Xbox 360 internal HD-DVD drive shocker?

Exactly, why not compete directly with the hi-end PS3? They could match it feature for feature, and maybe even kick up the HDD to something bigger than 60gb. That would kinda put Sony in a bind. You'd have the high-end 360 for the same price as PS3, with the same features (or better), and a core at $300 or less that can play all the games.

If they are able to match Sony's production capacity and cost, they can go this route for real. But Sony is still likely to have the cost and economy of scale advantage. Once it lowers its price... MS will have to follow suit with dependencies on lot's of external costs. This is playing to Sony's strength. I don't think fighting the hi-end as a primary battlefield is a safe route for MS.

Also if MS just have a 3rd SKU to compete with Sony, first the numbers won't be large enough to derail Sony's effort. Second, it may end up taking development and production resources away from MS too. The same resources that can be spent on lowering cost more aggressively rather than upping it to match hi-end needs, or the same money that can be thrown into XBL to differentiate further from free online gaming.

MS should continue to focus on core features and content to differentiate. Give it time to pan out and sink in. Marketshare is what they are after... so they just need to tweak according to market needs, rather than Sony's products.
 
If they are able to match Sony's production capacity and cost, they can go this route for real. But Sony is still likely to have the cost and economy of scale advantage. Once it lowers its price... MS will have to follow suit with dependencies on lot's of external costs. This is playing to Sony's strength. I don't think fighting the hi-end as a primary battlefield is a safe route for MS.

Also if MS just have a 3rd SKU to compete with Sony, first the numbers won't be large enough to derail Sony's effort. Second, it may end up taking development and production resources away from MS too. The same resources that can be spent on lowering cost more aggressively rather than upping it to match hi-end needs, or the same money that can be thrown into XBL to differentiate further from free online gaming.

MS should continue to focus on core features and content to differentiate. Give it time to pan out and sink in. Marketshare is what they are after... so they just need to tweak according to market needs, rather than Sony's products.

Why can't they do both? We knwo MS is aggressively cost reducing the core components of the 360, they've said as much. Creating a new hi-end AV SKU doesn't mean they have to stop cost reducing the core unit.

I realize Sony has a manufacturing cost advantage, but doesn't MS have a signifigant advantage in the fact they have already come down the cost curve after 12months of production? That could offest any advantage Sony has with manufacturing costs, especially if you consider both CELL and RSX are more expensive than the 360 equivalents (i think?.) There's also the possibility that HD-DVD is simply cheaper to manufacture than BR, though we don't have evidence of that.

As for derailing Sony's plans, well I'm not gonna go there, but I think the hi-end AV model looks pretty good on paper, and would certainly cause Sony some grief as their biggest trump card, technological superiority, would be somewhat nullified.
 
How is offering HDDVD and not Bluray on the console hypocritical? Right now there is NO choice just DVD... *shrug*
 
Why can't they do both? We knwo MS is aggressively cost reducing the core components of the 360, they've said as much. Creating a new hi-end AV SKU doesn't mean they have to stop cost reducing the core unit.

Because MS can't compete effectlvely with Sony on the hi-end route. Due to cost and economy of scale reason, Sony can be quicker to lower the cost (all else being equal). MS has an entry point now because it gives up features and go for the price differential right away. So they have to run as fast as they can before Sony comes down in price.

It's also about focus. If there is a shortage in component (e.g., say GPU), do MS pass the components to the mid-tier ones or the hi-end ones or split ? Can MS forecast well ? Bring down cost is also about volume. The hi-end may move slower than mid-tier, which will drag MS down in terms of getting market share. This is all assuming XB360 sells like hotcakes (e.g., if they get wonderful content early next year). For that matter, why not save the money for exclusive contents ?

I realize Sony has a manufacturing cost advantage, but doesn't MS have a signifigant advantage in the fact they have already come down the cost curve after 12months of production? That could offest any advantage Sony has with manufacturing costs, especially if you consider both CELL and RSX are more expensive than the 360 equivalents (i think?.) There's also the possibility that HD-DVD is simply cheaper to manufacture than BR, though we don't have evidence of that.

The 12 month cost reduction for MS is good but it's MS's 12 month. Sony is a hardware company and will be more efficient and effective as a general rule of thumb. Sony has not even started production yet and they say 65nm Cell may be ready early next year. Blu-ray and HD-DVD are constricted by Blue Laser diodes which Sony can manufacture in-house for the volume and better price. RSX should be easy to make since it's been out there for so long.

Hardware production is not about possibility. It's about certainty (because there are hard costs such as inventory, parts, shipping). How many people will buy the hi-end Xbox 360 AV model ? If it's few, why compete with Sony there ? (Sony is temporarily exempted from this problem because it is really delivering PS3 to its hardcore Playstation user base, hi-end or not). If it's a lot, how does MS intend to make enough of them to begin with ? And how much volume can it generate if some of the components are only used by the hi-end products (as opposed to Sony's selling PS3 to "everyone") ?

As for derailing Sony's plans, well I'm not gonna go there, but I think the hi-end AV model looks pretty good on paper, and would certainly cause Sony some grief as their biggest trump card, technological superiority, would be somewhat nullified.

Perhaps, but why cause them grief there where your odds are smaller. MS can definitely trump them in software right ?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Because MS can't compete effectlvely with Sony on the hi-end route. Due to cost and economy of scale reason, Sony can be quicker to lower the cost (all else being equal). MS has an entry point now because it gives up features and go for the price differential right away. So they have to run as fast as they can before Sony comes down in price.

It's also about focus. If there is a shortage in component (e.g., say GPU), do MS pass the components to the mid-tier ones or the hi-end ones or split ? Can MS forecast well ? Bring down cost is also about volume. The hi-end may move slower than mid-tier, which will drag MS down in terms of getting market share. This is all assuming XB360 sells like hotcakes (e.g., if they get wonderful content early next year). For that matter, why not save the money for exclusive contents ?

I don't understand your logic at all here, how would the presence of a hi end model slow the overall volume of units sold? It's simply another option for users to purchase, the premium and core will not stop existing. As for component shortages, why would there be any component shortages in 2007 at all? I don't see that bein an issue at all other than the HD-DVD drive itself, which would obviously only effect the availability of that model.

If anything it would increase the volume of units sold, as some purchasers would have a viable alternative to the top-end PS3, and would make that switch. I can't envision any scenario where the introduction of this model woukld cause them to lose sales.

The 12 month cost reduction for MS is good but it's MS's 12 month. Sony is a hardware company and will be more efficient and effective as a general rule of thumb. Sony has not even started production yet and they say 65nm Cell may be ready early next year. Blu-ray and HD-DVD are constricted by Blue Laser diodes which Sony can manufacture in-house for the volume and better price. RSX should be easy to make since it's been out there for so long.

Hardware production is not about possibility. It's about certainty (because there are hard costs such as inventory, parts, shipping). How many people will buy the hi-end Xbox 360 AV model ? If it's few, why compete with Sony there ? (Sony is temporarily exempted from this problem because it is really delivering PS3 to its hardcore Playstation user base, hi-end or not). If it's a lot, how does MS intend to make enough of them to begin with ? And how much volume can it generate if some of the components are only used by the hi-end products (as opposed to Sony's selling PS3 to "everyone") ?
They still have a signifigant headstart, and MS is on track to hit 65nm by early next year as well. Without knowledge of what he BOM is for 360 vs PS3, and without knowledge of how th e BOM of a HD-DVD drive compares to a BR drive, you cannot say that "MS can not compete with Sony" you simply don't know that, and are essentially assuming that because Sony is a 'hardware company' than none of the other factors matter, i.e. higher price of CELL, higher price of RSX, higher price of BR, 360 cost reduction after 12 months, none of that matters because Sony is a 'hardware' company...I don't really buy that logic.

Also, here's another factor to consider. MS can afford to take a greater loss on their hi-end model than Sony. Why? The Core and Premium will still make up the bulk of the sales, Sony is stuck eating these losses on 100% of the units they sell.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Because MS can't compete effectlvely with Sony on the hi-end route. Due to cost and economy of scale reason, Sony can be quicker to lower the cost (all else being equal). MS has an entry point now because it gives up features and go for the price differential right away. So they have to run as fast as they can before Sony comes down in price.

Remember though, Sony is not competing with MS on hardware, they are competing with IBM and ATI. Both of these ARE hardware companies and in terms of the respective CPUs, I believe IBM drives most of the process revisions for both models (cell and Xenon), so thats a dead heat imo. After that youre leaving it to Nvidia and ATI and i can't see an argument that puts that at anything more than a toss-up.
 
Remember though, Sony is not competing with MS on hardware, they are competing with IBM and ATI. Both of these ARE hardware companies and in terms of the respective CPUs, I believe IBM drives most of the process revisions for both models (cell and Xenon), so thats a dead heat imo. After that youre leaving it to Nvidia and ATI and i can't see an argument that puts that at anything more than a toss-up.

WHo are MS' foundries for Xenon? and for Xenos? Thats the competition...
 
So you're saying P Moore lied onstage? Seems you are just completely misinformed like usual. In any case, lets see a statement from R* saying they have never heard of this, I'm waiting...why do I have a feeling you won't respond ;)

That's right. You are misinformed, like usual.

You need to listen 1up network.. they even asked a Rockstar rep about it after MS conference. Funny, it was never said that the announcement had anything to do with GTA4. People just assume.
 
Remember though, Sony is not competing with MS on hardware, they are competing with IBM and ATI. Both of these ARE hardware companies and in terms of the respective CPUs, I believe IBM drives most of the process revisions for both models (cell and Xenon), so thats a dead heat imo. After that youre leaving it to Nvidia and ATI and i can't see an argument that puts that at anything more than a toss-up.

They arn't competing w/ ATI, AFAIK, ATI doesn't have production fabs anymore. More like TSMC, UMC (I think thats the correct abbreviation), and Chartered. Also, why do people still think that manufacturing parts yourself give you some sort of magical cost/efficieny advantage? There is a reason why manufacturers will buy parts from competitors, even if their company makes the same part.
 
WHo are MS' foundries for Xenon? and for Xenos? Thats the competition...

Yes you're right. Point stills stands though, its not "Microsoft-a software company" that they're competing with here. Don't IBM/ATI still have a hand in chip revisions though?

http://www.charteredsemi.com/media/corp/2006n/20060420_microsoft.asp

IChartered Semiconductor Manufacturing (Nasdaq: CHRT and SGX-ST: Chartered), one of the world's top dedicated semiconductor foundries, has signed an agreement with Microsoft for the manufacturing of CPU products-using 65-nanometer (nm) Silicon-on-Insulator (SOI) semiconductor technology -for Microsoft's Xbox 360 game consoles. Production is expected to begin in the first quarter of 2007, and will support the Xbox 360's growing demand and expanding market reach. The announcement follows Chartered's successful manufacturing of 90nm SOI CPU products for the Xbox 360 console's launch, through an agreement with IBM.

http://us.codejunkies.com/news_reviews.asp?c=GB&cr=&cs=&r=1&l=&p=8&i=8738&s=7

The ATI-designed graphics part for the Xbox 360 will be built by Taiwanese Semiconductor Manufacturing (TSMC), with the firm set to use its cutting edge 90 nanometre process to deliver millions of the chips by the end of the year.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
That's right. You are misinformed, like usual.

You need to listen 1up network.. they even asked a Rockstar rep about it after MS conference. Funny, it was never said that the announcement had anything to do with GTA4. People just assume.

Well, while you dig up that podcast and transcribe it so we know what the hell you're talking about, I'll point you to Microsoft's official press release:
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/p...eftAutoPR.mspx

Microsoft and Rockstar Games are proud to announce a strategic alliance to provide exclusive episodic content for Xbox Live®
...

The agreement to distribute exclusive Rockstar Games content via Xbox Live highlights the publishing community’s growing desire to feed gamers’ insatiable appetite for downloading new high-definition experiences and playing online.
Seems like I'm not the one who is completely misinformed here. But by all means, lets hear what this 'rep' said on your unnnamed podcast...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
That's right. You are misinformed, like usual.

You need to listen 1up network.. they even asked a Rockstar rep about it after MS conference. Funny, it was never said that the announcement had anything to do with GTA4. People just assume.

Ok, give us a link to where Rockstar denies the exclusive episodic content. Here is 1up link that says otherwise.
 
I can see it now, in the future, 360 games (at least the first party one) will be in HD-DVD format. Gamers will have to go out and buy a "new" 360 if they want to play future games:mrgreen:

Halo 3 in HD-DVD format!:mrgreen:

Now I don't think MS would do something like that, but hey, you never know:mrgreen:
 
Exactly, why not compete directly with the hi-end PS3? They could match it feature for feature, and maybe even kick up the HDD to something bigger than 60gb. That would kinda put Sony in a bind. You'd have the high-end 360 for the same price as PS3, with the same features (or better), and a core at $300 or less that can play all the games.

I'm sorry but MS just cant match a 599$ ps3 feature by feature

first of all we dont know every future of the media capabilities

nomatter what drive you put in the xbox, it will ALWAYS be stuck with DVD size for GAMES.
they betterm trow in a free toshiba standalone hddvd player in 2008 with every xbox sold.
and devs should always make sure there game is playable on a harddiskless Corepack also.
 
That's right. You are misinformed, like usual.

You need to listen 1up network.. they even asked a Rockstar rep about it after MS conference. Funny, it was never said that the announcement had anything to do with GTA4. People just assume.

Yeah, people just assume.

However, if you look at the official GTA4 press release from Take 2.....

Separately, Microsoft and Rockstar Games are proud to announce a strategic alliance to provide exclusive episodic content for Xbox Live®, giving the community ever-expanding gameplay experiences that simply aren't possible on other consoles

http://ir.take2games.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=195754

You would see that exclusive episodic content is officially confirmed by Take2 who owns Rockstar.
 
I don't understand your logic at all here, how would the presence of a hi end model slow the overall volume of units sold? It's simply another option for users to purchase, the premium and core will not stop existing. As for component shortages, why would there be any component shortages in 2007 at all? I don't see that bein an issue at all other than the HD-DVD drive itself, which would obviously only effect the availability of that model.

It is opportunity cost.

The premise of Xbox 360's approach is that by reaching the USD299 sweet spot (Talking about the premium model here), MS can pull away from Sony in terms of sales. By doing an additional hi-end model, it slows MS in the following way:

* For every dollar spent on the existing premium model, MS can reach that goal by lower its cost further/faster, or improving its content attractiveness. The multiplier effect is an increase in overall premium package sales. Now for every dollar taken away from this and invested into hi-end model, MS will slow the premium momentum and at the same time, they still have to fight this hi-end mess (e.g., Will consumers just buy a standalone brandname HD-DVD players instead of the combined hi-end model ? How does the hi-end compete with PS3 head-on ? How many hi-end vs existing units do MS's partners stock on their shelves ? Do MS's existing manufacturing partner need to change their process to accommodate hi-end models ? How many places do the parts need to go now ? etc.

* MS has to invest additional resources developing and marketing another slower moving model (How does it recover these cost ? Will these hi-end model justify for the investments ?). Instead of making it a simple decision for people to buy a Xbox 360, it may be more complicated now. There will be people who decide to wait and save up for the more expensive model (instead of just buying the existing ones at lower price). But once they save up, they can also consider buying a PS3 now. MS opens this up by literally endorsing/acknowledging the importance of HD (making people feel that the hi-end model and PS3 is the real thing). When Steve Jobs returned to Apple, he streamlined Apple's 10-15 models into just a minimal 4 (pro desktop, pro laptop, home desktop and home laptop) to consolidate the sales and production, plus simplify the buying process. I don't think consoles are complicated enough to deserve that split into 3 models yet. MS will have to look at their marketing data to decide.

* As for component shortage... in MS's case, it may be wistful thinking in the mean time.
It depends on MS's content pipeline and production forecast, if they can reach the 299 price point earlier, then they should sell better. The contention in parts I mentioned is a console lifecycle thing. It is not fixed to year 2007 by any means (except for HD-DVD parts).

If anything it would increase the volume of units sold, as some purchasers would have a viable alternative to the top-end PS3, and would make that switch. I can't envision any scenario where the introduction of this model woukld cause them to lose sales.

See above.

They still have a signifigant headstart, and MS is on track to hit 65nm by early next year as well. Without knowledge of what he BOM is for 360 vs PS3, and without knowledge of how th e BOM of a HD-DVD drive compares to a BR drive, you cannot say that "MS can not compete with Sony" you simply don't know that, and are essentially assuming that because Sony is a 'hardware company' than none of the other factors matter, i.e. higher price of CELL, higher price of RSX, higher price of BR, 360 cost reduction after 12 months, none of that matters because Sony is a 'hardware' company...I don't really buy that logic.

Sure but Sony can source many parts internally, which will shave the middlemen cost and some overhead away. You were saying you want to compete with Sony on the hi-end as well. So the hi-end will need to match PS3 feature for feature. BOM cost-wise, it's going to be worse than Sony, especially without the volume for say 60Gb HDD and blue ray diodes.

Also, here's another factor to consider. MS can afford to take a greater loss on their hi-end model than Sony. Why? The Core and Premium will still make up the bulk of the sales, Sony is stuck eating these losses on 100% of the units they sell.

Yes, this is something I already considered. Like I said, if the volume for hi-end is not there, it's just a waste of MS's time and resources. And if the volume is large, MS will risk losing even more money. Why not spend the money on XBL and software ? Sony has ways to recover from Blu-ray regardless of whether MS lose more/less money on HD-DVD.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Maybe this is just me, but I cannot see, from where can MS get enough blue diodes for such device in next 6-9 months. Unless it is ready to pay much higher price than dedicated electronics manufacturers are - and that quite probably drives BOM of HDDVD model even higher than PSIII.
MS can manage external HDDVD, which does not sell in sizeable quantities, or internal AV 360, if it remains high/end niche product. But in latter case I do not see the point of such device.
 
Back
Top