Xbox One Post-Release Examination

The Xbox One is only 1.3TFLOPS I'm sure they could have came close to that with a $299 price tag having good enough graphics.
The XB1 launched at $500 with Kinect at 1.3 TF. How do you propose that $300 is reachable? That'd only be possible if MS completely screwed up the XB1's design at spent $200 on an extra 15% performance or something. Even half the performance, 0.7 TF, wouldn't have dropped the price $200.
 
The XB1 launched at $500 with Kinect at 1.3 TF. How do you propose that $300 is reachable? That'd only be possible if MS completely screwed up the XB1's design at spent $200 on an extra 15% performance or something. Even half the performance, 0.7 TF, wouldn't have dropped the price $200.

4GB of RAM,Smaller processor that would require less space & less cooling,
No embedded ESRAM on the GPU and so on but I'm not the one who had the idea for a $299 console I was talking about the console from the leaked documents.

They managed to end up with a bigger more expensive console with less power than their competition while using processors from the same company. So I would say they screwed up somewhere.
 
That's what happens when you have less power, you only have one way to compete, price.

Price alone isn't enough.
Simply cutting the price would not assure the Xbox One a long therm success.
 
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No embedded ESRAM on the GPU and so on but I'm not the one who had the idea for a $299 console I was talking about the console from the leaked documents.

You qua9lified that leaked design -
$299 Set-top box with Kinect.
A $299 console with Kinect would be far less powerful than PS4 - it'd have to be to accommodate $100 of Kinect, unless MS were to foot a crazy-big loss-leader. At $399 without Kinect, they could have matched PS4 exactly. At $399 with Kinect, they'd need to be under PS4's spec. At $299, they'd be well under.

They managed to end up with a bigger more expensive console with less power than their competition while using processors from the same company. So I would say they screwed up somewhere.
There design choices may not be the best, but it's silly to suggest that they overspent by $200 and could have had a very similar machine for $299 with Kinect. the original idea wasn't going to fly as a games console. Certainly not a true next-gen games console. So MS combined a next-gen games console with Kinect, and it came with a suitable pricetag ($399 console like rivals with Kinect adding $100, plus let's not forget the whole system design to incorporate that Kinect including DSPs, VM OS, etc.).
 
I like my Xbox One a lot, and I'll stick with it. But it's still a heck of a shame it's not at least as many flops as PS4. That way I could own it without any nagging regrets whatsoever. Now if it was lets say, 2.4 teraflops or above, that would just make the decision even more clear cut. I would be confident in the future potential and owning the best product.

I don't quite follow this. It was known before launch what the specifications of both consoles were so you knew when you bought (or pre-ordered) an Xbox One that graphically it was less powerful than PlayStation 4.

Surely you picked Xbox because the whole package, but I would imagine presumably the exclusive games, were more compelling? That's certainly why I've been buying Sony first for the last four generations. Sony's first and second party games are more appealing, as a package, than Microsoft's. That's not to say I didn't love Halo, Crackdown and Gears of War and why I'm hoping to pickup an Xbox One when the Master Chief Collection is released. Assuming Microsoft don't screw up the remasters.

I know people value different aspects of consoles differently but for me, the games far outweigh the technology. If I wanted the greatest gaming tech I'd still be building my own PCs.
 
My problem with the console isn't that the PS4 has more Flops because Sony isn't "really" my comparison standard. The XBox franchise was founded on delivering the PC game experience into the console market. That's what I expected from MS to deliver. A console which allows modern games at 1080p/60hz without any relevant compromises. The XBox/360 managed that in their time. The X1 does not.
 
bkillian,
Do you expect MS to ever get its head out of its ass? The whole XBone launch seems like one big fumble. How could they seemingly F things up so badly after the momentum they gained with the 360?

Rewind 8 years and replace MS with Sony and 360 w/PS2 and you could ask the same question. MS/Sony had their vision for what consumers wanted and were willing to pay for, they were both wrong. Over time Sony managed to catch up with MS during the PS360 gen, I'm looking forward to seeing what manoeuvres MS does to achieve the same.
 
The XBox franchise was founded on delivering the PC game experience into the console market.
The PC market is so stretched now, it's not really possible. A decent gaming PC is SLI'd or Titan class GPUs and an i7, components a console could never match at a mainstream price-point. The options were a me-too console on the same basic specs and designs playing the same library save a 10% difference with exclusives, or something radically different with a strong USP that could reach a far larger audience.

It's also worth noting that the Xbox franchise wasn't founded on delivering the PC game experience in the console market, but as a way to fight Sony et al. The original machine was a thrown-together monster with little careful strategy just brute-forcing (at considerable cost) a slice of the market. 360 was well designed with a great GPU choice that put it in good stead against PC, but I wouldn't say the intention was PC performance in a console. It was just tackling the console space in the usual way - as much hardware bang-for-your-buck as they could manage, and then a lot of PR mudslinging all round when the paper specs were fought over. PC has run as an independent platform alongside consoles. One can also say Sony were more about getting the 'PC experience' (high end graphics performance) in a console, with a truly mainstream 3D console followed by a monster followed by a clumsy beast with a 'supercomputer processor'. XBox only trumped PS2 by being later and less carefully engineered, which is hardly indicative of a target to bring PC gaming to the console space.

One can look back at the first two Xboxes and see they were targeting high-end console gaming, but it'd be wrong to extrapolate that into an underlying Xbox ethos. Xbox was firstly about winning the living room away from Sony. Then it was about making money from games machines. Now it's still about making as much money as possible, and MS will make whatever choices and changes to facilitate that.
 
I'm looking forward to seeing what manoeuvres MS does to achieve the same.
PS3 was still a core gaming machine with media frills. Xbox One's vision was, arguably, 40/60 to 30/07 media/gaming and Microsoft made architectural and design decisions that may limit their ability to up their gaming focus. For Sony it was easier: remove card slots, PS2 backward compatibility, and yet the console still played games and played back CDs, DVDs, Blu-rays, MP3s, MP4s, anything of DNLA and so on. The sacrifices affected a few niche uses. And as devs began to work with and optimise for Cell, third parties achieved close-to parity with 360 games while exclusives like Uncharted and The Last of Us [subjectively on my part] technically blew most 360 games out of the water - as well as being great fun.

I don't know if Microsoft have much hardware slack to work with the way Sony did with Cell but I do agree, it'll be very interesting to see what they do. As a gamer, I'm hoping they do the easy and obvious thing and develop some fantastic exclusive games. I'm not sure trying to beat Sony with raw technology is a) worth the effort, or b) is even possible. So do the gaming thing with your games console, Microsoft :yep2:
 
Games are generally not targeting Titan class GPUs though. That range of performance is only marketable to the smallest subset of people who play games, and even the smallest subset of just people who game on PCs. The range of PC performance is not as significant as the experience of PC games for most users. What most users are looking for is more important. And that is great performance at an affordable price.

I've got a GTX 760, a nicely middle-high end performance GPU, an example of great performance at a reasonable price, for me. It plays about every game I put on it at 60+ FPS. The most demanding might make it drop to 35+ at 1080p in demanding scenes, but that's games like ARMA3 which are definitely the kind of games that are the exception, and not the rule. Delivering a console with the same ballpark performance as my PC was not impossible, and it's exactly what PS4 has done.

It's probably the best designed PlayStation for the time it has released, or maybe at least as well accurately targeted as the original PlayStation ones. Technology ripe for the time. What CDs and 3D and price did for the original PlayStation, the contemporary design, hardware performance, price, and digital-services (PlayStation Plus, digital game sales) has done for PlayStation 4.

It's made my every-generation decision that much easier this time around, not that it was the only reason.
 
It's clear off the shelf would have been cheaper than all the customizations that MS did for X1 just looking at the competition. Whether fully customizing the CPU and GPU really helped them into creating a better seamless OS/TV/Kinect experience than doing something purely off the shelf and brute forcing it.

If the strength of the customizations is ultimately for other design goals, I really hope over the next 2 years they put their focus there; expand on Apps, and on other elements that make a console 'smart and hard to live without' as clearly graphics prowess is currently not their strongest suit. It's not terrible it's just not winning public opinion anytime soon/ever.

A fully non-compromised Windows 9 Xbox One and I think the market will open for them. To be able to push their application session to any other Windows 9 device might be a big win for them. Ie. how Macs can push to their iPads with OSX Yosemite. Pushing to Xbox One is a nice feature that doesn't seem out of reach.
 
An observation I've just made about XB1 being less powerful having played a few game demos on PS3 - although 900p et al are okay now, a few years down the line, devs are going to be pushing the resolutions lower to get more in. Same as PS3 getting blurry, stuttery games now. When games start rendering at 900p on PS4 and looking almost as good as 1080p according to DF, XB1 will be rendering 720p games. Suddenly it sounds really...weak sauce. 2018 games at 720p when sets are 1080p and 4k. I'd rather games dropped the pixel quality to keep IQ and framerate up, but they don't. So this points to actually shorter legs on the console. You'll get great games for a few years, then they'll really start to suffer. It depends how much compensation can be found with new techniques.

I'm tired of PS3's lack of IQ. I want an upgrade. I won't make the change yet as there aren't the games I want, but when it comes time, XB1 is definitely off the cards because it doesn't have gaming longevity IMO. Even if it came with swishy exclusives, if they look rough I'll lose interest. I wonder if that sentiment will be shared by the gaming populace? History suggests not, but the times they are a-changing, and people are more informed than ever while the libraries are so uniform.
 
bkillian,
Do you expect MS to ever get its head out of its ass? The whole XBone launch seems like one big fumble. How could they seemingly F things up so badly after the momentum they gained with the 360?

You're assuming that the final decisions makers were/are in tune with the street.

Most of these decisions tend to be politically charged decisions by those who are favored for that time or have earned the most clout to overrule others.

Look at the PS3. Krazy Ken was running around with a foot long dick, slapping anyone who even had an opinion because he could do no wrong. Instead, he tanked the company for billions.

I'd imagine whoever inside MS had the power at that time did the same.
 
Look at the PS3. Krazy Ken was running around with a foot long dick, slapping anyone who even had an opinion because he could do no wrong.
That's a pretty serious allegation. Any evidence (which can be moved into a suitable thread if so)?
 
I don't quite follow this. It was known before launch what the specifications of both consoles were so you knew when you bought (or pre-ordered) an Xbox One that graphically it was less powerful than PlayStation 4.

Surely you picked Xbox because the whole package, but I would imagine presumably the exclusive games, were more compelling? That's certainly why I've been buying Sony first for the last four generations. Sony's first and second party games are more appealing, as a package, than Microsoft's. That's not to say I didn't love Halo, Crackdown and Gears of War and why I'm hoping to pickup an Xbox One when the Master Chief Collection is released. Assuming Microsoft don't screw up the remasters.

I know people value different aspects of consoles differently but for me, the games far outweigh the technology. If I wanted the greatest gaming tech I'd still be building my own PCs.

Well said Sir. I dont really understand why people are so fixated on flops this gen. Or even what I guess would be flops per dollar amount. I understand alot of people still feel ill will about all the DRM before launch as well as manditory kinect. The thing is though Drm never happened and Ms just recently gave the option for unbundled Kinect. That sounds like the opposite of head up their ass to me. Still there seems to be so many people with Doom and Gloom outlook. I will remind those people once again that the Xbox One isn't even a year old yet. Also it hasnt even launched in all planned markets yet. It seems this gen is the exact opposite of last gen with the Ps3 being much more expensive than the 360 while offering less power graphically. Well the Ps3 went on to do just fine did it not? One difference though is that MS have been much quicker to respond to their issues this time than Sony was last gen. This gen is only beginning and it is much too early to be deeming the XB One a failure.
 
An observation I've just made about XB1 being less powerful having played a few game demos on PS3 - although 900p et al are okay now, a few years down the line, devs are going to be pushing the resolutions lower to get more in. Same as PS3 getting blurry, stuttery games now. When games start rendering at 900p on PS4 and looking almost as good as 1080p according to DF, XB1 will be rendering 720p games. Suddenly it sounds really...weak sauce. 2018 games at 720p when sets are 1080p and 4k. I'd rather games dropped the pixel quality to keep IQ and framerate up, but they don't. So this points to actually shorter legs on the console. You'll get great games for a few years, then they'll really start to suffer. It depends how much compensation can be found with new techniques.

I'm tired of PS3's lack of IQ. I want an upgrade. I won't make the change yet as there aren't the games I want, but when it comes time, XB1 is definitely off the cards because it doesn't have gaming longevity IMO. Even if it came with swishy exclusives, if they look rough I'll lose interest. I wonder if that sentiment will be shared by the gaming populace? History suggests not, but the times they are a-changing, and people are more informed than ever while the libraries are so uniform.

I understand this point of view Shifty, but your forgeting that Ps360 games got much better looking each year. The same thing will continue this gen. Last gen consoles hung around a little to long. If these new consoles return to the normal 5 year cycle we may not get into the whole dropping IQ to sustain performance. Who knows? One thing that I personally hope for with the Ps5/Xbox? systems is that they dont shoot for 4k. So much grunt will be wasted on resolution as opposed to "Avatar" quality visuals.
 
Last gen consoles hung around a little to long.
That's a fair point I had overlooked. PS3's looking more like an old dog because it is an old dog! X1 might be plenty enough to tide one over to the next generation. We'll see early years at lower quality, the middle years with the hardware producing better results as it's mastered, and then the drop. But still, the lack of headroom is a mild worry. It's unlikely XB1 will be hitting 900+p @ higher framerates without PS4 offering a notable better experience. If you had to make a choice for the most 'future proof' console, PS4 will be playing COD 15 and FIFA 19 to the better quality.
 
That's a fair point I had overlooked. PS3's looking more like an old dog because it is an old dog! X1 might be plenty enough to tide one over to the next generation. We'll see early years at lower quality, the middle years with the hardware producing better results as it's mastered, and then the drop. But still, the lack of headroom is a mild worry. It's unlikely XB1 will be hitting 900+p @ higher framerates without PS4 offering a notable better experience. If you had to make a choice for the most 'future proof' console, PS4 will be playing COD 15 and FIFA 19 to the better quality.

Remember we are almost a year into this console generation and MS gave back some power. So it depends on when the power diffrences really become apparent . Does it start to happen greatly in year 3 ? If so then it could hurt the xbox one's legs. Does it happen in year 4 ? Then we may already be hearing about a new xbox . Does it happen in year 5 ? Then a new xbox may already be announced.

I'm willing to bet that the xbox guys are comparing the One to the 360 and are walking away saying to themselves that they need a head start for the next round with a powerful system and no gimmicks while being able to pump out a lot of them.

So next gen I'm betting MS launches first.
 
Remember we are almost a year into this console generation and MS gave back some power. So it depends on when the power diffrences really become apparent .
But they're already apparent. On PS3, launch games were under-par versus XB360, but that's because the machine was difficult to use. Under the hood it had basically just as much juice as 360. This gen, XB1 is offering the lower quality game at 70% resolution etc. and it hasn't got more under the hood that can be tapped to gain parity. I'd even say that when things move to compute based rendering, XB1 will fall behind even more. That's not a market concern because the market doesn't think that way, but they do know XB1 is producing worse quality versions of the games right now, and they do 'know' there's no 'supercomputer hidden power' that devs will be tapping in a year or two.

Quality of games will improve on XB1 into years 2/3 as techniques improve, but they'll also improve on PS4 and potentially show greater gains (+40% of more gfx == even more gfx). Then when XB1 starts to age and games become blurrier and choppier, PS4 should offer the smoother experience for longer.
 
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