why the xbox720 should be using HD-DVD

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how can BD not be a big player? It seems pretty obvious to me that the studios want BD to be the only way you can buy a 1080p full HD movie with all the bells and whistles. In fact, you can't even buy an HD movie from any of the VOD vendors, and I don't see the studios ever letting that happen as long as BD is around.

Big player when it comes to movies in General, not for people picking one console over another.

It's the same place though where we're viewing it as BD vs its alternatives. Consumers don't have to have a viable alternative for them not to flock to BD, know what I'm sayin? Some of BD adoption will be by default, and some will be by consumers pursuing the best A/V distribution option in terms of quality, but neither of these drivers need combine to a dominant percentage when all is said and done. (And these percentages I don't like associating too much weighting to, because really I do think 10% after this time is pretty good, and if it ends the year closer to 20%, that'll be downright excellent in my view.)

But I want to add that where there's no HD VOD purchase alternative today, 2012 is an eternity away in technology terms, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was by then.

I'm a BD fan, so certainly I myself wish it success to add synergistic longevity to my own purchases thus far (and those I will continue to make), but I also understand that nothing can be taken for granted. The next couple of years are going to see *a lot* of players entering and fighting in the video distribution space. What matters is going to be how many people opt for one of these sources instead of BD; for some people convenience will trump quality, I think we can all agree on that, regardless of whether we can even guess at numbers. And so knowing that, I simply say that the future is unknown.

I just think it's always best to avoid speaking in absolutes when possible, and a line of thought along "BD will reign supreme in 2012" just seems too advance a prediction. For MS going BD, hell I mean obviously I think there are tons of scenarios that warrant it, as that's a point I was trying to make myself as well. But alternative scenarios can take them away from that is just something we also have to acknowledge.

@Eastmen: Am I detecting a theme in your movie purchases? :p
 
Given that BD sales have increased quite a bit last year and still are given the current economy, and the format had its first million seller (nearing 4 million), it's not going anywhere. Digital distribution has been a slow burner in comparison and won't replace physical media any time soon. Every current legit HD download I've seen is basically the same quality as an upscaled DVD, complete with lossy audio.

Until we see BD quality downloads and solid online infrastructures to support them for consumers worldwide, things won't change much. Of course, that's not to say that downloads and physical media can't and won't co-exist.

There are a lot of factors, both technical and commercial in the overall picture here. But we're off topic as it is so... :oops:

Over here Sex drive was $30 bucks on bluray day of and $15 on dvd. From what I was able to tell the dvd had more features to boot. Double the price and less features isn't going to drive consumers to the format as they struggle to pay mortgages and other bills. Or heck even when they can't find jobs. For that $15 in savings i can get a month of netflix that allows me to have 2 physical discs out at a time and unlimited streaming.

Where are you anyway? It's a known fact that Special Edition DVD's and BD are priced similarly while the regular edition SINGLE discs with no bonuses.

Notwithstanding early BD releases from 2006, BD releases nowadays have special features standardized with every release. Some major ones even has significant extras over the DVD such as Sleeping Beauty and The Dark Knight (WB hosted a live chat with Nolan too).

Either way, we're talking about privileges here so anyway suffering as much as your hypothetical example because of the economy won't be thinking about movies.
 
I just think it's always best to avoid speaking in absolutes when possible, and a line of thought along "BD will reign supreme in 2012" just seems too advance a prediction.

Is it really? The only way BD can fail is if the prices of players and discs are not reduced in a timely manner.

VOD makes sense for the rentals and stuff like TV shows, but to actually own a movie, I'm sure the vast majority of people out there would prefer a physical product. Pretty much every new movie has a special edition which is nothing more than an extra disc or two, a fancy box and sometimes a collectible in the package. People love these things and pay a nice premium for them. Why would studios give that up?
 
How do CD sales compare to download sales? This'll give an idea of how important physical media is compared to convenience. Personally I hate all the extras and just want the film. My ideal would be VOD, any title I want throughout history in top-notch quality. Technology isn't there yet, but when it is, good riddance to plastic discs!
 
How do CD sales compare to download sales? This'll give an idea of how important physical media is compared to convenience. Personally I hate all the extras and just want the film. My ideal would be VOD, any title I want throughout history in top-notch quality. Technology isn't there yet, but when it is, good riddance to plastic discs!

Download sales are estimated to have captured 35% of the US market, WW figures are a bit more murky as not all online stores are tracked, record companies like to make download sales look worse than they actually are so they can blame piracy for loss of earnings to investors. For EU figures I remember working on a report which estimated that of the total music market (downloads, records CDs, illegal p2p) legal downloads had less than 15% of the market, p2p had 35% of the market and CDs took the majority of the rest with SACD and such taking 0-1%. I know the piracy seems a little high, but in the EU piracy is always higher than in NA.
 
Is it really?

Yes, it really is (better to avoid absolutes).

The only way BD can fail is if the prices of players and discs are not reduced in a timely manner.

If you re-read my posts, again I'm not talking about BD failing or sticking around, I'm talking about it becoming the dominant mainstream video distribution method. Do I think it's got a good shot? I do. Do I think it's assured? I don't. And since I don't, obviously the proper rational thing to do is to then account for the alternative scenarios, such that they can be predicted.

The backdrop of the potential scenarios form the context in which MS will be making their decision.
 
Until we see BD quality downloads and solid online infrastructures to support them for consumers worldwide, things won't change much.

You are right between the difference in quality between HD VOD and BD; however, I'm not entirely convinced that there is demand for this delta outside a "soft videophile" niche.
 
If you re-read my posts, again I'm not talking about BD failing or sticking around, I'm talking about it becoming the dominant mainstream video distribution method. Do I think it's got a good shot? I do. Do I think it's assured? I don't. And since I don't, obviously the proper rational thing to do is to then account for the alternative scenarios, such that they can be predicted.

I know exactly what you meant, and I'm saying once again that the only way BD will fail to be the dominant video distribution method (for movies) is if players and disc prices are not reduced in a timely manner which allows for maximum market adoption. It's in the best interests of the movie studios to continue selling movies on a physical format, and they'll continue to treat digital downloads like a red headed stepchild.

A lot of movie buyers are collectors, hence the popularity of special editions. The premium of a special edition on BD is easily quantified by consumers because it is marketed as "X disc special edition." The special edition costs more because you are physically getting more discs, as well as the upgraded packaging and whatever goodies are in the box. How do you get collectors excited about a special edition of a digital download? Or get them to double or triple dip on the same title? A special edition of a digital download will be one file, and because of bandwidth constraints, have inferior audio, video and not as many extras.

Consider this: the special editions of LOTR trilolgy has sold over $400m and accounted for over 1/3 of all copies sold. That's a significant chunk of change and shows how important special editions are to studios. Also, Disney is very strongly commited to BD because all the movies in it's platinum series vault are basically special edition collectables.
 
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It's in the best interests of the movie studios to continue selling movies on a physical format, and they'll treat digital downloads like a red headed stepchild.

For now that may be true, but I don't think it's true longer term. Disc based movies have two major issues to the studios. First, they do not generate recurring revenue. Once they are bought they no longer earn any more money for the studio. Second, once the disc goes out it's pirated the same day. I think longer term the studios are more interested in dedicated and protected hardware that can stream movies to users homes, that way they are offered some protection against piracy and the streaming services basically force the user to keep paying every month and hence generate recurring revenue.

Universal/ubiquitous infrastructure to support this isn't there....yet. Once it is though I wouldn't be surprised if the studios started scaling back on movies on disc, first experimentally by only offering some movies via streaming, then eventually totally doing away with discs. Discs are nothing but a headache for the studios, they would go all digital in a shot if they could get away with it. For now they can't, but I think it's inevitable. I hope I'm wrong though because I like owning movies in the highest quality available with all the extras, but more and more I get the feeling I'm in the extreme minority regarding that.
 
I know exactly what you meant, and I'm saying once again that the only way BD will fail to be the dominant video distribution method (for movies) is if players and disc prices are not reduced in a timely manner which allows for maximum market adoption.

I personally think there's more than pricing to factor in here, and I've mentioned some of those factors of mine, but that's neither here nor there per se. On the pricing front specifically it's a delicate dance; there are a lot of people I've read around the net and elsewhere advocating for DVD equiv pricing on BD's... and certainly they'd sell more BD's... but then what becomes the point for the studio? For them BD is supposed to offer a higher margin product to push back against DVDs falling margins. Now where that balance will be ultimately, I don't know, but it will be necessarily higher than DVD pricing at least on some level. For myself I think the ~$5 general premium is as fair as it can be given the obvious market dynamics; for some though it's too much and they complain. The ~$10 spread releases and higher I do think should move closer to ~$5.

In terms of equipment, well the reductions on pricing due to improved BD structural costs should keep that aspect pushing downward for the foreseeable future.
 
For now that may be true, but I don't think it's true longer term. Disc based movies have two major issues to the studios. First, they do not generate recurring revenue. Once they are bought they no longer earn any more money for the studio.

Sure they do. Studios re-release special editions of movies that collectors double or even triple dip on. Disney's entire vault strategy is based on this. How can you market a digital download to be collectible to these buyers?

Second, once the disc goes out it's pirated the same day. I think longer term the studios are more interested in dedicated and protected hardware that can stream movies to users homes, that way they are offered some protection against piracy and the streaming services basically force the user to keep paying every month and hence generate recurring revenue.

I don't think piracy of BDs is that big of deal to studios at the moment. It is currently impossible to rip a BD and burn it to disc and have it play in any BD player, which is biggest thing that studios care about.
 
It is currently impossible to rip a BD and burn it to disc and have it play in any BD player, which is biggest thing that studios care about.

I cant answer for "any" BD Player, but it´s been done.

My ideal would be VOD, any title I want throughout history in top-notch quality. Technology isn't there yet, but when it is, good riddance to plastic discs!

iTunes does allow you to burn a CD that can play in any CD player. If VOD allowed the same service so you could burn a BR copy it would be one step closer to what i would like. Just needs to fix the 50GB required download :)

Or just supply the movies in a non DRM format, also hell is freezing over and DNF was released on time.

You are right between the difference in quality between HD VOD and BD; however, I'm not entirely convinced that there is demand for this delta outside a "soft videophile" niche.

The question is how big the niche is and how fast it will grow as viewers get better and better displays.
 
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Sure they do. Studios re-release special editions of movies that collectors double or even triple dip on. Disney's entire vault strategy is based on this. How can you market a digital download to be collectible to these buyers?

Warning, extreme thread off-topicness ahead :)

It's interesting that you mention the Disney vault strategy, because they are some of the most pirated movies out there because of their restricted vault sales strategy. Ask people who have young kids. Are they going to wait until Disney gives them permission to buy it so their kids can watch it? Nope, they will find other ways to get it if Disney won't provide it. Back in the vault? I don't think so :)

In any case, the key word that caught my eye in your post was the word 'collectible'. What percentage of the populace views movies as collectible, and what percentage just wants to watch movies? If you are the collectible type then you will probably always prefer discs to streaming, although you may still supplement discs with streaming if available.

My guess though is that the majority are not into collectibility, they just want to watch movies. Given that, the studios can make more money by making it as easy as possible for that percentage of users to be able to spend money on movies. Streaming movies right to their homes is the easiest way, either with a recurring fee or the simplicity of the impulse buy, rather than depending on them to make their way to Best Buy to buy a movie. And of course, the elimination of piracy is a side bonus.

Further, no discs means they could have much better control of movie prices. Lets face it, people like to claim that dvd's are $19, but the reality is that they are easy to get for $5 to $10 if you look around a bit, it's not that hard. If you eliminate discs from the picture and hence eliminate the retail middleman, then they have total control over pricing effectively ending the bargain movie bin and the used movie market like ebay.
 
You are right between the difference in quality between HD VOD and BD; however, I'm not entirely convinced that there is demand for this delta outside a "soft videophile" niche.

Price has always been an issue, and as they go down, the quality can speak for itself. Of course, not everyone collects movies but that's not hurting DVD sales as much as piracy.

Its lifetime sales and user base up to date are beyond the niche segment that forever doomed LD (because of pricing and other issues).
 

I'm in jersey,

Role models $17 vs $27

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9193909&type=product&id=1946701

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9193883&type=product&id=1946701

Bolt
$17 vs $27
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...nrp=15&sp=&qp=&list=n&iht=y&usc=Movies&ks=960

and if i still had the past circular for when sex drive came out you can see that the dvd was on sale for $15 that week but the bluray was still $30
 
Sure they do. Studios re-release special editions of movies that collectors double or even triple dip on. Disney's entire vault strategy is based on this. How can you market a digital download to be collectible to these buyers?
And each time they make less and less than the first release and are often sold for less depending on whats in the package.

Disney's vault doesn't really work that way. How many times have they released a given movie in the vault collection on dvd ? The vault is to make sure that they control how many copies are out there so that they can sell Beauty and the beast for $20 bucks for a year , sell millions of copys , takei t off the shelves for 5 years and then re release it for $20 bucks and then pull it again. If they leave it on shelves it would loose its value

I don't think piracy of BDs is that big of deal to studios at the moment. It is currently impossible to rip a BD and burn it to disc and have it play in any BD player, which is biggest thing that studios care about.

bluray has been cracked for a long time you might want to read up on it. I've seen plenty of 720p re-encodes float around the web and have even viewed one or two of them in the past. Some are ripped at 1080p and encoded to fit into a single layer bluray. I personaly rather pay to own it or i'd just rent it.
 
It's interesting that you mention the Disney vault strategy, because they are some of the most pirated movies out there because of their restricted vault sales strategy. Ask people who have young kids. Are they going to wait until Disney gives them permission to buy it so their kids can watch it? Nope, they will find other ways to get it if Disney won't provide it. Back in the vault? I don't think so :)

I'm not a parent myself, but I honestly do not think that parents would knowingly purchase a bootleg for their kids. What kind of example is that to set for young children? Disney is a strong supporter for BD because it's impossible to make a 1:1 copy of a BD-ROM. Disney titles typically have a high degree of extras and interactivity and any non genuine copy would be instantly identified as a bootleg since it would be movie only.

My guess though is that the majority are not into collectibility, they just want to watch movies. Given that, the studios can make more money by making it as easy as possible for that percentage of users to be able to spend money on movies. Streaming movies right to their homes is the easiest way, either with a recurring fee or the simplicity of the impulse buy, rather than depending on them to make their way to Best Buy to buy a movie. And of course, the elimination of piracy is a side bonus

What you're suggesting sounds just like DIVX, which was soundly rejected by consumers when it was first introduced.

bluray has been cracked for a long time you might want to read up on it. I've seen plenty of 720p re-encodes float around the web and have even viewed one or two of them in the past. Some are ripped at 1080p and encoded to fit into a single layer bluray. I personaly rather pay to own it or i'd just rent it.

Yes I realize there are 720p encodes and rips that play in a BD player, but none of those rips have BDMV file structure, and it is impossible to make a 1:1 copy (which is what studios really care about).
 
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Yes I realize there are 720p encodes and rips that play in a BD player, but none of those rips have BDMV file structure, and it is impossible to make a 1:1 copy (which is what studios really care about).

A friend of mine bought a John Mayer concert (i think it was) from amazon, when he got it it turned out to be region locked. He tried alot of different things, among them getting his laptop region cracked.

He ended up buying anydvd and a Writeable dual layer BR and made a perfect copy that plays.

If by 1:1 you mean that the copy protection isn´t copied, then your right :)
 
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