Why Nintendo Won't Grow Up

[Magnum PI]

Yuji Naka > Miyamoto as well:

Sonic
Sonic Adventure
NiGHTS

for sure, very complex games...

Phantasy Star

OK..

Samba de Amigo

i guess a maracas simulator must be a very complex game..

Burning Rangers

dunno

Phantasy Star Online

you could hardly make more simplistic in this genre.

Platform, RPG, Music, Adventure, Network RPG. That's a pretty impressive list.

it's a great list. but miyamoto one's don't pale in comparison.

He also suffers from Miyamoto's weakness for poor narrative and story though, but his games aren't as simplistic.

stop your endless nitpicking.
your exercise in tarnishing miyamoto works is pathetic.

 

[Reznor007]

I guess we shouldn't praise Steven Spieberg or George Lucas either, I mean without the special effects teams, they wouldn't be anything right?

Regarding the arcades, IIRC SEGA is the only one left holding the fort in that field and they've been doing pretty well.

Don't forget Namco and Konami.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

I've said my piece. I'll leave you Nintendorks to your mushrooms. 8)

I'm going back to playing a very good game with poor controls called Metroid Prime.

 

[Magnum PI]

I've said my piece. I'll leave you Nintendorks to your mushrooms. 8)

thus spoke the wise guy...

I'm going back to playing a very good game with poor controls called Metroid Prime.

very good game ?
poor controls ?
in the same phrase ?

wouldn't these things be mutually exclusive ?

but i shouldn't be suprised, as we see the thing very differently.

 

[StefanS]

I've said my piece. I'll leave you Nintendorks to your mushrooms. 8)

thus spoke the wise guy...

I'm going back to playing a very good game with poor controls called Metroid Prime.

very good game ?
poor controls ?
in the same phrase ?

wouldn't these things be self-exclusive ?

but i shouldn't be suprised, as we see the thing very differently.

Well what do you exspect of a person having Blinx and Jet Set Radio Future on his list of the 10 best games 2002 while leaving out SMS.

 

[Ozymandis]

Well what do you exspect of a person having Blinx and Jet Set Radio Future on his list of the 10 best games 2002 while leaving out SMS.

*shrug*

I didn't care for Super Mario Sunshine either. I agree with him that Jet Set Radio Future was a better game than SMS.

But I dunno about Blinx...

 

[jvd]

Yea sms was a fun game but it was basicly mario 64 part 2. Its like saying sonic adventure 2 was a master piece. it was a good game but it was just an extension of the first one.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

I have a soft spot for BLiNX. I really like the time controls and the replayability of the levels. It's very fun and innovative IMO. SMS was good, but it just didn't quite make the list. Probably would have been number 11.

I wasn't aware that Nintendo fans were keeping track of my preferences, but thanks, it's nice to be noticed.

 

[Legion]

it was too much like mario64 for me.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Ozy-

Virtua Fighter series not the defining 3d fighter?

You've got to be kidding me.

Certainly not, but not due to if it is the best of breed or not. SuperMarioBros defined/created the 2D side scrolling genre and all those that followed it strayed very little from its course. Same with Mario64. Before Mario we had a number of '3D' platformers, all of them trying out their own unique spin on it(Crash, Sonic etc). Mario hit and from that point forward, not only were all 3D platformers cut in the same mold, so were pretty much all 3rd person 3D games(including Nintendo's own).

For VirtuaFighter, it plays quite differently from the other offerings in the genre. Tekken, DoA, Toshiden etc all had noticeably distinct play mechanics not only from each other but also from VirtuaFighter. Even looking at StreetFighter II which was the defining fighting game for a while, once MortalKombat, SuperSmashBros and the like hit SF2's defining characteristics were gone. It no longer was the title that others followed.

Johnny-

Platform, RPG, Music, Adventure, Network RPG. That's a pretty impressive list.

With Miyamoto you have platformer, adventure, fighting, racing(F-Zero created an entire sub genre as did MarioKart arguably, although a case can be me made for RC Pro Am), shooter(SF), party games, communication games and strategy games. Who was it that had so much more diverse credits? Just because Miyamoto didn't make a dozen games in a particular genre doesn't mean he didn't make any

 

[V3]

For VirtuaFighter, it plays quite differently from the other offerings in the genre. Tekken, DoA, Toshiden etc all had noticeably distinct play mechanics not only from each other but also from VirtuaFighter. Even looking at StreetFighter II which was the defining fighting game for a while, once MortalKombat, SuperSmashBros and the like hit SF2's defining characteristics were gone. It no longer was the title that others followed.

Rockman play quite differently to Mario as well. If Mario is the defining of 2D scroller, VF is surely the defining of 3D fighter.

Mario hit and from that point forward, not only were all 3D platformers cut in the same mold, so were pretty much all 3rd person 3D games(including Nintendo's own).

??? You mean Rare's ? or do you mean how alike is Mario64 to Mario Sunshine ?

I like Mario, and I played most of the games alot. I must have went through the original SMB more than 10,000 times. As far as I am concern there is no game that play like it, except its sequel.

Other 2D scroller games were quite different from Mario, like other 3D fighting games are different from VF.

I am really curious, is there other Famicom games that play like Mario ? I must have missed it, please tell me what it is cause I want to play it.

 

[archie4oz]

I am really curious, is there other Famicom games that play like Mario ? I must have missed it, please tell me what it is cause I want to play it.

Well Megaman is about as close as I think you can get...

 

[Ozymandis]

Certainly not, but not due to if it is the best of breed or not. SuperMarioBros defined/created the 2D side scrolling genre and all those that followed it strayed very little from its course. Same with Mario64. Before Mario we had a number of '3D' platformers, all of them trying out their own unique spin on it(Crash, Sonic etc). Mario hit and from that point forward, not only were all 3D platformers cut in the same mold, so were pretty much all 3rd person 3D games(including Nintendo's own).

For VirtuaFighter, it plays quite differently from the other offerings in the genre. Tekken, DoA, Toshiden etc all had noticeably distinct play mechanics not only from each other but also from VirtuaFighter. Even looking at StreetFighter II which was the defining fighting game for a while, once MortalKombat, SuperSmashBros and the like hit SF2's defining characteristics were gone. It no longer was the title that others followed.

Many of the modern 3d platformers don't play like Mario64 either. Especially two of the biggest ones (Sonic Adventure and Crash Bandicoot), which play more similiarly to each other than to Mario.

I guess it depends on how you define "defining". But I bet if you ask fighting fans, probably 90% of them would name VF as the "defining 3d fighting game"

And I totally disagree about SSB and MK stealing Street Fighter's genre-defining position. Neither of those games has spawned many imitators, from what I've seen.

 

[Reznor007]

And I totally disagree about SSB and MK stealing Street Fighter's genre-defining position. Neither of those games has spawned many imitators, from what I've seen.

Well, MK spawned Time Killers, Blood Storm, War Gods, and probably a good share of others.

 

[BenSkywalker]

V3-

Rockman play quite differently to Mario as well. If Mario is the defining of 2D scroller

Megaman is a side scroller(SMB rip), has items you can acquire that aren't 'visible' in the typical sense(SMB rip), is uses platforms w/life or death elements involved(SMB rip). SMB created almost all of the mechanics of side scrolling games, I can't think of any side scrollers that don't utilize most of SMB's mechanics(control basis, challenge factor etc).

??? You mean Rare's ? or do you mean how alike is Mario64 to Mario Sunshine ?

Free roaming is what I mean. Prior to Mario all 3rd person '3D' games were built in a corridor style in terms of gameplay mechanics. Mario allowed people to run off in any direction they wanted to. Mario was the first 3rd person game to do this(and it is the reason why it blew people away).

Ozy-

Many of the modern 3d platformers don't play like Mario64 either. Especially two of the biggest ones (Sonic Adventure and Crash Bandicoot), which play more similiarly to each other than to Mario.

Compare Sonic Adventure to the Saturn Sonic title(can never remember the name of that one) or the current Crash game to the original. Ratchet&Clank, SlyCooper, Jak&Daxter, anything Rare and Blinx certainly follow in SM64's gameplay formula. They changed it up quite a bit, but they are very far removed from everything that came prior to SM64.

I guess it depends on how you define "defining". But I bet if you ask fighting fans, probably 90% of them would name VF as the "defining 3d fighting game"

90%? I think that Soul Calibur may be able to pull more then 10% of the vote.

And I totally disagree about SSB and MK stealing Street Fighter's genre-defining position. Neither of those games has spawned many imitators, from what I've seen.

Besides those Reznor listed for MK, I'd toss on KillerInstinct for Midway's offering. SmashBros pulled away genre defining status from SFII for a different reason- its ability to sell games. We are still seeing 'new' Capcom 2D fighters and based on the numbers I have seen, it appears that SmashBros outsells the last four or five Capcom 2D brawlers by a two to one margin at least(that's comparing to the last four or five combined). It's hard to retain genre defining when only ~20% of all the sales for your genre come from games that play like what you offer.

 

[Magnum PI]

there is a slashdot post

http://slashdot.org/articles/02/12/16/1735210.shtml?tid=127

 

[CaptainHowdy]

if you ask me what defined the 3d fighting game, I would have said One Must Fall.

 

[V3]

Megaman is a side scroller(SMB rip), has items you can acquire that aren't 'visible' in the typical sense(SMB rip), is uses platforms w/life or death elements involved(SMB rip). SMB created almost all of the mechanics of side scrolling games, I can't think of any side scrollers that don't utilize most of SMB's mechanics(control basis, challenge factor etc).

You've got to be kidding. Rockman has level segment that goes up and down as well as to the side. Items that aren't visible ? Rockman 1 up, is a Rockman head, place in some level, that you can see upon entering some segment of the level. It is certainly isn't hidden in SMB style 1 up mushroom. Rockman has healthbar as well as powerbar for different weapons, Enemies drop items to increase these as well. It has different bosses at the end to boot.

SMB control basis ? I hope you are not talking press left, to move your avatar left, press right move your avatar right. SMB has a run button, Rockman doesn't. Mario jump is different to Rockman jump. Rockman gain new powerups after defeating the bosses, Mario gain powerups, by finding hidden things in boxes.

Free roaming is what I mean. Prior to Mario all 3rd person '3D' games were built in a corridor style in terms of gameplay mechanics. Mario allowed people to run off in any direction they wanted to. Mario was the first 3rd person game to do this(and it is the reason why it blew people away).

Free roaming Vs Corridor ?, that's it ?

Mario responses with different terrain(type, angle, velocity) that his is on added with quirky Mario control is what seperate typical Mario from other games. And to exaggerate all these and make things easier for you, is super deformed Mario.

Like Miyamoto said before in an interview, Mario is a game for people who like to play around with joypad. All typical Mario games is about mastering joypad through hand to eye co-ordination.

Other platformer or other games, try to remove alot of these things in order to make games easier to play.

Mario elements aren't that great, if you do not have that underlying mechanics. And Rockman has different underlying mechanics to SMB. These underlying mechanics is what many games today lacked.

Maybe people don't appreciate them anymore

 

[BenSkywalker]

V3-

You were playing games prior to SMB weren't you? Side scrolling with platform elements tied in with the ability to shoot was not done prior to SMB. Sidecrolling may seem obvious now for 2D games, it wasn't back then.

SMB control basis ? I hope you are not talking press left, to move your avatar left, press right move your avatar right. SMB has a run button, Rockman doesn't. Mario jump is different to Rockman jump. Rockman gain new powerups after defeating the bosses, Mario gain powerups, by finding hidden things in boxes.

You are talking about altering things, not radical departure. I'd say the biggest difference between Mario and MegaMan is MM's reliance on shooting. Both games are sidescrollers where power ups are essential and platforming is essential.

Free roaming Vs Corridor ?, that's it ?

That's it.....? That shift was considered one of the most revolutionary leaps in gaming history. If you had print publications from the time, read back through them. The move from corridor(limited ability to move) versus free roaming was huge. Prior to SM64 '3D' games had 3D graphics, not real gameplay(utilizing physics to enhance gameplay).

Mario elements aren't that great, if you do not have that underlying mechanics. And Rockman has different underlying mechanics to SMB. These underlying mechanics is what many games today lacked.

I'd say you are looking at much higher level mechanics then I am. It is the core level mechanics that so many games borrow from Miyamoto's titles.

 

[V3]

You were playing games prior to SMB weren't you? Side scrolling with platform elements tied in with the ability to shoot was not done prior to SMB. Sidecrolling may seem obvious now for 2D games, it wasn't back then.

I remember something like Pitfall, being a side level things, that was on Atari. The other one was my fav for Atari, I think the title was Hero. It involved some shooting and blowing up wall. Then there is the Arcade, I remember playing quite abit of side scrolling game, like Kung-Fu.

You are talking about altering things, not radical departure. I'd say the biggest difference between Mario and MegaMan is MM's reliance on shooting. Both games are sidescrollers where power ups are essential and platforming is essential.

What radical departure did Tekken made from VF ?

That's it.....? That shift was considered one of the most revolutionary leaps in gaming history. If you had print publications from the time, read back through them. The move from corridor(limited ability to move) versus free roaming was huge. Prior to SM64 '3D' games had 3D graphics, not real gameplay(utilizing physics to enhance gameplay).

"not real gameplay(utilizing physics to enhance gameplay)" ?

We had free roaming in many 3D flight sim games for PC. Those games certainly aren't corridor type. Beside corridor games were spawned from those Wolfenstain and Doom. As far I as I know, Corridor style was more to do with hardware limitation at the time. They didn't have N64 before than you know.

I'd say you are looking at much higher level mechanics then I am. It is the core level mechanics that so many games borrow from Miyamoto's titles.

Like Miyamoto said, he didn't start with a core level mechanics. He created the underlying mechanic first, than create core level around that. Its too bad many games doesn't have the underlying mechanics to start with and just copy what they can see at the core level design.

What many people failed to copy is what seperates Miyamoto and his team from the rest.