Xbox Series X [XBSX] [Release November 10 2020]

[Jay]

Reduction in xsx os is probably more down to the ssd than anything else.
The apps are relatively small so can be loaded in quickly. Same for other things they currently keep resident in memory.
.
I personally wouldn't go reducing os footprint much further as you can only take from os, not give to it in the future.

As for current gen, it would just lead to an overall worse experience

 

[arhra]

Right. The key info there was the first part of allowing upto 2 minutes for the "record what happened", as that's their live buffer before being told to persist to disk. That's the look behind buffer.

The max duration actually varies by resolution - iirc it's 5m for 720p, 2m for 1080p, and 30s for 4k. Which makes sense if the buffer is a fixed size.

 

[turkey]

Doesn't Xbox One have 8GB of flash memory as well? Did MS ever disclose the exact purpose for that? I always assumed it was for storing saved states to switch between apps and if so shouldn't that also help cut down the amount of ram needed for the OS?

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-complete-xbox-one-interview

Digital Foundry: Another thing that came up from the Hot Chips presentation that was new information was the eMMC NAND which I hadn't seen any mention of. I'm told it's not available for titles. So what does it do?

Andrew Goossen: Sure. We use it as a cache system-side to improve system response and again not disturb system performance on the titles running underneath. So what it does is that it makes our boot times faster when you're not coming out of the sleep mode - if you're doing the cold boot. It caches the operating system on there. It also caches system data on there while you're actually running the titles and when you have the snap applications running concurrently. It's so that we're not going and hitting the hard disk at the same time that the title is. All the game data is on the HDD. We wanted to be moving that head around and not worrying about the system coming in and monkeying with the head at an inopportune time.

 

[BRiT]

What I like from that announcement:

• You will get more from your Xbox Game Pass Ultimate membership. Finally, today we’re announcing that this September, in supported countries, we’re bringing Xbox Game Pass and Project xCloud together at no additional cost for Xbox Game Pass Ultimate members. With cloud gaming in Game Pass Ultimate, you will be able to play over 100 Xbox Game Pass titles on your phone or tablet. And because Xbox Live connects across devices, you can play along with the nearly 100 million Xbox Live players around the world. So when Halo Infinite launches, you and your friends can play together and immerse yourselves in the Halo universe as Master Chief—anywhere you go and across devices.
  
  Cloud gaming in Xbox Game Pass Ultimate means your games are no longer locked to the living room. You can connect more than ever with friends and family through gaming. And just like you do with your movie and music streaming services, when cloud gaming launches into Xbox Game Pass Ultimate, you can continue your game wherever you left off on any of your devices.

 

[BRiT]

Lets keep the console warring and trolling out of B3D.

 

[eastmen]

I wonder if they have more up their sleeves other than just the HDR stuff...

Specifically "next-gen technology"? What is next-gen specific? RT and ML?

machine learning. Run at 4k with an enhanced amd fidelity function ?

 

[cheapchips]

That I think that the no exclusives is probably less to do with consumer friendly as all first party is going into gamepass and i expected xcloud to be rolled into it.
That being the case, with xcloud only being current gen based it would make the whole messaging harder, add the fact that their new studios current projects probably targeting current gen also, probably makes sense to present it as consumer friendly.

Not quite sure I follow you here. X1S based blades are a stop gap. Into next year it'll be using XSX's.

Although to contradict myself, using the XSX SOC will mean they can probably host 4 times the X1S instances on a blade as they can with current hardware.

 

[Jay]

Not quite sure I follow you here. X1S based blades are a stop gap. Into next year it'll be using XSX's.

Although to contradict myself, using the XSX SOC will mean they can probably host 4 times the X1S instances on a blade as they can with current hardware.

Its a stop gap, but a long one, don't expect xsx xcloud for at least a year.

MS has you spending money on their games via direct purchases or Game Pass, I doubt they care what devices you own. They're still getting money from you.

They will care if your only using it for their first party games.
It's a bit like political parties that rely on their current members that just age without getting newer younger members in. Works for the short term but long term not good for them.

 

[eastmen]

Its a stop gap, but a long one, don't expect xsx xcloud for at least a year.

A year from today ? Maybe but seems unlikely. You should start to see it first or second quarter of next year (calendar year not ms fiscal)

 

[Jay]

A year from today ? Maybe but seems unlikely. You should start to see it first or second quarter of next year (calendar year not ms fiscal)

I'd be surprised at a wide spread roll out due to having to meet demand for the console for a while, you could be right, we'll see.

I personally expect ms will have decent first party output. But you'll be able to play them on the current system until you can't.
By then it's very possible people are invested in ps5, psnow (which i expect sony to improve next gen) etc

 

[eastmen]

I'd be surprised at a wide spread roll out due to having to meet demand for the console for a while, you could be right, we'll see.

I personally expect ms will have decent first party output. But you'll be able to play them on the current system until you can't.
By then it's very possible people are invested in ps5, psnow (which i expect sony to improve next gen) etc

They are offering it to all game pass ultimate users. I expect that number to sky rocket during XSX launch. The XSX hardware is going to be able to run multiple instances of xbox one games. So i think even if some dies don't make the cut for the home console can they can used in xcloud. Instead of 4 streams they will run 2 streams or something.

 

[Ronaldo8]

MS will have xbox / pc exclusives. There may be a large amount of people who love playstation exclusvies but MS is building a pretty good case for the xbox ecosystem.

Xbox series x is the highest tflop machine on the market
PC is where performance is at and you can upgrade till your heart content
game pass ultimate ties both platforms together
Game pass ultimate starting in sept will include xcloud.

MS is investing into updates to its software we have griffon coming ,we have the xbox beta app on pc which is much better than the old one and we have a revamped xbox experience on the consoles itself.

In just a week we will see their first party vision in terms of games.

Its starting to add up as a great package and platform for serious gamers.

Sony might have fans of their first party games but if the first party games they like aren't out right away the xbox platform may be the better first choice for a lot of people when you add up all the features.

What is project Griffin? Is it related to xcloud?

 

[Ronaldo8]

James Stanard giving up a tiny sliver of info on SFS when prodded:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1284183535603990528

https://twitter.com/x/status/1284184809955160066

 

[function]

James Stanard giving up a tiny sliver of info on SFS when prodded:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1284183535603990528

https://twitter.com/x/status/1284184809955160066

I thought this was how we were all understanding it worked anyway (aside from the specific of it being a 64KB page size)?

PRTs but better in terms of overhead, knowing which page you need and when for every possible texture page directly through the hardware, and hardware managed blending of mips to hide pop in (instead of having to write shaders to do it after guestimating when particular pages have been brought in)?

 

[Ronaldo8]

I thought this was how we were all understanding it worked anyway (aside from the specific of it being a 64KB page size)?

PRTs but better in terms of overhead, knowing which page you need and when for every possible texture page directly through the hardware, and hardware managed blending of mips to hide pop in (instead of having to write shaders to do it after guestimating when particular pages have been brought in)?

Yes...but up to now we did not have any indication on the level of granularity permitted by SFS. No wonder MS has been claiming a 2.5x multiplier effect.

 

[BRiT]

Yes...but up to now we did not have any indication on the level of granularity permitted by SFS.

We did, ever since the initial deep-dives and interviews.

Direct Microsoft Xbox Statement 2020-03-16: https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/03/16/xbox-series-x-glossary/#:~:text=Sampler Feedback Streaming (SFS) – A component of,needs for a scene, as it needs it.

Sampler Feedback Streaming (SFS) – A component of the Xbox Velocity Architecture, SFS is a feature of the Xbox Series X hardware that allows games to load into memory, with fine granularity, only the portions of textures that the GPU needs for a scene, as it needs it. This enables far better memory utilization for textures, which is important given that every 4K texture consumes 8MB of memory. Because it avoids the wastage of loading into memory the portions of textures that are never needed, it is an effective 2x or 3x (or higher) multiplier on both amount of physical memory and SSD performance.

DF 2020-03-16 Article: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-inside-xbox-series-x-full-specs

As textures have ballooned in size to match 4K displays, efficiency in memory utilisation has got progressively worse - something Microsoft was able to confirm by building in special monitoring hardware into Xbox One X's Scorpio Engine SoC. "From this, we found a game typically accessed at best only one-half to one-third of their allocated pages over long windows of time," says Goossen. "So if a game never had to load pages that are ultimately never actually used, that means a 2-3x multiplier on the effective amount of physical memory, and a 2-3x multiplier on our effective IO performance."

 

[AzBat]

Seagate made a site for their Series X Storage Expansion Card. Nothing really new other than maybe a new pic & it has a 3-year limited warranty. It does let you sign up to be notified of new info, but after registering it says to keep an eye out on the Twitter page for up to the minute info.

https://www.seagate.com/consumer/play/storage-expansion-for-xbox-series-x/

Tommy McClain

 

[pjbliverpool]

I thought this was how we were all understanding it worked anyway (aside from the specific of it being a 64KB page size)?

PRTs but better in terms of overhead, knowing which page you need and when for every possible texture page directly through the hardware, and hardware managed blending of mips to hide pop in (instead of having to write shaders to do it after guestimating when particular pages have been brought in)?

So as I understand it Sampler Feedback is available on all DX12U hardware and it's just the "streaming" part that's unique to the XSX. And the streaming part equates to custom hardware to blend the transition between the current mip and the new mip if the new mip doesn't arrive in time for when it's needed.

So if my understanding is correct then it begs the question: how is basic Sampler Feedback supposed to work without that hardware to blend the mips? Was it implemented in hardware with the expectation that we'd simply have to live with sudden jarring transitions? Or was there an expectation that as you say, the blend could be done in software via shaders?

 

[t0mb3rt]

So as I understand it Sampler Feedback is available on all DX12U hardware and it's just the "streaming" part that's unique to the XSX. And the streaming part equates to custom hardware to blend the transition between the current mip and the new mip if the new mip doesn't arrive in time for when it's needed.

So if my understanding is correct then it begs the question: how is basic Sampler Feedback supposed to work without that hardware to blend the mips? Was it implemented in hardware with the expectation that we'd simply have to live with sudden jarring transitions? Or was there an expectation that as you say, the blend could be done in software via shaders?

I've had the same question and I've always just assumed that it would be useful for VRAM usage and GPU memory bandwidth since you could use Sampler Feedback to discard the unneeded texture data from VRAM and you'd be streaming less data from VRAM to the GPU.

 

[function]

So as I understand it Sampler Feedback is available on all DX12U hardware and it's just the "streaming" part that's unique to the XSX. And the streaming part equates to custom hardware to blend the transition between the current mip and the new mip if the new mip doesn't arrive in time for when it's needed.

So if my understanding is correct then it begs the question: how is basic Sampler Feedback supposed to work without that hardware to blend the mips? Was it implemented in hardware with the expectation that we'd simply have to live with sudden jarring transitions? Or was there an expectation that as you say, the blend could be done in software via shaders?

Well I'm out on a branch here speculating, but from reading the Sampler Feedback stuff for DX12U I think on PC you can get, literally feedback on what was hit in memory and what was missed. So even with just that, through either shaders or the CPU with API feedback you could then choose what to do, and then implement some kind of software driven mitigation strategy. It's unlikely that Nvidia DX12U stuff - as awesome as it is - has an equivalent to MS's custom hardware solution for seemingly "free" handling of transitions. Obviously, the more that's handled in software, the greater the overheads are likely to be. But with a bit of time, a bit more hardware, and some creative thinking the PC has proven for about the last 25 years that it'll find a way in some form or another...

Now on XSX, I *think* that through some combination of hardware and API back end you can set the system up to automatically request and then begin to blend in the higher-res mip map once it's no longer "missed". We know from MS that hardware is definitely involved in managing both the fetching and the blending, so there reasonably has to be more to it than just Sampler Feedback and Trilinear filtering. Maybe it's a hardware shortcut to skip writing a shader or CPU code to handle it, freeing up the overhead and reducing latency. I dunno!

So in other words, in DX12U on PC, I'm guessing that the Sampler Feedback data on individual page misses or hits is also available, but that more is left up to the developer to manage / evaluate through either shaders or the some kind of feedback to the CPU. Remember that this isn't all on MS through the DX12U API, it's also on Nvidia, Intel and AMD, their respective hardware, and what they want to implement in their APIs. And some of the stuff that can support this (well, basically Nvidia) is knocking on for a couple of years old now and a lot older than MS and their SFS reveal.

So in other words, if you know what developers on console are likely to want to do with Sampler Feedback on your particular console, you can probably build in some specific hardware acceleration. But there's normally another option, especially if time is on your side ...