why the xbox720 should be using HD-DVD

[Quaz51]

5GB per layer using red laser is not bad...that's the same as DVD and nowadays we have 22X DVD drives. Switching to blue laser you'd have 10GB per layer minimum, not as good as BR or HD DVD but not bad either. The main advantage is theoretically VMD can have many more layers than BR.

5GB per layer is bad density/bandwidth for nextgen storage and VMD with blue laser is not VMD
and more layer is not really an advantage, it's more constrain (disc production constrain, more difficult to read at high speed, break bandwidth when swap between layer...) and BD don't need more layer that is already possible (four, eigth...)

 

[-tkf-]

I honestly don't think BR movie playback will be much of a factor nextgen as most people who want BR will already have standalone players.

Even with standalone BR players in every room in the house the Consoles with Blu-Ray support will be able to save one player pr household.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

5GB per layer using red laser is not bad...that's the same as DVD and nowadays we have 22X DVD drives. Switching to blue laser you'd have 10GB per layer minimum, not as good as BR or HD DVD but not bad either. The main advantage is theoretically VMD can have many more layers than BR.

It's not maximum storage that's meant by density, but density of pits per track. The disc is limited by physics to spinning at a maximum speed.

The head reads the track as if it were a long, single line, passing over the head at so many metres per second. The speed of the disc rotating affects the speed of the track passing over the head. Each bit of data is encoded by a pit on the track surface. the limiting factor to transfer rate is how many pits you can get over the read head in a second. If you spin the disc twice as fast, the pits pass over the head twice as fast, and you get 2x the transfer rate. If you want even faster read speeds, spin the disc even faster...until *BANG* it blows up! There are physical limits that cap the use of a plastic disc at something like 52x AFAIK. The only other way to improve transfer rates once you're spinning at the maximum rate is to use smaller pits paced closer together along the track. This packs the data in more tightly meaning for each metre/s of track passing over the read head, more pits are being detected by the read head. BRD has the greatest density of data.

When you're looking at over a minute to fill the plentiful RAM we'll have (fingers crossed ) just to play you're game, and are severely capping the rate you can stream in new content, optical speed becomes a big factor. Given two XB360s, one with a 10 MB/s optical drive and one with a 50 MB/s optical drive, the second model would enable much better streaming allowing for better quality assets and more variety.

Of course another option for next-gen is, given optical will be slow regardless when dealing with GBs, to use some internal cache Flash or similar, and copy over the disc, at which point short of aggravating installs, streaming from optical won't be a problem. You could go with a cheap, slow VMD say and, after a five minute install, will be able to play it with the expected experience.

 

[Quaz51]

holographic storage can would have high potential bandwidth because can read 1 millions bits simultaneously versus just one for classic optical media but there are others constrain

 

[Shifty Geezer]

True. I need to correct my use of the term 'optical media' to 'conventional optical disc media'.

 

[joker454]

Which is interesting, since the PS3 is the only console out there that's not hacked yet.

That's only because there isn't much need to hack a PS3. Hackers go after the easier target, in this case the 360, which gets them the bulk of the games anyways. It's the same with Dishnet and DirecTV. Dishnet was the easier target so the hackers went after that and got the bulk of the content there. Everything is hackable, there just has to be a need and/or demand. Blu-ray movies are in demand and there is no real easier target, so they got hacked.

If 45 GB triple layer HD-DVD is acceptible, than so is a 50 GB dual-layer BRD

The dual-layer brd is actually much more desirable in that comparison because layer changes incur a performance hit, so 2 layers > 3 layers. In any case, I can't imagine that hd-dvd or some variant would be cheaper than a blu-ray drive 3 years from now.

 

[-tkf-]

That's only because there isn't much need to hack a PS3. Hackers go after the easier target, in this case the 360, which gets them the bulk of the games anyways. It's the same with Dishnet and DirecTV. Dishnet was the easier target so the hackers went after that and got the bulk of the content there. Everything is hackable, there just has to be a need and/or demand. Blu-ray movies are in demand and there is no real easier target, so they got hacked.

I bet you a million internets that there is hackers doing whatever they can to crack the PS3, and they have been trying ever since it got released, it´s just very hard.

 

[joker454]

I bet you a million internets that there is hackers doing whatever they can to crack the PS3, and they have been trying ever since it got released, it´s just very hard.

I'm sure there are, just like there are some still trying to crack DirecTV, if anything just for the sport of it. But it's just not critical that either get cracked since the alternatives are already cracked and in plentiful supply. If there were no 360 though, I would bet you a million internets that the PS3 would have been cracked by now. Just look at blu-ray movies with their super sophisticated piracy measures. There is no alternative to blu-ray so every hacker turned their sights to it and poof, cracked. Makes no difference how complex something is, the protections always fall.

 

[aaaaa00]

You've posted the link twice without reading the article. That's not HD-DVD, but a format that exists only in China and WB is using it to try to combat piracy further.

The physical format is essentially identical to HD DVD.

It is very convenient for the movie studios that HD DVD failed over here. If they reuse the technology just for China (and potentially other developing nations), they can price the movies really cheap to fight piracy. Everywhere else in the world people won't be able to play them -- so they will still have to buy expensive Blu Ray discs instead.

 

[jonabbey]

I'm sure there are, just like there are some still trying to crack DirecTV, if anything just for the sport of it. But it's just not critical that either get cracked since the alternatives are already cracked and in plentiful supply. If there were no 360 though, I would bet you a million internets that the PS3 would have been cracked by now. Just look at blu-ray movies with their super sophisticated piracy measures. There is no alternative to blu-ray so every hacker turned their sights to it and poof, cracked. Makes no difference how complex something is, the protections always fall.

So what was the point of Cell's protected mode processing for the SPU?

 

[NathansFortune]

VMD is actually a viable option if MS wants to take that route. A 4-layer VMD disc can hold 20GBs using red laser. With blue laser and the option to add more layers as needed think of the possibilities. Even though NME is a tiny company they're selling the players for around $200 and the movies aren't more expensive than Blu-ray. The technoligy is already pretty cheap even without large econmies of scale. I'm pretty sure whoever is manufacturing the drives for NME will be head over heals for a X720 contract for tens of millions of drives. I honestly don't think BR movie playback will be much of a factor nextgen as most people who want BR will already have standalone players.

VMD lol!

> DL tech is a poor idea as the manufacturing process for TL/QL discs is pretty bad for optical discs of any kind.

If VMD used a B/V laser diode it would be TL/QL HD DVD.

Streaming data from VMD would be very slow too, so MS would have to be in a suicidal mood if they picked VMD as their next gen format.

 

[NathansFortune]

5GB per layer using red laser is not bad...that's the same as DVD and nowadays we have 22X DVD drives. Switching to blue laser you'd have 10GB per layer minimum, not as good as BR or HD DVD but not bad either. The main advantage is theoretically VMD can have many more layers than BR.

Err, BD can have many more layers than any other optical disc format, so far I have seen 8 layer discs demonstrated at trade shows. I saw a TDK demo at a show last year of a 200GB BD at a special invite BD event, it was playing on a modified Sony player using special optics.

As far as read speed is concerned 12x is the current maximum, but 16x is being worked on along with BD100.

I believe Sony will use Blu-ray again, which will force MS into an antagonistic position of using a proprietary format like HD DVD as it is similar enough and can benefit from all of the same technical advances that are made by the BD companies.

 

[RudeCurve]

5GB per layer is bad density/bandwidth for nextgen storage and VMD with blue laser is not VMD
and more layer is not really an advantage, it's more constrain (disc production constrain, more difficult to read at high speed, break bandwidth when swap between layer...) and BD don't need more layer that is already possible (four, eigth...)

Actually NME said their VMD technology can be adapted to blue laser very easily same way blue laser was adapted to DVD->HD DVD easily, but unlike DVD to HD DVD, VMD technology allows MORE layers than what DVD is capable. HD DVD is contrained just like DVD to two layers, VMD is not. VMD allows up to 100 layers.

The first generation VMD line is capable of producing DVD-5 and DVD-9, 4-layer VMD discs with up to 24 GB capacity. This line is upgradeable to manufacture 2-layer and 4-layer VMD Blue Laser discs with up to 60 GB capacity.

It's not maximum storage that's meant by density, but density of pits per track. The disc is limited by physics to spinning at a maximum speed.

Why do you kneejerkingly assume I don't know what density means? I KNOW what it means. All I was saying is that VMD offers the same density as DVD which is NOT bad considering there are 22X speed DVD drives out there. What is the maximum transfer speed of DVD at 22X??? What is the maxim using blue laser??? In other words you can make up for AVERAGE density with faster disc speed to increase bandwidth/throughput. Oh btw according to NME their blue laser VMDs have 15GB per layer and their red VMDs have 6GB per layer which is slightly better than DVD but again with the capability of many more layers.

The head reads the track as if it were a long, single line, passing over the head at so many metres per second. The speed of the disc rotating affects the speed of the track passing over the head. Each bit of data is encoded by a pit on the track surface. the limiting factor to transfer rate is how many pits you can get over the read head in a second. If you spin the disc twice as fast, the pits pass over the head twice as fast, and you get 2x the transfer rate. If you want even faster read speeds, spin the disc even faster...until *BANG* it blows up! There are physical limits that cap the use of a plastic disc at something like 52x AFAIK. The only other way to improve transfer rates once you're spinning at the maximum rate is to use smaller pits paced closer together along the track. This packs the data in more tightly meaning for each metre/s of track passing over the read head, more pits are being detected by the read head. BRD has the greatest density of data.

When you're looking at over a minute to fill the plentiful RAM we'll have (fingers crossed ) just to play you're game, and are severely capping the rate you can stream in new content, optical speed becomes a big factor. Given two XB360s, one with a 10 MB/s optical drive and one with a 50 MB/s optical drive, the second model would enable much better streaming allowing for better quality assets and more variety.

Thanks for the kindergarden explanation to optical drive concepts I learned and understood over 20 years ago.

Of course another option for next-gen is, given optical will be slow regardless when dealing with GBs, to use some internal cache Flash or similar, and copy over the disc, at which point short of aggravating installs, streaming from optical won't be a problem. You could go with a cheap, slow VMD say and, after a five minute install, will be able to play it with the expected experience.

Yeah that concept is called a buffer, invented long ago...even the first single speed CDROM drives had little 64K buffers.

Err, BD can have many more layers than any other optical disc format, so far I have seen 8 layer discs demonstrated at trade shows. I saw a TDK demo at a show last year of a 200GB BD at a special invite BD event, it was playing on a modified Sony player using special optics.

As far as read speed is concerned 12x is the current maximum, but 16x is being worked on along with BD100.

I believe Sony will use Blu-ray again, which will force MS into an antagonistic position of using a proprietary format like HD DVD as it is similar enough and can benefit from all of the same technical advances that are made by the BD companies.

Er, 8 > 100?

Er indeed.

If MS uses VMD, I could see the technology transitiioning to blue laser more rapidly than it is now. Who knows the X720 might be the first console to use blue laser based VMD drives/discs.

EDIT: Oh btw the current 4 layer VMD is 24GB not 20GB using red laser so the density is actually better than DVD.

 

[MfA]

8 real ones > 100 imaginary ones.

 

[RudeCurve]

8 real ones > 100 imaginary ones.

Stuff in the lab doesn't = stuff on the shelf of Walmart.

VMD already has 4 layer discs on the shelf at Walmart, what does BD have? 8 layers in the lab and 2 layers on the shelf.

Flying cars are real too...where can I buy one?

I'm pretty sure NME has prototype VMDs in the lab just like BD, but unlike BD those prototypes are several tens of layers.

 

[eastmen]

You've posted the link twice without reading the article. That's not HD-DVD, but a format that exists only in China and WB is using it to try to combat piracy further.



So what? Adding another value to any console isn't exactly a bad thing especially if the drives are cheaper and the copy protection is good enough for MS. BD drives will only get better as have all other optical formats before it. With the current world economy, the BDA will undoubtedly be more aggressive than ever with prices.

MS invested enough money to keep HD-DVD alive for two years, and I highly doubt that they'll want to foot the bill to revive it just to use it as proprietary format. It may make some sense technically but economically, it doesn't one bit.

Of course its hd dvd. You never kept up with the format war did you. the only diffrence is that they are using the chinese owned avs codec for audio and video instead of what hd dvd did. The hardware itself is liscensed from toshiba.

 

[DrJay24]

All I was saying is that VMD offers the same density as DVD which is NOT bad considering there are 22X speed DVD drives out there. What is the maximum transfer speed of DVD at 22X???

As a consumer I don't want to use anymore high RPM jet engine drives. I now install every game I play to my 360 to avoid the noise.

 

[eastmen]

It´s the only HiDef format you can buy on a disc, it IS the defacto standard when it comes to High Definition video.

Video on Demand in HD is so fragmented it makes World Peace looks more likely than a united VOD format.



Blu-Ray is a factor, how can you say otherwise, it´s been costly and it´s been a positive part of the PS3 as well, it´s been a big factor

Download speeds, compression, it matter less than empty bottles when your thirsty. You need WORLD WIDE SUPPOT to rely on that if you want your Console to play movies. And you need Worldwide internet connections that lives up to the needed speed. And you need ISP´s that doesn´t cap your downloads.

For Blu-Ray i just need money to buy the disc, and it´s mine for ever and ever. Today the PS3 is the only console that can playback High Def movies in every part of the world. I expect that every next gen Console will do the same.

Its not the only high def I can buy and who knows if bluray will be around or important in 2011. Its sales aren't exactly setting fires and as the depression goes on $30 movies will start to sell less and less.


Also as for world wide support The wii has no video playback modes and yet its outselling the ps3 by a land slide that can basicly play every type of media under the sun


Bluray hasn't been a positive factor for the ps3. Its inclusion and high cost has cost sony countless money in terms of losses on each sale and sales lost due to price.


The wii has showed us that we simply don't need these devices to be all in one players and next gen bluray will be dirt cheap for stand alone players

 

[RudeCurve]

As a consumer I don't want to use anymore high RPM jet engine drives. I now install every game I play to my 360 to avoid the noise.

And that's why you'll get an even bigger HDD in the X720...they're not going away. Technology-wise blue laser VMD are actually superior than HD DVD and in some ways better than BD. With 15GB per layer you don't need to spin the disc at astronomical speeds.

The wii has showed us that we simply don't need these devices to be all in one players and next gen bluray will be dirt cheap for stand alone players

Totally agree there, BD players are already cheap and in a few more years they'll be selling for the same price as DVD players are today. Anyone who is interested in BD will get or already have a standalone player. The next Xbox will do fine with a proprietary blue laser drive that can upconvert stand DVDs.

 

[DrJay24]

And that's why you'll get an even bigger HDD in the X720...they're not going away. Technology-wise blue laser VMD are actually superior than HD DVD and in some ways better than BD.

So this hypothetical format is better than BD?

This guy said it best...

Stuff in the lab doesn't = stuff on the shelf of Walmart.