What, no thread about the official Wii U release date and prices?

[TheLump]

Yes, but then that is not enthusiasm for Nintendo hardware per se but for Nintendo developers and their games.

Hence my earlier point that it'd probably be best if Nintendo ended up like Sega and became a publisher rather than a platform owner (then we could get Nintendo games on high-end hardware).



Actually the Kool-Aid drinking refers to people who (ignoring all the information we have) insist the Wii U will be able to compete (in terms of processing hardware) with the next gen machines from Sony and MS.

I wasn't aware of anyone doing that tbh. I might be wrong though.

I think alot of times we get a bit of a straw man argument going here. Sometimes there is actually no Nintendo 'fanboyz' saying these things, but its assumed that somewhere there will be so its ok to club Nintendo fans together and say they're being unrealistic/over optimistic.

Of course 720/PS4 will be more powerful. No one with an opposable thumb would argue that. But its innacurate/unfair to say "PS4 will be wipe the floor with WiiU, its a given" when we dont know the exact specs of either and even if we use the 'leaked/rumoured' WiiU & PS4 dev kit numbers its not like its a quantum leap between the two.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I honestly don't see the difference in a 'universal acheivments' system and what WiiU has (Devs are free to add them in if they want). They show up on your profile, just like Steam. What else do they need to do? (<---serious question here, not rhetorical)

For those that care, the ability to compare achievements with friends is important.

IMO it leads to more meaningful cheevs instead of "you completed level 1; have a medal". '

That's the difference between compulsory achievements and optional ones. If devs are required to put them in, they'll add them for arbitrary things if they don't care. But let's be honest - most devs follow trends and don't innovate spectacularly. A few will handle achievements with consideration but most will chuck them in as a checklist feature, and one with a psychological component that encourages people to play their game more. Nintendo's stance of a platform-wide system or individual developer systems isn't going to change that. It just means developers all reinventing the wheel and no Nintendo equivalent of gamerscores.

Or am I missing the point? (I grew up without all this gubbins, so I might be missing what all the fuss is about )

It's a feature that many core gamers like. It's absence means the Nintendo network is failing to provide a valued feature. For someone (haihoo) claiming Nintendo's network made Live and PSN look dated, this news knocks that view on the head. Nintendo's solution looks similar; certainly not way better. I'm not seeing what features Nintendo is advancing really compared to the market leader of Live.

 

[BRiT]

At best, the Nintendo Online Network is behind even the PlayStation Network. There is no way it's even comparable to XBox Live; Nintendo and PlayStation Network are both missing the cross-party chat functionality XBLive has had for years now.

Anyone who indicated Nintendo Online Network blows away either PSN or XBLive is nothing but a blind rabid Nintendo cheerleader.

 

[TheLump]

For those that care, the ability to compare achievements with friends is important.

That's the difference between compulsory achievements and optional ones. If devs are required to put them in, they'll add them for arbitrary things if they don't care. But let's be honest - most devs follow trends and don't innovate spectacularly. A few will handle achievements with consideration but most will chuck them in as a checklist feature, and one with a psychological component that encourages people to play their game more. Nintendo's stance of a platform-wide system or individual developer systems isn't going to change that. It just means developers all reinventing the wheel and no Nintendo equivalent of gamerscores.

I hardly think its reinventing the wheel. Developers just wont be able to include trophies which go towards a gamerscore. They'll just be in game.
(I also think they will show on your profile, although I cant confirm that but I'm sure I read somewhere in a translation.) Whats more, people will be able to actively see your progress in a game on Miiverse, through comments, screenshots, communities. The idea is you actually share your experience with others; whether its bragging, offering help to gamers who aren't as accomplished as you, showing screenshots of 'that cool thing you just did'.

Maybe thats the point. Could it be that Miiverse is a social way of sharing what you're playing/acheiving rather than just displaying a graphic of some logos/a score representing how good they are/what they've done. Maybe Nintendo thought that copying Live and having a 'gamerscore' or a trophy cabinet would be counter-conducive to a social gaming environment (which it seems they are aiming for whith Miiverse) where people discuss what they've done and help others do the same. Whether thats to your liking is obviously a matter of personal taste (not you personally, the royal 'you' ) but at the very least its a step sideways rather than back. Its an attempt at progression, advancing the idea of social/online gaming, and whether some people think it's is a step forward or not it can hardly be considered a step back.

It's a feature that many core gamers like. It's absence means the Nintendo network is failing to provide a valued feature.

Failing to provide a feature some people like and value. True. But if you'll allow me to play devils avocado here, maybe they are succeeding in providing a unique feature which others aren't: A social hub to share you're experience, instead of a trophy cabinet to show off with. Maybe some people will see more value in discussing what they are doing rather than showing what they have done. I'd wager some money that Nintendo's excuse for not including 'universal' trophies is along those lines

For someone (haihoo) claiming Nintendo's network made Live and PSN look dated, this news knocks that view on the head. Nintendo's solution looks similar; certainly not way better. I'm not seeing what features Nintendo is advancing really compared to the market leader of Live.

Again, I dont think it necessarily does. Maybe Haihoo doesn't value trophies that much and maybe he'll enjoy sharing his/her experience more socially. So maybe, for him/her, it is a progression from Live/PSN. Its entirely down to opinion and therefore impossible to prove either way. All we know for sure is they are providing something a little different.

Me personally? I'd like to have seen trophies displayed on profiles (and I still think they might be). But I'm happy Nintendo are trying a different tack.

 

[TheLump]

At best, the Nintendo Online Network is behind even the PlayStation Network. There is no way it's even comparable to XBox Live; Nintendo and PlayStation Network are both missing the cross-party chat functionality XBLive has had for years now.

Anyone who indicated Nintendo Online Network blows away either PSN or XBLive is nothing but a blind rabid Nintendo cheerleader.

Or they just dont agree with you.

Some people have different opinions. You can't say it is or isn't better than something, because you are only speaking for yourself.

I dont use cross-party chat and I dont particualrly care for gamerscores. I do like the idea of sending screenshots, discussing games in dedicated communities & helping people out so I'll probably get more value from Nintendo Network as I can't do those things readily on PSN/Live. Does that mean I'm wrong? No. It means I like different things than you.

Some will prefer Nintendo's approach, some will prefer Live. Some will prefer PSN. No one is right or wrong.

I'd also like you to elaborate on why you think its "at best, behind PSN" if you dont mind. Not because I'm saying you're wrong, but because this is a forum and the point is to discuss. Maybe you have a valid point; I don't know though because you havn't given any reason.

 

[BRiT]

Simply read any of Shifty Geezer's posts to see why it's behind PSN.

To add to that, there is no platform-wide solution. When there is no platform-wide solution, what you end up with is a horribly frustrating user experience.

This means anything of this sort is up to the individual developer/publisher. There is no unified consistent user experience in this regard. It will result in very disjoint experience if the developers/publishers even bother with it.

This is exactly what happened on the PSN in regards to chat/voice features. Some well known games had absolutely no game-chat or game chat that absolutely horrible despite being large titles such as Borderlands 1 (as exhibited here in the GearBox Forums).

 

[TheLump]

Simply read any of Shifty Geezer's posts to see why it's behind PSN.

To add to that, there is no platform-wide solution. When there is no platform-wide solution, what you end up with is a horribly frustrating user experience.

This means anything of this sort is up to the individual developer/publisher. There is no unified consistent user experience in this regard. It will result in very disjoint experience if the developers/publishers even bother with it.

This is exactly what happened on the PSN in regards to chat/voice features. Some well known games had absolutely no game-chat or game chat that absolutely horrible despite being large titles such as Borderlands 1 (as exhibited here in the GearBox Forums).

Ok so you agree with what Shifty is saying and in your opinion it will be behind PSN (whatever that actually means). Thats more accurately what you're saying.

And about it being disjointed - maybe so. We'll see I suppose. But my guess is that chat/social/online stuff will be done mainly through Miiverse which is a system level feature. So it might not be disjointed at all. It should be the same in all games.

 

[swaaye]

I thought this crazy thread was about the hardware?

 

[Rodéric]

I thought this crazy thread was about the hardware?

Noone cares about hardware anymore, software is the new hardware !

 

[TheLump]

I thought this crazy thread was about the hardware?

Sorry, we've been dragged into miiverse/NN debate. Erm... Gigabytes!


Actually some more "leaked" Wii u specs are out. Almost believable until they mention 14nm process

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Me personally? I'd like to have seen trophies displayed on profiles (and I still think they might be). But I'm happy Nintendo are trying a different tack.

You've some good points in there that I agree with. A change in approach to online gaming to make it more social and less competitive is a step in the right direction IMO. I don't think that's what haihoo was getting at, but as (s)he never explained themselves (the Communication Age we live in, where people write ceaselessly about nothing in particular), you may just be finding a good excuse. It's still a daft move though if Nintendo want to sell consoles. Whenever you see something that can be improved in your opinion (royal you), if it's a dramatic departure from what a lot of the market expects, provide the alternative. In the case of computing and software, that's generally pretty easy to do. Nintendo could have done everything they want to do and still add cross-game chat and trophy support. The lack of these features gives existing HD console owners less reason to consider switching, reducing Nintendo's potential market. There's being independently minded, and then there's being naive, and Nintendo follow the latter IMO. It's worked well for them sometimes, but also against them, and I can't see this ignorance of the current online gaming market working in their favour.

I guess they look at the existing online 'community' and see it as smack-talk, racism, sexism, and generally not all in the Nintendo vein. Understandable and if they want to try to fix that, I'm all in favour. I think they could manage it in better ways. eg. system-wide chat with public voting on player value, perhaps. Bigots would get downrated and automatically silenced in games. Helpful people would get uprated. You could even tie that into game access, so highly rated players in community rating get preferential treatment when trying to join games over scuzzy players. That's off the top of my head. If given a working team some months to design a publicly minded, fully featured system, I'm sure something very workable could be achieved rather than just dropping key features. As it is, devs wanting in-game chat, necessary in team-based shooters, will all be reinventing the wheel every time and I expect a PSN type disaster. One can hardly recommend Wii U to core gamers who like their chat as an insta-buy. It's very much a wait-and-see product, which isn't what you want when launching a new platform.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I thought this crazy thread was about the hardware?

Yep. Cleaned up now though.

 

[(((interference)))]

I wasn't aware of anyone doing that tbh. I might be wrong though.

I think alot of times we get a bit of a straw man argument going here. Sometimes there is actually no Nintendo 'fanboyz' saying these things, but its assumed that somewhere there will be so its ok to club Nintendo fans together and say they're being unrealistic/over optimistic.

Of course 720/PS4 will be more powerful. No one with an opposable thumb would argue that. But its innacurate/unfair to say "PS4 will be wipe the floor with WiiU, its a given" when we dont know the exact specs of either and even if we use the 'leaked/rumoured' WiiU & PS4 dev kit numbers its not like its a quantum leap between the two.

Well, my 'kool aid drinking' comment was in response to this one by Rangers:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1678200&postcount=3094

And he said that because of comments like these:

If MS and Sony plan to launch in 2013, I simply don't believe they will be coming with monster consoles. Probably more of a stop-gap product. WiiU made its appearance a year ago. Nintendo has had the time to attract 3rd party developers, drip info to the public, work on their games to provide a decent launch.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1678172&postcount=3090

from what Sony recently said, and the new rumors about MS, I definitely
think they are taking the Nintendo approach. They'll make the consoles
slightly more powerful than the WiiU in the eyes of fans, but in reality, the power will go unused

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1677974&postcount=3070

And I think it is fair to say that the 720 at least will wipe the floor with the Wii U, it'll definitely be a generational leap over it. Though of course a generational leap from this gen to next gen is not going to be as pronounced as it was from last gen to this gen.

 

[TheLump]

..........As it is, devs wanting in-game chat, necessary in team-based shooters, will all be reinventing the wheel every time and I expect a PSN type disaster. One can hardly recommend Wii U to core gamers who like their chat as an insta-buy. It's very much a wait-and-see product, which isn't what you want when launching a new platform.

Thanks for the detailed response. I really do see your point, and I'm not for a second implying that Nintendo has made the right choice - just that they have a reaosn for their choice and only time will tell whether that works out for them. They've attempted something different, and it's impossible to say whether it provides a better/worse experience than oher systems until we've used it and gotten to know it's ins and outs. They've left a couple things out which competitors provide, but added some things in which competitors don't.

I agree there will be lots of people who are used to what they have now, and wont be willing to switch to NN/Miiverse because its missing a Gamerscore-esque system. Maybe not so much for the cross-game/party chat as thats' not something thats put too many people off PSN imo (seems to be pretty popular without that feature ) And in any case to me it seems like something Nintendo would see the value in and are probably considering, they're just not experienced enough to get something like that off the ground right away. I'd expect this thing to grow and evolve with features being added as they go (see mobile app, multi-platform access to miiverse, - lets just hope what is there from day one is enough to entice the early adopters.

Without wanting to be overly positive about Nintendo (I wouldn't dare!), for their first stab at a full online system I'm pretty impressed. Bar a couple of features which some will miss & others will consider niche, they've got a pretty good thing lined up assuming it all works. Taken Sony 7 years and they still haven't caught up with Live in terms of features: Nintendo may have gotten pretty close at the first attempt, whilst still providing a fresh take on the medium*...




*WARNING: Your opinion may vary

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I agree there will be lots of people who are used to what they have now, and wont be willing to switch to NN/Miiverse because its missing a Gamerscore-esque system. Maybe not so much for the cross-game/party chat as thats' not something thats put too many people off PSN imo (seems to be pretty popular without that feature ).

Not at all. This has pissed off a lot of PS3 gamers. We bought into PS3 with the expectation and implication, if never explicit promise, that PSN would get cross-game chat. The lack of CGC in PSN on PS4 would be a serious reason to avoid the platform in future, but Vita shows Sony have realised this and will certainly be featuring it in PSN.

I'd expect this thing to grow and evolve with features being added as they go (see mobile app, multi-platform access to miiverse, - lets just hope what is there from day one is enough to entice the early adopters.

They've had years to observe and develop their system. If thye paid attention, they'd ahve learnt the things core gamers value in an online system and been able to cater to them. There's no reason at all for Nintendo to start from scratch and then grow their system; design the features up front and then implement them. A lack of features means a lack of sales which devalues investment in the box in the future, and as Sony shows, a faith that a feature might appear can go unrewarded.

The problem here is Nintendo operate in isolation as if competition doesn't exist. It does, and they are fighting for the same customers. The can improve their chances by meeting the competition and adding to it, instead of hoping to sidestep them.

 

[Arwin]

Not at all. This has pissed off a lot of PS3 gamers. We bought into PS3 with the expectation and implication, if never explicit promise, that PSN would get cross-game chat. The lack of CGC in PSN on PS4 would be a serious reason to avoid the platform in future, but Vita shows Sony have realised this and will certainly be featuring it in PSN.

Yeah, seems likely. I was pleasantly surprised to see that Call of Duty (just out for Vita) supports starting both a public and a private online match from the Vita's Party app. That said, I'm not sure how many games currently support that, and if it is actually mandatory.

As for Nintendo, they're building on the Wii. So they believe they can get away with anything that is an improvement over that, as the Wii sold, despite not having some of the features that some of us deem 'essential' (and to be honest, for me with my limited online gaming, and having so few online friends that do, party chat and such isn't actually very relevant).

But at the same time it is very clear that the Wii U won't replace any of the other consoles. It will just replace the Wii, and I don't have one - I did borrow one, and wasn't convinced. So it will be interesting to see if Nintendo can come up with anything that changes that.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

For me personally, the value of party chat lies in be able to interact with friends between games. This was important on PS3 because we struggled with setting up some online games in some cases, and spent ages resetting PS3's and operating in the dark. If forming parties and joining games just worked, that'd be less of an issue. But there's also the case of wanting to talk with someone in a game to invite them to another game. Often the in game message would be missed. There needs to be a mechanism to dial someone up and get talking without interrupting the game chat. Some would argue that's what phone's are for but phone's don't typically allow party chat. If I'm in a game and someone comes online and we might play together, I want to be able to say, "I'll just be 5 minutes" or somesuch. And then form parties and play games together. There are lots of social aspects that could be improved upon. The DNA of online has come from solo players on PC, so it's understandable that it has quite a lot of evolving to do to become a more sociable experience (including managing cultural aspect that keep outsiders from getting involved). Nintendo's choice may see improvements in Live and PSN as they learn, but it's sad that Nintendo aren't broadening the whole experience in a more inviting way. It's kinda like 'them and us' when it comes to attracting core games, like Wii.

 

[Arwin]

Yes! And for the record, when I was talking about the value of party chat I meant for me personally - I definitely see the value in party chat.

 

[TheLump]

And I think it is fair to say that the 720 at least will wipe the floor with the Wii U, it'll definitely be a generational leap over it. Though of course a generational leap from this gen to next gen is not going to be as pronounced as it was from last gen to this gen.

Depends what "wipe the floor" means. I'd say that 360 can wipe the floor with Wii graphically. Thats a fair comment. On paper it was a massive difference (21x as much RAM, 11x higher memory bandwidth, HD vs SD output, Tri-Core 3.2GHz vs 729mhz single core CPU and the rest) and in real world use it can render graphics an order of magnitude more capably than Wii. For all intents and purposes it was a generational gap between the two. "Floor, meet mop; for you have been wiped."

Will 720 wipe the floor with WiiU on paper? Well from what we've heard in rumours/leaks it'll be a sizeable difference (for example 0.6 Tflops vs 1.5 - 2 Tflops is huge numerically) It'll have more physical processing cores (although i doubt at much higher clocks if theres that many), at least 4x as much RAM (maybe 8x but I suspect at tonne will be for Windows 8) So nowhere near as much of a difference as last gen on a purley numbers basis - but still a notable gap between the two.

Will 720 wipe the floor with WiiU in the real world? Well, not in the same way 360 could vs Wii thats for sure. Not only do diminishing returns come into play, but there simply isn't as much of a difference between the two as there was last gen. Sure 720 will comfortably outpace WiiU (and probably PS4) in every area processing wise, but I'm not so sure we'll see a 'generational' difference as with last gen, even in the best case scenario when a 1st party dev really pushes it to its limits (and judging by how some big developers have faired this gen, and how big budget games have killed studios - that won't be too common.)


Imo even the "next gen" demos we've seen (1313 etc, the UE4 tech demo) weren't that much more visually impressive next to current gen offerings such as Uncharted 3 or Halo 4, and they were running on insane rigs which would never be affordable for MS/Sony to package into a console within the next year. They certainly weren't impressive enough for me that I'd go out and buy new hardware to experience it...(not that I need to, my PC will suffice . )

So yeah, WiiU will clearly be bottom of the pile spec wise and benchmark wise. But will the other two be leagues ahead in terms of what we actually play on them? I really don't think so.

 

[TheLump]

For me personally, the value of party chat lies in be able to interact with friends between games. This was important on PS3 because we struggled with setting up some online games in some cases, and spent ages resetting PS3's and operating in the dark. If forming parties and joining games just worked, that'd be less of an issue. But there's also the case of wanting to talk with someone in a game to invite them to another game. Often the in game message would be missed. There needs to be a mechanism to dial someone up and get talking without interrupting the game chat. Some would argue that's what phone's are for but phone's don't typically allow party chat. If I'm in a game and someone comes online and we might play together, I want to be able to say, "I'll just be 5 minutes" or somesuch. And then form parties and play games together. There are lots of social aspects that could be improved upon. The DNA of online has come from solo players on PC, so it's understandable that it has quite a lot of evolving to do to become a more sociable experience (including managing cultural aspect that keep outsiders from getting involved). Nintendo's choice may see improvements in Live and PSN as they learn, but it's sad that Nintendo aren't broadening the whole experience in a more inviting way. It's kinda like 'them and us' when it comes to attracting core games, like Wii.

My point before wasn't that PSN users didnt want it, but that there are millions of PSN users who use PSN regardless. I've never heard that used as a reason for not buying a PS3, for example.

About interacting with friends between games - This is exactly why I see it being implemented in WiiU. Nintendo want people to be talking about games, in between playing games. Miiverse accomplishes this in every way in terms of video chat, text/pic chat, forums, communities and screenshots. The onyl way it doesn't accomplish this is party voice chat. My guess is they simply ran out of time to get this feature from day one and somthing will come along with an update. They've pretty openly said that about a few features. Might be inexcusable for some, but they have to prioritise and when buidling an online system from scratch, that probably went further down the queue.