd expect just looking at a picture of it. It's light.

Ergonomics would be a big selling point for me. Gameboy, DS, even Xbox 360 ... after a couple of hours I have seriously aching hands. The Tapwave Zodiac had probably the worst ergonomics ever though.

 

[dobwal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMKhbJEhg0s

This is comparsion of UMD versus CSO in terms of loading up a game from start up.

CSO is at 46 secs versus UMD at 1 min 25 sec.

The guy is using a SD Pro Duo Ultra II but limited by the fact the PSP can't transfer at max rate of the MC.

UMD and optical medium in general has always been about costs. With consoles, where you talking 15 Gbs and up with DVD (10.5 billion dics in the US and Canada alone since 1997) and BluRays this still holds true but when youre talking less than 4 Gb and an niche optical media the cost gap may be small enough that the technical advantages and future cost reduction may trump current cost savings.

This isn't just about the cost of the media itself because for the handheld manufacturer thats extra cost can be passed off to the pubs. Drive costs can not. And whats the cost to Sony for not only investing in the R&D of UMD but putting them in 60 million PSPs.

Does putting UMD in the PSP2 makes sense? Yes, but only in its current form and only if 1.8 Gb is still enough for handheld games for the next generation. But putting out a UMD 2.0 with higher capacity and faster transfer rates is a wasted investment, when migrating to flash would provide an cheaper alternative with better transfer rates. A flash based PSP2 would require no drive which would be replaced by a memory card slot.

Ultimately next generation, DD will penetrate deeper into the PSP market. The PSP2 will still need a physical media to take advantage for those without DD capability but that physical media will serve a market that will grow smaller and smaller over time. UMD drive and media unit costs will go up as volumes decrease as there exist no major ancillary market for UMD drives or media, while flash costs will continue to drive downward with capacity and transfer rates going up.

 

[Lazy8s]

PSP's GPU is closer in cost to that of a notebook PC than that of a cellphone. PSP's graphics have always been underpowered in the context of GPUs of its own class.

 

[darkblu]

Problem. I specified "use" giving real world examples as proof you lied. Lets assume your numbers are true. PSP can simply tile the textures to use the same total res, I've done it so I know it's possible.

And on this note i'll leave this discussion now. I've clearly been caught in a lie, and I have nothing in my defense, not against somebody who's personally tiled a texture anyway. But i leave in good terms as i've received entertainment many times over the effort from my end (I apologize if i have offended any parties in the process, I really do). Thus I bid adieu to you - the reader of this thread, and i hope you've been as entertained as i was ; )

ps: I reserve the right to occasionally drop by and read any new contributions - I just don't think i'll be able to resist.

 

[NeoTechni]

- We know that Sony are going with new hardware (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=54551)

We dont KNOW that. That's just a rumor, and I doubt it cause BC is a must

You should maybe lay off the constant accusations of lies. After all, you claimed that Xbox Live Originals only had 10 games and that MS didn't do it any more.

I dont recall saying 10, just saying there arent many. But MS did stop doing them, they even cut off Live access from XBOX originals. And that's not a lie.

On the one hand you're saying that Sony should stick with UMD despite its huge disadvantages because of relatively cheap storage allowing "high quality" games, but on the other hand you're advocating a "quality be damned" policy of sticking with a massively, massively outdated system because no-one is using much more powerful systems very well

No. I'm not saying that. I merely said PSP1s graphics are still competitive. I wasnt suggesting PSP2 will use the exact same processor, quite the opposite. I claimed it would more than likely be using a more advanced version of the same one.

I think I've caught the gist of that particular point: UMD production costs are flat. They may be higher than the minimal cost of the smallest possible cart

That is correct. Even bluray discs are cheaper than the prices of flash being given here.

Going forwards a few years 1.8 GB isn't going to offer the advantage over carts that it has previously, and may even end up being smaller than the biggest carts

Im not suggesting PSP2 use UMD1, but UMD2 which would either have more layers, or be Bluray based

You're just adorable. Quoting PSP games as 1.8GB and then going on about how few DS games use the biggest carts. Just adorable.

-Except a lot of PSP games do use or come close to using 1.8 GB.
-I used that reason to discount the one 256 MB DS game because YOU used the exact same reason. It's hypocrisy if you don't let me use your arguments in the same situation. I even said since it's a japanese RPG that means its FMV heavy and thus doesnt count, because you said the exact same thing!
-There are more multi-UMD games than there are 256 MB DS games.
A mere bell's curve statistical estimation would tell you there are a lot more 1.8 GB PSP games, thus pointing out your hypocrisy even moreso.

You can have CD quality music off a cart btw.

And how much would that add to the publishing costs. Darkblu said a feature doesnt count unless its used often. Do games often use CD quality music on carts? Chip-generated =/= CD Quality. Chip generated = MIDI quality.

PSP's GPU is closer in cost to that of a notebook PC than that of a cellphone. PSP's graphics have always been underpowered in the context of GPUs of its own class.

Wouldn't notebooks be superior to cellphones? Also, I have a port of a PC game (Gurumin) on my PSP. I've never seen a cellphone game look as good as Crisis Core. PSP's GPU hasn't been outclassed yet. Or rather, any GPU that does outclass it hasn't been used properly yet.

If graphics are important to you, a new chipset would seem rather more important than keeping UMD.

BC is extremely important, if only to compete against Nintendo's next gen DS (DSi) which has BC with DS games. People ignorantly claim PSP doesn't have enough games as it is, starting from scratch would be suicide.

Sony definitely wants to keep selling the content on the PSN store. While redoing the PS1 emulator would be possible, a PSP emulator would not be. Even the highest end portables out don't even have the power to do it. PSP2 isn't PS3 where it has unlimited space and power to work with.

And Sony definitely wants to attract the original PSP's fanbase with BC/enhanced BC (like those of us with 43 PSP games such as myself) Having BC without UMD would be a slap in the face to those of us who supported it from the start when the Go and downloads came later on and were mainly for new owners.



New sales figures are in

http://kotaku.com/5492218/psp-grabs-a-big-slice-of-the-console-war-pie-in-japan

* PSP - 64,808
* Wii - 33,880
* PlayStation 3 - 28,824
* Nintendo DSi LL - 23,611
* Nintendo DSi - 15,017
* Nintendo DS Lite - 4,316
* Xbox 360 - 2,764
* PlayStation 2 - 1,839
* PSP go - 1,275

This isn't a random thing, this is how it's been since Go came out. It had 1 week of good sales, the rest, mostly in last place.

Obviously Go is doing something wrong. And you can't say it's all due to the cost considering DSi LL costs more than DSi and is selling better.
Despite claims to the contrary, either most people don't want downloads, or don't care about the disadvantages of UMD anywhere near as much as some people here.

 

[eastmen]

Data care of NPD Group

PlayStation 2 101.9K
PlayStation 3 360.1K
PSP 133.4K
Xbox 360 422.0K
Wii 397.9K
Nintendo DS 613.2K

Obviously the PSP is doing something wrong because its been like this or worse since its launch .

Anyway once again the psp go did something wrong. It came out and has no way to let you play psp games you own and doesn't even have the full psp library online and no plans on when to put it online.

That is why people are staying away from it. Not because it lacks UMD per say. A psp 2 wouldn't have this problem because it wouldn't come with umd to begin with and all games wuld be avalible on the psn store.


I know vgchartz isn't the greatest site out there. But they do use npd and mediacreate charts for most of their numbers

They put the ds/i/ll/l at 127m ww and the psp at 57ww. They have the ds at 30m in japan vs 15m for the psp.

Its obvious that gamers perfer the ds and the lack of umd doesn't affect ds sales

 

[Lazy8s]

No, cellphones can't afford as much silicon nor power consumption for their GPUs as the PSP does, so the PSP will of course have performance advantages over smaller, multipurpose devices like mobile phones.

Even with cellphones' inherent disadvantages to graphics, the graphics cores for that market have featured better image qualities and more advanced effects like DOT3 per-pixel lighting and programmable vertex shaders since before the PSP even launched in 2004.

The graphics of the PSP have never compared favorably to those of devices with similarly large/expensive GPUs. Sony just didn't have the design expertise to match the companies which are dedicated to the craft.

 

[Squilliam]

You also have to remember that the GO! is competing with a cheaper PSP 3000 and pirated copies.

 

[eastmen]

You also have to remember that the GO! is competing with a cheaper PSP 3000 and pirated copies.

You forgot cheaper used copys.

Also the fact that the psp go's library doesn't feature all of the psps games and thus you may not be able to get what you want. And the fact that if you already own a psp and own games you'd have to rebuy them on the psp go.

IT wasn't a well thought out plan by sony.

 

[NeoTechni]

Its obvious that gamers perfer the ds and the lack of umd doesn't affect ds sales

Those are completely unrelated though. No one expects DS to play PSP games.
They do expect a PSP to do so though

Anyway once again the psp go did something wrong. It came out and has no way to let you play psp games you own and doesn't even have the full psp library online and no plans on when to put it online.

So you're agreeing with me.

You forgot cheaper used copys.

Also the fact that the psp go's library doesn't feature all of the psps games and thus you may not be able to get what you want. And the fact that if you already own a psp and own games you'd have to rebuy them on the psp go.

IT wasn't a well thought out plan by sony.

Yip, definitely agreeing.

The graphics of the PSP have never compared favorably to those of devices with similarly large/expensive GPUs

Could you show me one of those devices with better graphics than Crisis Core?
My $900 UMPC can't even do better than PSP.