why the xbox720 should be using HD-DVD

[NathansFortune]

Fair enough, it means little though. I can claim to be any person on any website, doesn't make it true and especially doesn't mean I'm more of an insider or expert.

Ahh, but if you were to sign up and send me a PM over there I would reply and confirm... You are free to do that if you wish.

I think 20 layer is what their fundamental optical disc technology can realistically provide IF the need is there. Obviously it will cost more than QL but that's not really the point. The point is if MS adopts VMD for their 3rd gen console they will have the ability to use the same format for their 4th gen console as well just by scaling the number of layers.

Blu-ray has the fundamentals to go up to 8 layers (and has been demonstrated to do it), but no one seriously thinks it is going to be used. Once you get beyond DL the tolerances are too low for satisfactory disc replication. Anyhow, I'll ask around for VMD yields, though I'm not sure which replicators have lines or if it is all done in-house at NME.

QL blue laser VMD doesn't exist because there isn't a need for it right now. The current red laser versiion is doing fine at 24GB for HD movies. There is no point in upgrading the lines to blue laser when the demand for it isn't there...yet.

Well, it should be put into the vapourware column until it is demonstrated as a working product. QL blue-laser is a very difficult prospect, for reference HD DVD30/DVD9 DL/DS discs had a yield below 70% (I suppose I can talk about it now that it is a dead format!). VMD and DVD are essentially the same tech, all NME claim is that they have got the manufacturing process down so well that they can do QL DVD without having too high a coaster rate (which is something I don't believe given the distinct lack on independent replicators doing VMD).

True but I don't see how volume can't be ramped up between now and the time the next Xbox launches. We're talking several years. Also in the event that NME's drive contractor can't handle the volume, they'd simply license the technology out to other drive manufacturers.

Who would jump at the chance to manufacture a drive that will be used in 30-60m consoles over 5-7 years and require massive infrastructure investment that I'm guessing MS would have to pay for and write-off. No my good man, The volume would have to come from within MS or NME, external drive manufacturers wouldn't be interested in a relatively low volume product like a games console. Why do you think UMD is still so expensive?

 

[eastmen]

Do i come across as someone that will sit idle on a inferior format?

My Laserdisc collection never got big, but i have 30-40 discs, i entered that world a bit to late, before that it was VHS with HiFi sound.

Laserdiscs got replaced by the 700 or DVD´s, they are all collecting duct now, except for the rare Music DVD of which many was filmed on Video anyway.

If there is a UHD format i will be there again, my life is to short for compromises on stuff like that, and even though i am by far not Rick James rich i have no trouble paying for the best experience when i sit down and spend 2 hours with a movie.

So it seem to me that you'd be more into VOD because its a format that is constantly improving itself and upgrading itself while bluray is by and large a set format for movie playback. Sure discs may go up to 400 gigs at some point but the original players wont play it and i doubt they would fragment a user base like that.


Personaly I buy blurays , dvds and i'm a netflix subscriber. I don't really care though if an xbox next doesn't support bluray. I already own a bluray player and in the future as they drop in price i may own more. If its an option of a better faster format for loading games or a loud noisy and perhaps slower bluray drive with bluray playback , i'd choose the faster format


There are tens of millions and growing fans that enjoy the wii and it has no movie playbakc and the ds far outsells the psp and barely has any video playback methods if any.


I still believe in fast flash memory for a future console. It may cost al ittle more but i'd gladly pay it. The flash ram i pointed out earlier has 103MB/s transfer rates up to 300MB/s transfer rates. Thati s something i'd love to see in a console

 

[archie4oz]

I'm not sure if I'm amazed or dismayed that this thread is still going on.

HD-DVD was out earlier than Blu-Ray

You should clarify BD-ROM. BD-RE was out back when HD-DVD was still called AOD.

 

[NathansFortune]

I'm not sure if I'm amazed or dismayed that this thread is still going on.



You should clarify BD-ROM. BD-RE was out back when HD-DVD was still called AOD.

Had a caddy and is not compatible with today's players. While the disc inside may be the same without the hardcoat, they are two incompatible formats with the same name.

Blu-ray only became a realistic possibility as a home-use format once the two-spin hard coat was developed.

 

[DrJay24]

So it seem to me that you'd be more into VOD because its a format that is constantly improving itself and upgrading itself while bluray is by and large a set format for movie playback.

And yet VOD is so far from BD's quality it can be "improving" for years and never get close. We are at 20-25Mbps 1080P with BD and what 5Mbps 720P with the best VOD?

BD may not be improving, but it doesn't need to.

 

[archie4oz]

Did you actually use them? I have (we've got a BDZ-S77 here at work) and we've got discs recorded with it that are usable on newer gear (e.g. popping discs into the PS3)...

 

[RudeCurve]

Blu-ray has the fundamentals to go up to 8 layers (and has been demonstrated to do it), but no one seriously thinks it is going to be used. Once you get beyond DL the tolerances are too low for satisfactory disc replication. Anyhow, I'll ask around for VMD yields, though I'm not sure which replicators have lines or if it is all done in-house at NME.

I think there are a few reasons why we don't see BD with more than two layers out in the market, but the biggest one is Backwards Compatibility. While BD has the issue of BC to deal with, VMD for a game console does not. For example if they were to release 4 layer BD there's the possibility that some of the current players/drives already out there wouldn't be able to read the new discs. Imagine the backlash of 20 million PS3 owners not being able to use 4 layer BD.

Who would jump at the chance to manufacture a drive that will be used in 30-60m consoles over 5-7 years and require massive infrastructure investment that I'm guessing MS would have to pay for and write-off. No my good man, The volume would have to come from within MS or NME, external drive manufacturers wouldn't be interested in a relatively low volume product like a games console. Why do you think UMD is still so expensive?

The UMD drive can't be comparred to a VMD drive. Nothing in a UMD drive can be reused/shared with a DVD drive or vice versa. The UMD drive is a 100% made from scratch component, Even the discs are special made.

VMD drives OTOH are basically DVD drives with special optics and read electronics. They can read CDs and DVDs too. Basically any manufacturer that can make a DVD drive can make a VMD drive with little modification. I' wouldn't be shocked to find out that the VMD players out in the market are using modified DVD drives made by a DVD drive OEM.

Did you actually use them? I have (we've got a BDZ-S77 here at work) and we've got discs recorded with it that are usable on newer gear (e.g. popping discs into the PS3)...

It's been known that compatibility of the earlier BD discs are iffy at best. Record a BD on a Panasonic unit and it will play on a Panasonic, on another brand BD player good luck! There was no standard in place.

 

[NathansFortune]

Did you actually use them? I have (we've got a BDZ-S77 here at work) and we've got discs recorded with it that are usable on newer gear (e.g. popping discs into the PS3)...

The discs in the caddies?

How does that even fit in the PS3 drive?!?

 

[RudeCurve]

The discs in the caddies?

How does that even fit in the PS3 drive?!?

Take it out of the caddie and handle it VERY carefully.

 

[NathansFortune]

I think there are a few reasons why we don't see BD with more than two layers out in the market, but the biggest one is Backwards Compatibility. While BD has the issue of BC to deal with, VMD for a game console does not. For example if they were to release 4 layer BD there's the possibility that some of the current players/drives already out there wouldn't be able to read the new discs. Imagine the backlash of 20 million PS3 owners not being able to use 4 layer BD.

Nope, not to do with compatibility. PS3 drives are capable without any hardware modifications, I have seen one read a 100GB QL disc by Hitachi. Manufacturing tolerances are too extreme it makes the discs cost too much to produce (from < $1 for BD50, to > $10 each on test line).

The UMD drive can't be comparred to a VMD drive. Nothing in a UMD drive can be reused/shared with a DVD drive or vice versa. The UMD drive is a 100% made from scratch component, Even the discs are special made.

VMD drives OTOH are basically DVD drives with special optics and read electronics. They can read CDs and DVDs too. Basically any manufacturer that can make a DVD drive can make a VMD drive with little modification. I' wouldn't be shocked to find out that the VMD players out in the market are using drives made by a DVD drive OEM.

It is a fair comparison because the drives have to be made specially and the diodes/optics need to be made to very specific tolerances (i.e. the $25 junk DVD players don't have compatible components). The only part that could be re-used is the tray as the discs are 12cm.

So let's recap, new production lines for the discs, new production lines for the drives, new optics, new lasers, but you can buy in the housing and trays from somewhere else.

 

[RudeCurve]

Nope, not to do with compatibility. PS3 drives are capable without any hardware modifications, I have seen one read a 100GB QL disc by Hitachi. Manufacturing tolerances are too extreme it makes the discs cost too much to produce (from < $1 for BD50, to > $10 each on test line).

That is quite expensive. Anyway even if the PS3 could read a QL BD that doesn't mean every BD player can.

It is a fair comparison because the drives have to be made specially and the diodes/optics need to be made to very specific tolerances (i.e. the $25 junk DVD players don't have compatible components). The only part that could be re-used is the tray as the discs are 12cm.

From what i could tell the things that need to be changed in a DVD drive to be able to read a VMD is the OPU and read electronics. Everything else is reuseable, that includes chassis, motor, servo, clamp mechanism, interface etc etc. The HD DVD drive for X360 is being sold at retail for $40 and it's using the more expensive blue laser diode. A VMD drive likely cost around $10 to make.

So let's recap, new production lines for the discs, new production lines for the drives, new optics, new lasers, but you can buy in the housing and trays from somewhere else.

You don't need new production lines for the discs. There are already discs being sold so obviously somebody are pressing them. You don't need new productiion lines for the drives as drives are already being made as there are already players being sold. Not sure if new lasers are needed.

 

[NathansFortune]

That is quite expensive. Anyway even if the PS3 could read a QL BD that doesn't mean every BD player can.

I'm not sure. I don't think so though.

From what i could tell the things that need to be changed in a DVD drive to be able to read a VMD is the OPU and read electronics. Everything else is reuseable, that includes chassis, motor, servo, clamp mechanism, interface etc etc. The HD DVD drive for X360 is being sold at retail for $40 and it's using the more expensive blue laser diode. A VMD drive likely cost around $10 to make.

Sold at below cost. A BD-ROM drive costs $68 to make including labour. HD DVD-ROM drives were $74 to produce when HD DVD went down. VMD I don't know, but I would guess somewhere in between DVD and HD DVD. The re-usable stuff (the plastic) makes up the lowest cost, the optics and the laser are the highest cost. Currently DVD optics use plastic a plastic lens and a $2 laser. BD uses a $34 laser and a precision glass lens. HD DVD doesn't require the expensive lens, hence the lower cost. VMD would require the expensive lens, but obviously the expensive blue/violet laser isn't required

You don't need new production lines for the discs. There are already discs being sold so obviously somebody are pressing them. You don't need new productiion lines for the drives as drives are already being made as there are already players being sold. Not sure if new lasers are needed.

Well currently VMD sells less than HD DVD sold in it's first ever month (i.e. an untrackable amount) if Xbox 3 were to use VMD the capability to produce over 20m discs a month would be required, the capacity isn't there and someone would have to stump up the cash for new lines. Same goes for the drives.

New lasers are required, they need to be more powerful, the only way to read > DL is by using PRML, which necessitates a more powerful laser. Not as expensive as a blue/violet laser used for BD, but more expensive than what the Chinese $25 DVD player uses.

 

[Crossbar]

Very informative discussion. Keep up the good job guys. :smile:

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think there are a few reasons why we don't see BD with more than two layers out in the market, but the biggest one is Backwards Compatibility. While BD has the issue of BC to deal with, VMD for a game console does not. For example if they were to release 4 layer BD there's the possibility that some of the current players/drives already out there wouldn't be able to read the new discs. Imagine the backlash of 20 million PS3 owners not being able to use 4 layer BD.

No backlash whatsoever, if the QL BRD discs are for PS4 games only . A new generation of console can go with a new disk format, and a new, improved BRD drive is just as acceptible in that regard as a VMD drive. Whihc still say anything about the issues of reading those deeping layers, nor if devs are going to spend a fortune on creating more than 50 GBs of content next-gen.

 

[RudeCurve]

No backlash whatsoever, if the QL BRD discs are for PS4 games only .

Actually if they were to release QL BD for games only they wouldn't even have to wait for PS4 as all PS3s can read QL BD.

Whihc still say anything about the issues of reading those deeping layers, nor if devs are going to spend a fortune on creating more than 50 GBs of content next-gen.

I actually think nextgen some games will be using a lot of space for things like huge MegaTextures.

 

[NathansFortune]

No backlash whatsoever, if the QL BRD discs are for PS4 games only . A new generation of console can go with a new disk format, and a new, improved BRD drive is just as acceptible in that regard as a VMD drive. Whihc still say anything about the issues of reading those deeping layers, nor if devs are going to spend a fortune on creating more than 50 GBs of content next-gen.

PS3 can read Hitachi's QL BD100, and a SL BD50, I've seen it do it in person. I asked specifically whether the PS3 had been modified, they said no hardware modifications, just software (I didn't understand, but I took their word for it).

 

[Crossbar]

PS3 can read Hitachi's QL BD100, and a SL BD50, I've seen it do it in person. I asked specifically whether the PS3 had been modified, they said no hardware modifications, just software (I didn't understand, but I took their word for it).

That is great news. I was thinking for myself when I read that hybrid game/movie disks are to come to the PS3 that it might compromise the content of the game or the quality of the movie in some ways to fit within a 50 GB disk depending on their sizes.

It may initially do that, but obviously the BD drive of the PS3 will be able to read larger disks whenever they hit the market.

 

[Quaz51]

Nope, not to do with compatibility. PS3 drives are capable without any hardware modifications, I have seen one read a 100GB QL disc by Hitachi.

read 100GB or just the first 50GB of this disc? (first two layer)
i really doubt you can read quad layer just with software update?

 

[NathansFortune]

read 100GB or just the first 50GB of this disc? (first two layer)
i really doubt you can read quad layer just with software update?

It was able to read the whole disc. Hence my confusion. The rep said there were no hardware modifications just a normal off the shelf PS3 and their QL disc.



It was a behind closed doors event, invite only and the press were not invited. They could be demoing it at this year's IFA to the public though...

 

[grandmaster]

The software update is presumably a firmware update to the BD drive. I believe that the firmware update is also included in the overall system firmware updates - another reason why PS3 remains secure. Even if you could re-sign and flash the firmware, you'd never be able to update your PS3 again.