Xbox 360 internal HD-DVD drive shocker?

[expletive]

As I said early, the choice aspect was choice between formats. MS originally were saying they weren't going to get involved. They are not giving XB360 owners the choice of which format to run on their XB360. What if you want BRD HD movies and Halo3? Why won't MS release a $300 BRD addon as well as a $300 HDDVD addon? Because they don't want you to have that choice. They want you to side with HDDVD.

I dont recall them ever saying they want you to have a choice between BR or HD-DVD. Ever since they joined the HD-DVD consortium, the party line is (and has been) that "Games are games and HD movies are HD movies, you should not be forced to pay a premium for functionality you dont want." I dont see how one SKU with an internal HD-DVD drive compromises that.

Sure they could eventually back off that (and I could see how they could spin it as well) but at the moment they dont appear to have deviated.

 

[dobwal]

Even if MS allowed HDDVD only games the chance of seeing a HDDVD game would be slim

MS doesn't restrict the use of the DVD format on Windows, yet how many PC games have actually been released only on a DVD format?

You actually expect any developer or publisher to produce a game greater than the size of a DL DVD, restrict it to HDDVD and thereby decreasing their consumer base by an order of a magnitude (this is being optimistic in terms of HDDVD Xbox360's possible install base).

The financial potential for a HDDVD only game is so low that it would be suicide for any small company and for any large company would result in quite a few firings.

 

[scooby_dooby]

As I said early, the choice aspect was choice between formats. MS originally were saying they weren't going to get involved. They are not giving XB360 owners the choice of which format to run on their XB360. What if you want BRD HD movies and Halo3? Why won't MS release a $300 BRD addon as well as a $300 HDDVD addon? Because they don't want you to have that choice. They want you to side with HDDVD.

I agree it hypocritical to preach choice, and then not offer a BR add-on, but the choice MS has always claimed to give, was the choice to game on a next-gen system at entry level prices.

 

[scooby_dooby]

More is not necessarily better, but it cant hurt. If in a year GTA IV arrives and is "better/more seamless" on PS3 and the developers accord it to BluRays capacity then what will you say?

I would say that it looks like Sony's gamble is paying off.

As a counterpoint, what if 3 years from now, DVD is still doing just fine and there is no noticeable difference in 99% of the games? Then I'll say that MS's decision to keep DVD was clearly the correct one since it enabled them to undercut the price of PS3 by $200 which signifigantly increased their install base.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I agree it hypocritical to preach choice, and then not offer a BR add-on, but the choice MS has always claimed to give, was the choice to game on a next-gen system at entry level prices.

I'm looking for quotes at the mo' to see if I remember rightly. At the moment I've only come across this one that's related

However, despite the obvious preference for HD-DVD, it seems Microsoft isn't willing to completely tie its fate to the format just yet. During CES 2006, Microsoft's Xbox corporate VP of worldwide marketing and publishing Peter Moore told Japanese site ITmedia that a Blu-ray Xbox 360 peripheral could appear for the system if the need arises. Moore admitted that Microsoft isn't sure of the next-generation format war's outcome, with the worst-case scenario being a repeat of the Beta vs. VHS war of the '80s.
However, he suggested that whatever the outcome of the HD-DVD/Blu-ray war, the Xbox 360 can adopt the dominant format since its uses an external drive. He also suggested that it's a weak point for PlayStation 3, saying Sony's system is stuck with Blu-ray.

http://uk.gamespot.com/pages/news/story.php?sid=6142137

This quote seems to point to what I remember.

Meanwhile, on the thorny issue of HD-DVD versus Blu-Ray, Allard said, "It's going to be interesting to see how and if a high def format for movies plays out," but later admitted, "We prefer HD-DVD to Blu-Ray in terms of the flexibility it offers to different applications as well as the infrastructure costs to the market."

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/news.php?aid=10972

That's not the exact bit I think I remember, but the link to full Major Nelson interview doesn't work (page deleted?)
Well, here's that interview from a Google cache

Q: What is your opinion on HD-DVD? A: it's going to be interesting to see how and if a high def format for movies plays out. when we designed the the initial xbox many people asked if sacd or dvd audio would be the successor to the cd format for music. as everyone knows the real successor was mp3 and digital distribution with things like napster ipod and msn music. while there is a lot of talk about this in the industry it will be interesting to see what the exact future of this is for movies. of course i think there will be a need for higher capacity optical media for storage applications. we prefer hd-dvd to blu-ray in terms of the flexibility it offers to different applications as well as the infrastructure costs to the market. J Allard (Expert):

Here's something similar from Scott Henson, director of Game Technology Group

But what if Sony's BluRay format wins the next-gen movie war? Could we still see a BRD add-on for Xbox 360, or maybe even a combo drive? Henson pipes up, "I wanna make sure everyone understands this! The system itself is architected so that we can continue to add components over time. Could we do that kind of stuff technically? Yeah. But have we announced anything, no - high definition movie formats is going to be a really interesting thing to watch objectively - and we'll be ready to adapt to what consumers want." He also clarified, just for our own satisfaction, that "HD-DVD the accessory is for movie playback only" - no gamers will be alienated by Microsoft putting games on HD-DVD.

http://bink.nu/Article6514.bink

As far as I can see, along with how I've always perceived MS's stance, they want HDDVD to win but have been coy about backing it completely, saying they'd be open to whatever standard materialises. This internal HDDVD (still a rumour mind!) would end that stance. And I still feel there was a quote from way back when an MS exec said they didn't want to get involved in the HD movie format war, but may be wrong.

 

[expletive]

As far as I can see, along with how I've always perceived MS's stance, they want HDDVD to win but have been coy about backing it completely, saying they'd be open to whatever standard materialises. This internal HDDVD (still a rumour mind!) would end that stance. And I still feel there was a quote from way back when an MS exec said they didn't want to get involved in the HD movie format war, but may be wrong.

I still disagree. Until they offer 360's ONLY with HD-DVD drives, they have not ended that stance. I dont see how a single HD-DVD SKU prevents them from releasing a BR add-on or built-in unit in the future. At its core, the 360 platform is still about games on DVD. Additional SKUs or add-ons are just that, options.

EDIT:Kudos on digging up all that info though!

 

[function]

There's nothing hypocritical about saying you don't want to force "HD media" on your console users, then offering them the choice of playing a certain type of HD disk using a peripheral or more expensive, enhanced, none Core system. They let you choose whether you want to pay extra for the drive, they never indicated they would provide a choice of 'HD' drive format (and I feel they're under absolutely no obligation to do so).

By next summer, there will be 15 million or so "standard" DVD 360s going about, and the system will be ready to hit truly mass market prices at around $200. HD-DVD equipped 360s will only ever account for a small proportion of units.

If someone is brave enough to want to publish a HD-DVD only game, good luck.

 

[ZiFF]

How about a downgraded DVD-version of GTA or Halo 3 vs HD-DVD-version?

That would start a shitstorm.

 

[expletive]

How about a downgraded DVD-version of GTA or Halo 3 vs HD-DVD-version?

That would start a shitstorm.

Well, GTA is out of MS' control but for Halo there is no way they'll do that. The worst i can see is having a seperate Single and Multiplay disc and maybe HD-DVD all-in-one, they won't abandon the DVD format so early in the lifecycle.

 

[scooby_dooby]

How about a downgraded DVD-version of GTA or Halo 3 vs HD-DVD-version?

That would start a shitstorm.

That will never happen, the interestign question is whether the PS3 version will be any better at all than the XBOX due to Bluray. It's X360 that has secured exclusive additonal content for GTA so the situation could be the reverse. I think the 2 version will be end up being nearly identical out of the box, but 360 has some sort of extra content that will be available for download.

 

[patsu]

In general, this is a good marketing move to keep up with time (or Xbox 360 will risk being seen as dated as HD take up adoption in US). I don't think there'll be changes to the game format. I see this as a pure MS internal adjustment (regardless of what Sony does).

If as a third SKU, it will probably not change the BR vs HD-DVD situation. Since they keep up the pressure, consumers will likely get cheap and good Blu-ray players too
So at the end of the day, it benefits the consumers and actually reinforce the perception that HD is coming and is important. Good news for everyone in HD.

The work is cut out for Sony since day 1 (or rather they cut out the work themselvse). Fix any Blu-ray quality issues (if any) and ramp up the production asap.

 

[scooby_dooby]

As far as I can see, along with how I've always perceived MS's stance, they want HDDVD to win but have been coy about backing it completely, saying they'd be open to whatever standard materialises. This internal HDDVD (still a rumour mind!) would end that stance. And I still feel there was a quote from way back when an MS exec said they didn't want to get involved in the HD movie format war, but may be wrong.

Yes an internal HD-DVD drive would put them firmly in that boat, which is why I think this rumour is bunk.

Why would MS commit to HD-DVD when the format war is still in it's infancy? Why should they gamble to such a degree? They have nothing to gain by it.

I think an internal HD drive is inevitable, but not right now. It seems much more prudent to use an add-on and wait for the dominant format to emerge, and THEN start bundling it internally whichever format it turns out to be.

Do you think MS really wants to be stuck with 30million BETA machines? There's no way we see a HD-DVD internal drive in 07, if we do, MS has made a huge mistake imo. Unless it's some sort of hi-end, AV targeted $600 model, that I guess could work as it would only represent a small portion of the install base going forward....but replacing the premium? no way.

Actually, for the sake of argument, lets assume MS releases a $600 AV version with HD-DVD included in 07 with identical functionality to the hi-end PS3. How would that affect the market? What if they drop the Premium and Core prices by $50 at the same time?
Core: $250
Premium: $350
HD-DVD Model: $600

Ya know...that doesn't look half bad...

 

[patsu]

I think an internal HD drive is inevitable, but not right now. It seems much more prudent to use an add-on and wait for the dominant format to emerge, and THEN start bundling it internally whichever format it turns out to be.

Well, they have to start early to design a good product. It's probably part of the Xbox 360 motherboard revision process too. As for whether we will see this earlier or later, they will have to watch the console sales numbers and the HD player sales number to decide.

Actually, for the sake of argument, lets assume MS releases a $600 AV version with HD-DVD included in 07 with identical functionality to the hi-end PS3. How would that affect the market? What if they drop the Premium and Core prices by $50 at the same time?
Core: $250
Premium: $350
HD-DVD Model: $600

The issue is: By that time, how much does a standalone HDDVD player cost ? Unlike PS3, Xbox 360 does not need HDDVD to play games. So the decision can be totally separate (I'm assuming Xbox 360 AV will also add a HDMI port).
MS will likely beef up Xbox 360's media software capability and further improve integration with PC + XBox Live, etc. etc. to differentiate.

At USD 600 it will have to compete with PS3, which also includes built-in WiFi (for Playstation Network's music and movie download, and free online games ?) and other minor stuff. Assuming Blu-ray and HD-DVD plays equally well, MS may have to shoot for lower than 600 using its current "cheaper is better" approach.

For gamers, it's still the games that drive Xbox 360 and PS3 sales. So I think they are less affected.

 

[ZiFF]

That will never happen, the interestign question is whether the PS3 version will be any better at all than the XBOX due to Bluray. It's X360 that has secured exclusive additonal content for GTA so the situation could be the reverse. I think the 2 version will be end up being nearly identical out of the box, but 360 has some sort of extra content that will be available for download.

You mean that GTA exclusive content which even Rockstar had not heard of?

 

[rabidrabbit]

You mean that GTA exclusive content which even Rockstar had not heard of?

It's the same as the PES and FIFA one year exclusivities on xbox360

Was it really exclusive downloadable content, or just extra downloadable content?
There's a difference.
If it was just "extra" that could as well mean that the content that'll be on the PS3 Blu-ray disc, like localised text, some radio channels and other ingame content that's there basically just for fun and eye/ear candy would not all be on the xbox360 DVD because of space restrictions.
Instead they'd be downloadable to the HDD.
You know, the choice. You would not be forced all that content on the game disc, but the user would be able to choose what radio channels he wants to download

 

[scooby_dooby]

You mean that GTA exclusive content which even Rockstar had not heard of?

So you're saying P Moore lied onstage? Seems you are just completely misinformed like usual. In any case, lets see a statement from R* saying they have never heard of this, I'm waiting...why do I have a feeling you won't respond

 

[DuckThor Evil]

If it was just "extra" that could as well mean that the content that'll be on the PS3 Blu-ray disc, like localised text, some radio channels and other ingame content that's there basically just for fun and eye/ear candy would not all be on the xbox360 DVD because of space restrictions.
Instead they'd be downloadable to the HDD.
You know, the choice. You would not be forced all that content on the game disc, but the user would be able to choose what radio channels he wants to download

Yes and maybe the PS3-version will cost 50% more for that nice extra, I'm sure those channels would be worth it, if that's the road you want to go...

 

[scooby_dooby]

Was it really exclusive downloadable content, or just extra downloadable content?

It's exclusive episodic content, which means essentially extra missions/storyline's that can be downloaded.

Separately, Microsoft and Rockstar Games are proud to announce a strategic alliance to provide exclusive episodic content for Xbox Live®, giving the community ever-expanding gameplay experiences that simply aren’t possible on other consoles.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2006/may06/05-09GrandTheftAutoPR.mspx

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yes an internal HD-DVD drive would put them firmly in that boat, which is why I think this rumour is bunk.

Why would MS commit to HD-DVD when the format war is still in it's infancy? Why should they gamble to such a degree? They have nothing to gain by it.

That's always been my view. But I guess there's two reasons to consider this :

1. To spite Sony. BRD success adds worth to PS3 and helps with presencein the console space and that living room position.
2. MS do get license fees for HDDVD that they don't get for BRD, and there's the question of AACS for BRD which is uncertain AFAIK, which could have a negative impact of MS's platform for content.

I can see that they may be reconsidering format neutrality more strongly, and trying to give HDDVD a helping hand without being too committal. I can see it going either way.

BTW : about the dual-format 3 layer discs, they sound kinda useless to me. You can either have 9 GB of DVD movie and 15 GB of HDDVD, too small for HD movies, or HD movies and low-quality DVD. For games, single layer wouldn't buy you much more storage. If I were in charge, I'd only allow HDDVD games for multi-DVD titles, just to save a disc swap. As has been mentioned, there's issues about read speeds and access times there though. The internal HDDVD drive doesn't make sense to me at this time. 2008, maybe, when consoles and drives are cheaper and drives are faster.

 

[scooby_dooby]

At USD 600 it will have to compete with PS3, which also includes built-in WiFi (for Playstation Network's music and movie download, and free online games ?) and other minor stuff. Assuming Blu-ray and HD-DVD plays equally well, MS may have to shoot for lower than 600 using its current "cheaper is better" approach.

Exactly, why not compete directly with the hi-end PS3? They could match it feature for feature, and maybe even kick up the HDD to something bigger than 60gb. That would kinda put Sony in a bind. You'd have the high-end 360 for the same price as PS3, with the same features (or better), and a core at $300 or less that can play all the games.