why the xbox720 should be using HD-DVD

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by Dargakis, Mar 2, 2009.

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  1. -tkf-

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    While it would be fun to have a sales discussion on Blu-Ray i think that until Blu-Ray is outselling DVD by 10 to 1 people with an agenda will call it a failure. I just need to look at the steady release of titles as evidence that someone is making money on the market. As long as they make money i can keep buying my movies and avoid the shitty DVD´s.

    http://www.blu-raystats.com/ is a good place for those that want to bend numbers.

    Blu-Ray can be bought worldwide. You have a million different VOD services spread out through the world with different level of services, quality and DRM systems, hardly a defacto standard. If i buy a Blu-Ray movie, i can play it in any Blu-Ray player i can buy in my country. If i buy a movie from a VOD supplier, i have to stick to that system forever.

    The discussion is about how wise it would be to include a dead format instead of the winning format and theirby including Blu-Ray playback. Not how Wii won the world with SD graphics and family values :)
     
  2. KongRudi

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    I hope all next-gen systems gets a Bluray-drive, it's time to phase out DVD.

    Games are not beeing pirated on PS3, and it's also enough storage-space to deliver alot of gameplay, sound and cutscenes, and it's also the best movie-playback available at the moment.
    I see only positives.
     
  3. eastmen

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    bluray has nothing to do with games not being pirated. The games can easily be ripped and there are hudnreds of bluray movies that can be downloaded.

    Who cares about world wide. I onyl care about my area as thats whats important to me. I already have a great vod service in netflix. In 3 years it will be a much better service.
     
  4. -tkf-

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    If you plan on staying in USA and never change VOD supplier or Console Supplier you have nothing to worry about, for now :)
     
  5. Shifty Geezer

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    Because the way you phrased your response, it sounded like you didn't.

    Here's a tip - leave the passive-aggresive attitude out of the board unless you want it to be forceably removed. From your choice of words, I understood you to be confused and took the time to explain the technology. Had you have been confused, this would have been beneficial to your understanding. If you weren't confused, the correct, civilised response is something like, 'Sorry, you misunderstood me. What I meant was...' Politeness generates a far better quality discussion than superior attitudes that look down on anyone who isn't 100% on your wavelength and in agreement with you.

    Now as it is, I'm not following your arguments at all. You are muddling theoretical claims and complaints of BRD features and VMD features. You look at 8 layer BRD as unproicen, yet cite VMD as capable of many more layers. Mainstream VMD with > 4 layers is as theoretical as 8+ layer BRD at this point, so neither can be trusted to be useable in a next-gen console. As for speeds, we know, factually, BRD has greater information density than VMD, and we know multilayer = slow, which makes any multi-layer advantage of VMD moot, even if they do introduce a blue-laser format.

    In fact all of these technologies are principly the same and there are no huge advantages to be found in any. The format war wasn't won on technical prowess but on content. VMD's special strong-point is lots of layers, which are worthless for streaming game content. So unless you can identify a clear density advantage or substrate advantage or drive-system advantage that would allow for faster reads from blue-laser VMD than BRD, and can present a case that producing blue-laser VMD discs will also be cheaper than producing BRDs, and can present a clear and realistic timeline for blue-VMD's availbility and cheapness by the next-gen boxes considering they aren't developing that aspect at all, all you can offer is an idea on why you think VMD might be a good choice.
     
  6. grandmaster

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    I'm afraid it does. The encryption is linked intrinsically to the ROM mark copy protection on the Blu-ray disc. The PS3 game dumps are a waste of time since the rips do not take into account the ROM mark decryption required on key files in the dump. This cannot be circumvented because the drive's firmware is encrypted, and it's tied to the specific PS3 motherboard it shipped with. This in turn cannot be circumvented since PS3's GameOS has not been hacked.

    In no way whatsoever can Blu-ray as a format be piracy-friendly (for games, movies is a different matter) so the notion that MS should go for a different format due to piracy concerns is completely unfounded.
     
  7. DrJay24

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    So you enjoy Netflix's horrible selection of highly compressed SD movies? No new movies for a year too, right? You pay for the service and do not use or recognize that almost all new releases come out on BD for $1/month?

    I use Netflix VOD on my 360, but lets not be silly and somehow say it replaces disc based movies. I doubt they will stream HD new releases anytime soon, and if they do they will probably charge per movie like everyone else.
     
  8. GuestLV

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    True,but PS2 games via hack runs from HDD without DVD
     
  9. I.S.T.

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    Yes, but DVD's copy protection is far, far more simple. You cannot compare the two, really.
     
  10. specwarGP2

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    I dont think that's correct. There was an alternative to BD - hd dvd, which got cracked first. BD eventually got partially cracked while hd dvd was still alive, and BD still isn't fully cracked today. AFAIK, you still can't rip a BD and burn it.

    I'm sure PS3 can eventually be cracked, but on a practical level it's unhackable - just like digital cable (has never been cracked) and DirecTVs P4 cards which basically killed piracy on that platform overnight.
     
  11. grandmaster

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    Quite so. PS2 hardly has any copy protection at all. Certainly nothing anywhere near the sophistication of PS3.
     
  12. NathansFortune

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    Err, mostly pointing out that I'm not a noob when it comes to this type of tech. Though it has to be said, you are the first VMP fan I have ever come across...

    Again, where have you seen that, it says 20 layer, but it doesn't specify red or blue laser. The optics for a 20 layer disc would be prohibitively expensive and the laser would have to be very powerful to reach the 20th layer and come back undistorted enough for any information to be read from it. The only way I could see it working is if they licensed Toshiba's awesome PRML tech, but it seems unlikely that NME could afford such an extravagance.

    QL red laser is a completely different prospect to QL blue laser. Using a red laser optical format will lead to long install times or very slow streaming speed. HD DVD already exists at DL which is pretty good at 30GB and 288Mbit read speed. QL blue laser VMD doesn't exist, and until it is shown at a trade show or somewhere IRL, then it is merely a paper specification.

    It has been on the market since 2007, but since then it has sold an untrackable number of players (NPD don't have any figures, not that I can see), and NME haven't released any sales data for discs or players. They haven't released any new information about the development of blue laser tech or incorporating blue laser tech into the VMD spec.

    Even ignoring all of that (which seems like something you like doing) HD DVD has got a much more complete infrastructure, TSST have got lines to make HD DVD-ROM drives as do Lite-On. MS would have a bunch of manufacturers to choose from when they tender out the contracts instead of going to one solitary start up with next to no funding or existing infrastructure to manufacture > 10m drives in less than a year.
     
  13. eastmen

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    Well I guess bluray is fine also if you decide to never upgrade to a newer better format later down the line...

    My VOD is $15 a month and i get physical medium movies as well as unlimited streaming of movies. Thats less than 1 bluray a month.
     
  14. -tkf-

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    :)

    Do i come across as someone that will sit idle on a inferior format?

    My Laserdisc collection never got big, but i have 30-40 discs, i entered that world a bit to late, before that it was VHS with HiFi sound.

    Laserdiscs got replaced by the 700 or DVD´s, they are all collecting duct now, except for the rare Music DVD of which many was filmed on Video anyway.

    If there is a UHD format i will be there again, my life is to short for compromises on stuff like that, and even though i am by far not Rick James rich i have no trouble paying for the best experience when i sit down and spend 2 hours with a movie.
     
  15. RudeCurve

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    True so it's not worth discussing, but it didn't stop other people from proclaiming BD to be able to have more layers than any other format.

    If they introduce their blue laser QL VMD, it would be equal to HD DVD in terms of density but better in terms of total capacity. They state 60GB QL VMD eg 15GB/layer. Not to mention it would have better physcial antipiracty capability than both HD DVD and BD. MS isn't going to release their next console for several years so there's plenty of time to kick start the blue laser QL VMD format. According to their website existing lines can be upgraded to blue laser lines fairly easily. Of course someone has to fit the bill for the upgrade but that's another discussiion.

    This isn't a format war. This is me offering my view of why VMD may be a viable alternative to HD DVD and BD as a proprietary physical disc format to use in a nextgen console as a means to combat piracy with the added benefit of higher capacity, good throughtput and future potential.

    How is it worthless? Last time I checked X360 DVDs were dual layer and streamed pretty well.

    I've already presented many of the points you list....in fact that is how I actually came to the conclusion that......"Hey VMD looks like it has the potentioinal to be a very good proprietary game format for the next Xbox".
     
    #115 RudeCurve, Mar 5, 2009
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  16. RudeCurve

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    Fair enough, it means little though. I can claim to be any person on any website, doesn't make it true and especially doesn't mean I'm more of an insider or expert.

    I think 20 layer is what their fundamental optical disc technology can realistically provide IF the need is there. Obviously it will cost more than QL but that's not really the point. The point is if MS adopts VMD for their 3rd gen console they will have the ability to use the same format for their 4th gen console as well just by scaling the number of layers.

    QL blue laser VMD doesn't exist because there isn't a need for it right now. The current red laser versiion is doing fine at 24GB for HD movies. There is no point in upgrading the lines to blue laser when the demand for it isn't there...yet.

    True but I don't see how volume can't be ramped up between now and the time the next Xbox launches. We're talking several years. Also in the event that NME's drive contractor can't handle the volume, they'd simply license the technology out to other drive manufacturers.
     
    #116 RudeCurve, Mar 5, 2009
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  17. aaaaa00

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    With just one client, xbox, for any hypothetical proprietary VMD based XDISC format, I'd think you'd be hard pressed to find drive manufacturers signing up to build the drives.

    At least going with a HD DVD based XDISC would mean the vast majority of work could be shared with the chinese HD DVD derived standard and you could reap the advantages of economies of scale that comes with that.

    ...Not that I think MS is going to go with an HD DVD based XDISC format.
     
  18. joker454

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    That makes my point actually :) When there was an alternative to blu-ray, namely hd-dvd, hackers went to that first because it was the easy mark. It got hacked and provided enough content to make the pirate scene happy. Once hd-dvd died, hacker attention turned to blu-ray since it was now the only alternative and it fell as well. Every blu-ray today can be ripped, I have dumped and re-encoded my entire 70 blu-ray disc so that I can play them anywhere around the house via a raid drive. Ahh, finally true 'fair use' :)

    Maybe...but I'm not a big believer in 'unhackable'. DirecTV is a pain to hack, but why bother, there are numerous other sources for all it's content except for perhaps NFL Sunday Ticket. Same with a PS3. It's clearly more secure, but why bother hacking it when there are other sources for the same content that are easier to hack. I still think the PS3 would have been hacked by now if the 360 didn't exist.
     
  19. -tkf-

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    HD-DVD was out earlier than Blu-Ray, and the first player had a PC-Drive, of course it was bound to be hacked first :)

    The things learned from HD-DVD made it easy to crack Blu-Ray when that arrived.

    It´s true that nothing is uncrackable, but right now the PS3 is just that.
     
  20. Shifty Geezer

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    But slower than BRD, including the overhead of deeper layers that slow things down further. So performance-wise, BRD has the upper hand.

    That's probably true, although if the production is as straight-forward as they say, it wouldn't take muich for a large pirating organistion (if they exist! I don't about these things) to retrofit their own production facitilities. If pirates are dependent on consumer-level writers though, VMD could be unproducable for them.

    Sadly companies predictions of ease never pan out. Technology invariable runs a year or three behind the intended deadlines. 65nm components were expected far sooner in the consoles than they actually arrived. This news report from 2004 says VMD was expected to hit retailers in Fall 2005 with 30 GB discs, while this report says the first VMD player appeared a year late. NME are bound to say 'it's easy!' but there are almost certainly problems to overcome. The lack of any blue-laser system now means come next-gen, the technology will likely be as new as BRD was when PS3 launched. Of course it won't cost anything liek as much as blue-laser creation will be old hat, but it'll still have the niggles and costs of a new format, and also the risk of a company that may not be economically sound if it hasn't managed to secure a suitably sized chunk of the market with the existing VMD format.


    No, indeed, but my point was that any format is pretty the same as any other. The only reason we have different formats is do to people chasing the content markets. Picking between HD-DVd, BRD or a proprietary format, technical considerations aren't really a factor. It'll come down to how effective the infrastructure is to support the medium, with established (or easily built) production facilities, and readily available drives and competitive prices.

    Higher capacity isn't an advantage over BRD, which ahs both an existing incrased capacity over current VMD, enough capacity now to cover virtually all games next-gen, and as much theoretical scope to increase in capcity as VMD within the limits of useability. That is, even if VMD can offer 10 layers at 15 GBs a layer, that capacity won't be needed, or will be too slow to use, IMO.

    Going beyond 2 layers is the problem, and that's VMD key selling point. Quad layer might not be sustainable. Other people have said as much, and they seem to have better knowhow than me in this field.

    It's certainly an option, but in comparison to the alternatives, I don't see the advantages outwieghing aprice and ease difference, and I don't see VMD being able to compete with BRD which will be very cheap by then.
     
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