XBox One, PS4, DRM, and You

[-tkf-]

Let's wait and see what happens before we talk market share here ..I have no doult Sony will out sell Microsoft at launch .

I'm not a Microsoft fan i'm a gamer .

digital is the future in my opinion now I want a digital future where you can rent games sell games .......but in this future developers will get a cut if these markets which means more money for all the creative people behind the game .

Which means that as a gamer I win as the creative people get more money to create more for me to enjoy .
Look the game industry is in trouble because of price and pressure from cheap fun five minute pass the time games on smart phones .

They need to find new ways of making money from there games taking a small cut from used game sales and rentals I'm OK with .

That's my personal thoughts about it all .
Let those who create the thing I love have a share of all money made from there creation .

To my life out look it just seems fair to me personally

So how much money do you think the industry is "losing" from used games sales, put a number on it, it must be gigantic when two of the biggest publishers claims they have NO problem with it.

And you started out with a bold suggestion that DLC exclusives could be the answer to no Online Activation for Disc based games. So then you should be able to answer this..

So question, do you really believe that Activision, EA, UBISOFT would drop half their potential market just for second hand sales? And by the looks of it, the PS4 market will be bigger than the XBONE

 

[Squilliam]

They may have done the next closest thing but physical media isn't gone.

And some people still buy CDs, mind you.

USB flash drives can never match the price of disks, which just cost too little to make, and USBs are still physical, and not "all digital".

Well then it is a good thing they are reusable. So what is the difference really between going to a store and sticking your dongle in and getting your game on and getting it on disc? I'd hate to imagine a world where dongle's aren't reusable, you'd have to be very careful where you put it!

1. PC, 2. Sony, 3. MS, I thought it would be obvious, since you were the one who started to categorize it like that :smile:

How do you lend on PSN? I hadn't heard of it.

I've seen EA, MS and other companies to pull a plug on their games only two years after their release, making the MP unplayable. Nothing from Valve yet. Same with Windows, DOS is gone, the support in Windows is gone, but you can still play those games. You can go around these kind of things on the PC.

Well that's a life. There are pros/cons to everything. Some things can be kept whilst others must be discarded.

Losing a Steam account is pretty hard, since you can IP lock your account and recover it with just one proof of purchase. So I'm definitely not worried about that.

Not everyone goes through the precautions you have.

Sure, we're talking about DRM, but that doesn't mean you should exclude things like prices and other inherent positives of any given platform, that change the way you see the restrictions imposed by the DRM.

Positives and negatives huh? So when publishers do extreme sales because they know that they'll get the money even though the games will never be played do the consumers benefit more than if on average people pay more but play more as well? Think holistically.

Games on consoles pretty much always start at $60, if I can't sell it because of the DRM, that is one thing. If I can wait 2-3 months and the game is suddenly 25-50% off(and goes up to 90% off in the first year), than I have no problem with that. You can't compare one without the other.

Yep I like that too. I guess that's why I'm a Steam customer, huh?

 

[brasnial]

It's cried poverty from day one and you fell for it, its worth something like 100billion how much does it need.
ps: you still havnt told us when you sell your car or your house what percentage of the money you will be giving to the people who created those items
pps: im surprised your against the free market thats quite an unusual stance.

I'm not against a free market cars and houses are nit games and never should be compared to games in my opinion .I own a car it cost me thousands of pounds a year to keep it running road tax petrol ...MOT..... I own my own house its cost me money in up keep ..sure I could let it go to pot .

Cars cost us money in up keep ...a house goes up in value every year its a investment for my old age ....these things have nothing to do with gaming .

A creative mind invents a game now is it unfair to give the creative person behind his creation a cut of all income generated by his creation .

Look used games I'm OK with but come on in ten years you will be selling code not a disk and to do that you will pay a small fee to the creative mind behind it ...the same with rentals ...is that really so bad

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I agree, it's just silly to say windows has more appeal simply because many times more people choose to buy it over other products.

1. A healthy number of people don't chose Windows, it was given to them. 2. Macs and OSX aren't an option for a huge number of people ($$). 3. It was about the relative appeal of Windows 8 as a product. A 5% adoption rate is hardly a sign that it's wildly popular. But like I said above, Windows 7 does what most people want.

 

[Strange]

I would have gone pure digital and set up mall kiosks for people with slower Internet connections plus the ability to copy game data from the system itself to a thumb drive so it can be installed on another system (of course you'd have to pay for the license). A pure digital system doesn't need 24 hour checks.

No, that just wouldn't work in all the different countries and different lifestyles and limitations.

 

[Davros]

A creative mind invents a game now is it unfair to give the creative person behind his creation a cut of all income generated by his creation .

A creative mind also makes a coffee table a creative mind also makes a statue so you believe everytime a coffee table is resold the carpenter should get a cut the sculptor ??

...these things have nothing to do with gaming

so what they are all products of a creative mind (your criteria)

ps: you are against a free market you cannot shop around for the best price if you sell your game it must be to an authorized reseller ms are restricting who can buy and sell used games and you think thats a good thing..

 

[MrFloopy]

1. A healthy number of people don't chose Windows, it was given to them. 2. Macs and OSX aren't an option for a huge number of people ($$). 3. It was about the relative appeal of Windows 8 as a product. A 5% adoption rate is hardly a sign that it's wildly popular. But like I said above, Windows 7 does what most people want.

So apart from the reasons people choose windows over other solutions, there are no reasons for people to chose windows over other solutions. Simple, really.

 

[Jwm]

How about DD with a single use disc for those with no Internet?

If the hdd crashes the disc is worthless, but they could find Internet and reinstall.

No need for a 24 hour check if you cannot share or trade/sell like most digital only.

 

[dagamer]

How about DD with a single use disc for those with no Internet?

If the hdd crashes the disc is worthless, but they could find Internet and reinstall.

No need for a 24 hour check if you cannot share or trade/sell like most digital only.

GameStop would be pissed. This entire scheme is because Microsoft still has to please them somehow.

 

[Cranky]

I just don't get why everyone's up in arms over Microsoft's DRM .

Look if you game as a hobby like I do ....I've been gaming since space invaders you want developers and the creative people to make money not lose money .
The business plan as it stands is failing and a way has to be found to make game making profitable for all not just a few big games .

Doing away with the second hand market as its stands is just one way of trying to make profit .

I've seen the rise and fall of arcades ......developer after developer go out of business because it became unprofitable .

A developer publisher they have to make money used games make them no money renting a game makes them no money .

The truth is a game can be brought for in England where I am for £ 40 new .
now this game may get sold on by you average customer and pass through two or three hands for a money.

in the end a £40 game may have generated £100 in its life time been played by three or four customers but the publisher.. developer only got a cut of one sale .the same with renting how much money are they losing there as well.

This means they miss out of another two or three pay days under Microsoft's DRM this will end .

Now I for one would prefer more return for the creative mind behind the hobby I love .
Used game sellers .......rental services they leach money from the creative minds they make profit but give nothing back to the creative minds behind the hobby I love .

Rental used games sales are OK but come on give a cut back to the creative guys who make it all possible .

Under Microsoft's DRM this will be possible those who funded and create such wonderful adventures for us to enjoy should get a cut of all money generated by there hard work .

Ethics people in a fully digital market place used game sales are still possible same as rentals the only difference is the creative minds behind it all can get a cut unlike today.

Since when has giving money to creative people to create more been bad .

Wow a reasonable post! LOL

People get their knickers in a bunch over nothing. Certain economic realities exist that are driving these decisions. No one is out to screw the consumer intentionally. That is simply bad business.

The biggest issue is the disconnect between ownership rights and IP rights. The right of first sale really shouldn't apply to IP protected content. The IP rights should trump consumer rights. That is whole point of IP, to protect against unfair/unlawful exploitation of IP. In the digital age, content does not lose value, therefore each used game is exactly equivalent to a new game. The only loss of value between the two relates to the packaging. The situation is not true with analogue physical media based IP.

 

[Pugger]

I choose Steam or XBLA where I would not sell on disc.

Yes I would be upset, but since I allowed it to happen I would have to be only upset with myself. If I had entered into a contract with a publisher excluding them the rights of second hand sales then I would be upset with them.

And if Publishers now want to protect their IP on PS4 how do they go about? Edge has an aticle here http://www.edge-online.com/news/e3-...ar-policies-across-both-consoles-say-sources/

The interesting point of the article was for me "We were also told that final publishing agreements will not be drawn up for at least another month, so the terms of engagement could yet change once more before each console launches at the end of the year."

Will be interesting to say if the developers do anything with regards to DRM on the PS4, although at this point I can't see what they can.

 

[Billy Idol]

I guess the most important thing about Sony stating that they do not support this is the following: If they decided to go MS style right away, there would have been no debate, no discussion about all this...we could only have accepted the situation as a user and 'deal with it' (OT: Adam Orth).

Now, the discussion did start because of Sony. Publisher see that they could also make some positive marketing, influence the image and maybe at the end even generates more sales (?), if they do not support DRM...this obviously bothers a lot of people and may influence their shopping habits.

For me, this is very important, especially since there are so many people out there that follow their favourite brand whatever it does. It is kind of a balance. I myself am sceptical if this turns really out the way Sony wants us to believe...but whatever will turn out in the end...at least, we have now a debate and this feels right.

 

[Kb-Smoker]

Even if Ms back tracks on drm they still are in a terrible spot. Still are over priced and under power compared to the ps4.

At this point they should just ride it out.

 

[MrFox]

Wow a reasonable post! LOL

People get their knickers in a bunch over nothing. Certain economic realities exist that are driving these decisions. No one is out to screw the consumer intentionally. That is simply bad business.

The biggest issue is the disconnect between ownership rights and IP rights. The right of first sale really shouldn't apply to IP protected content. The IP rights should trump consumer rights. That is whole point of IP, to protect against unfair/unlawful exploitation of IP. In the digital age, content does not lose value, therefore each used game is exactly equivalent to a new game. The only loss of value between the two relates to the packaging. The situation is not true with analogue physical media based IP.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Everything has IP. My pencil has IP, trademarks, trade dress, and copyrights. So you're saying nobody should be allowed to resell anything ever? Are you saying I can't resell my car without Honda getting a part of the sale? It has IPs about it's designs and production processes. It has a lot of software in it. Must I melt all the parts into their primary components and resell only the molten metal and plastic? Some of these polymers and alloys have IPs protecting them, so I also need to separate the atoms.

 

[Rockster]

Add on to the fact that these 10 accounts probably have to be intertwined. Being in one family excludes you the possibility from entering another family.

The accounts are not intertwined. Ever "owner" get's to share their library with whatever 10 people he or she chooses. So, I can have access to more than one shared library, should I be on multiple "owners" lists, but would not have rights to share from these shares. You can only share games you "own".

 

[scooby_dooby]

Windows 8 has sold more 100 million copies since November... that was as of April... nothing on sale by any tech vendor beats that. Nothing. No phone, nor device, and certainly not any other OS.

It's the modern day Vista. In fact, it's underperforming Vista:
http://www.extremetech.com/computin...-windows-8-adoption-is-almost-at-a-standstill

You don't measure the success of an OS by raw, out of context, sales numbers. You do it by looking at adoption rates. and customer satisfaction, both of which at an all time low. It's as close to a failure as a modern Windows OS could be.

Sorry for the off-topic, I'm surprised we even had to hash this out it's so obvious... the only reason I brought it up was an example of MS's failure to execute on ideas, and being out of touch with customer needs/feedback.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Some posts moved here.

 

[Rockster]

You have no idea what you're talking about. Everything has IP. My pencil has IP, trademarks, trade dress, and copyrights. So you're saying nobody should be allowed to resell anything ever? Are you saying I can't resell my car without Honda getting a part of the sale? It has IPs about it's designs and production processes. It has a lot of software in it. Must I melt all the parts into their primary components and resell only the molten metal and plastic? Some of these polymers and alloys have IPs protecting them, so I also need to separate the atoms.

Cars and pencils are consumables and not the same after you are through with them. I might only get another 10,000 miles out of your Honda and have to smell the remnants of your late night partying.

Not the same as getting a new Honda. Game is going to be the same experience no matter how many times its been used. Though that would be an interesting concept. What if there was a way to reduce graphic fidelity and performance on used games. That would probably help to limit / cap that market in such a way as to not so significantly dampen new car sales.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That's it! Every game starts to show wear after playing for xx hours, and you can log in to the internet for a service to get it brushed up as good as new. Let's say a pound/dollar/euro a pop. You can hold out as long as you care, and then when the popin is just a bit too much and the textures a bit too blurry and the shiny-shine dulled and the volumetric lighting looking a bit 2D, you pay the service fee and get it sorted.

You can even have people pop up in message windows when a loading screen appears offering to wipe the virtual camera lens clean for you.

 

[Cjail]

^^^
Isn't that called software degradation.
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Bohemia Interactive use it for Arma to counter piracy?!