What, no thread about the official Wii U release date and prices?

[Shifty Geezer]

The quality of music is determined by the emotional response of the person or persons listening to it. So there is no way you can claim that the music Frank Sinatra performed is higher quality than the music Justin Bieber performs.

Although I agree with your sentiments, I think we can safely say Justin Bieber isn't anything like the quality of Sinatra, if not least because he can't sing and uses computers to fix his inabilities. Qualities can be measured, even if tastes are subjective and have no accounting.

 

[Rangers]

Too be fair, only teen girls like Bieber, he's a different animal to Sinatra. As well, hate to say this but I suspect I'd be less bored if i had to listen to one Bieber album straight through then the same for Sinatra.

New record for OT?

 

[Arwin]

The quality of music is determined by the emotional response of the person or persons listening to it. So there is no way you can claim that the music Frank Sinatra performed is higher quality than the music Justin Bieber performs.

Actually, the quality of music is defined by whomever decides what criteria to use to want to describe relative qualities of two pieces of music. You've just picked emotional response, and perhaps imply a quantity of people and/or the level at which they respond. Just one of a tonne of options, basically.

It sounds like you try to make the claim that Journey is more "art" than something like CoD:MW3. Is that just based on the visual style of those games or do you take into account the game mechanics and other aspects as well?

From a historical perspective, we're too close to the material to determine anything long-term, but I can say that personally I do believe Journey to be more artistic 'as a whole' than MW

 

[tuna]

Although I agree with your sentiments, I think we can safely say Justin Bieber isn't anything like the quality of Sinatra, if not least because he can't sing and uses computers to fix his inabilities. Qualities can be measured, even if tastes are subjective and have no accounting.

There are shitloads of recordings of Bieber singing without computer alterations to his voice.

But anyway is your quality criteria for music how well the singer hits the pitch he/she "should" hit?

 

[tuna]

Actually, the quality of music is defined by whomever decides what criteria to use to want to describe relative qualities of two pieces of music. You've just picked emotional response, and perhaps imply a quantity of people and/or the level at which they respond. Just one of a tonne of options, basically.

Ok, what can you name some other quality criteria or aspects?

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

I also think the naysayers are missing another point - It's not just that powerful consoles merely enable better graphics, but also richer experiences thanks to better (and more) AI, more complex physics, more realistic simulations, bigger and more seamless gameworlds etc.

This.

And it even goes beyond just games as MS and Sony continue their fight for control of the living room, whether playing CoD or Minecraft or watching the Presidential debates.

The more powerful the hardware, the greater the opportunities. I would think that, at least, would be clearly evident to everyone.

And yes, I'd wager a large number if not the majority of Wii users have moved on to PS360s. And the main selling point for the Wii - Parents nostalgia for Mario, Zelda and the like won't exist for the Wii U.

Because the "Wii Children", the children of those parents mentioned above are playing CoD and Madden on their PS360s right now, they're not going to switch to the Wii U to do the same thing and they're not old enough yet (except maybe those in West Virginia) to have children of their own to buy consoles for.

In short (too late), I foresee a rather large generational gap that is going to create issues for the Wii U that provided great momentum for the Wii.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There are shitloads of recordings of Bieber singing without computer alterations to his voice.

But anyway is your quality criteria for music how well the singer hits the pitch he/she "should" hit?

You can measure any quality aspect. Pitch accuracy is one technical measure. Timing is another. Vocal strength allowing for volume without losing pitch accuracy or tone is another. There are also subjective measures like tonal qualities, whether someone likes a particular voice or not.

What you are referring to with 'quality' is a generalised measure of whether people like it or not (which is the main thing), but that's not technical a quality measure. Like people leaving a movie and talking among themselves saying, "that was great," without actually analysing it, and then after a while considering the same movie and thinking, "actually it was okay, but not all that wonderful now I think about it." On qualitative analysis it may fail badly, but still be entertaining. Some content is supremely entertaining due to its lack of quality - it's so bad it's good.

What Nesh is talking about is critically reviewed titles not gaining commercial success or popularity. I don't think that is measured entirely on quality but other subjective considerations, although quality (considered factors like graphical fidelity, control accuracy, structure and execution) will factor to some degree. You don't get a 90% metacritic score without hitting a lot of quality bars. However, we all know that people don't buy solely on quality and marketing counts for a great deal. Okami is a critically acclaimed game that scores a lot of quality points in different areas, but when it launched in the UK it lost out to Little Britain, a game that failed on many quality metrics. Little Britain was a cash-in on a known franchise, and people like to buy known over unknowns, which is why marketeers go to such lengths to establish brands.

I'm not sure where this is going regards topic though.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The more powerful the hardware, the greater the opportunities. I would think that, at least, would be clearly evident to everyone.

I don't disagree, but a lot of non-graphics functions can be served with current gen hardware perfectly fine. Maybe going forwards we'll need high-end or custom hardware for viewing the new streaming codecs, but at the moment the only really taxing function for the consoles will be games. Possibly image recognition will become an important feature. I'm not seeing any non-gaming task on next gen PS and XB that Wii U couldn't handle regards entertainment, save some niches maybe (4k and 3D movie playback).

 

[babybumb]

http://ir.take2games.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=86428&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1751693&highlight=

To not have 20m selling game on the most expensive and newest platform.. this is really badnews for Wii U 3rd party ecosystem future outside casual gaming. Sony and MS might not even need new consoles to take on Wii U when the content isnt there

 

[rekator]

People forgot also that the more expensive size of a AAA game is the marketing part, and it's an obligation if you want to sell Millions…

 

[ERP]

People forgot also that the more expensive size of a AAA game is the marketing part, and it's an obligation if you want to sell Millions…

Marketing is certainly a significant cost, but it's tiny compared to paying a big team.
I worked on a 300 person team 5 years ago, at the time is was considered massive, 300 people is not all that uncommon anymore with big multiplatform games.
Most internally discussed budgets don't include marketing anyway, it's usually accounted separately.

You take 300 people pay them say $150K a year (on the low side including overhead which literally doubles base salaries) your burn rate is almost $4M a month, before you start recording and paying voice actors, motion capture, licensing music etc etc etc.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

http://ir.take2games.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=86428&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1751693&highlight=

To not have 20m selling game on the most expensive and newest platform.. this is really badnews for Wii U 3rd party ecosystem future outside casual gaming. Sony and MS might not even need new consoles to take on Wii U when the content isnt there

Of course we don't know if this is Nintendo's fault for flubbing the Wii U launch by not supplying hardware to Rockstar or if Rockstar just decided it wasn't a market pursuing (as we discussed earlier about what happens to the PS4 if Sony loses its install base and makes development expensive, costly, and lengthy).

Or, the other option, is that like some of the other late gen titles that are being released over the next couple of months if the developers just decided to prioritize what the systems they knew and were comfortable with and will provide Wii U with a "me-too" version some months down the road.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

Marketing is certainly a significant cost, but it's tiny compared to paying a big team.
I worked on a 300 person team 5 years ago, at the time is was considered massive, 300 people is not all that uncommon anymore with big multiplatform games.
Most internally discussed budgets don't include marketing anyway, it's usually accounted separately.

And I know he said AAA games, but beyond that, what games have huge marketing campaigns other than games that everybody knows will already sell millions? I rarely see any number of ads (just a few scattered here and there) for games that aren't called CoD or MW or Madden, Assassin's Creed, etc.

Borderlands 2 is getting a much bigger push than Borderlands did, but that's only due to the success of the original. Dead Island was a success and other than an internet cinematic trailer, really didn't have substantial marketing. At least not that I was exposed to.

Now maybe you don't consider Borderlands or Dead Island to be AAA games, but doesn't that make the point moot then? If publishers aren't spending huge marketing dollars on anything other than known AAA games anyway?

 

[Rodéric]

My experience on AAA is more like 100 persons for 1-3 years depending on the franchise (or lack of), with salaries more around 100k$ inc. taxes. So more like 1M$/month. (Developers & Artists only.)

 

[Grall]

Wonder what Sony is up to in dev costs for Last Guardian by now...

 

[ERP]

My experience on AAA is more like 100 persons for 1-3 years depending on the franchise (or lack of), with salaries more around 100k$ inc. taxes. So more like 1M$/month. (Developers & Artists only.)

That's likely without overhead, in CA in particular you can look to double base salary with overhead (medical, 401K, taxes, office space etc).
But I would agree 100 person team is still more common. But those 300 person teams are still out there, I was talking to someone recently who said their team was significantly bigger than that.

Unfortunately if your employer is very sensitive to dates and things start to slip the usual response is to increase headcount to resolve the issue. Apparently no one in an executive position at game publishers has ever read "The Mythical Man Month".

EA is rumored to have spent $300M on development of Star Wars the old republic.
That game certainly shouldn't have cost that, but you get there by running late and adding people to fix the problem.

 

[ban25]

That's likely without overhead, in CA in particular you can look to double base salary with overhead (medical, 401K, taxes, office space etc).
But I would agree 100 person team is still more common. But those 300 person teams are still out there, I was talking to someone recently who said their team was significantly bigger than that.

Unfortunately if your employer is very sensitive to dates and things start to slip the usual response is to increase headcount to resolve the issue. Apparently no one in an executive position at game publishers has ever read "The Mythical Man Month".

EA is rumored to have spent $300M on development of Star Wars the old republic.
That game certainly shouldn't have cost that, but you get there by running late and adding people to fix the problem.

In many cases, a good chunk of the 300 might be offshore contractors (especially for art), but yeah, I have seen teams with that many on-site staff. For what it's worth, the large companies (Microsoft, Activision, EA, etc.) have gotten very good at wielding such large teams effectively -- I have often marveled at how inefficient some small startups (~30 person companies) can be. Of course, there are diminishing returns as you scale...it's most important to identify the appropriate scale up points (i.e. don't go into production until asset pipelines and tool chains are in place, etc.).

 

[Rodéric]

That's likely without overhead, in CA in particular you can look to double base salary with overhead (medical, 401K, taxes, office space etc).
But I would agree 100 person team is still more common. But those 300 person teams are still out there, I was talking to someone recently who said their team was significantly bigger than that.

Unfortunately if your employer is very sensitive to dates and things start to slip the usual response is to increase headcount to resolve the issue. Apparently no one in an executive position at game publishers has ever read "The Mythical Man Month".

EA is rumored to have spent $300M on development of Star Wars the old republic.
That game certainly shouldn't have cost that, but you get there by running late and adding people to fix the problem.

I did take overhead into account.
I didn't want people to equate AAA title to 300 people for 4M$/month automatically.

 

[Rangers]

Wii U unboxing by Iwata

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECqpc6Ses4s

Looks pretty sexy tbh.

I think supposedly there is an unboxing embargo ending today, IGN and others will be doing them.

It nears for sure.

Edit: IGN http://www.ign.com/videos/2012/11/07/wii-u-unboxing

Comes with an HDMI cable! F U SONY AND MICROSOFT

Although, by now most people probably have them laying around, which didn't for PS3 and 360, so just when they're finally included, the need is not dire. Still good though.

 

[Grall]

DAAM, Iwata's stiff! Can't he like...loosen up a bit? It looks like he forgot to take out the clothes hanger before he put on the jacket of his suit for chrissakes!

Also, I SO wanted to check out that video...but I had to stop. I don't want to pollute my mind with impressions before the console is released. I'm feeling like a kid at christmastime, it's totally ridiculous...

Yes, I for one am really looking forwards to the wuu. It's gonna be great, I've decided.