What do you think about the killzone trailer?

[Laa-Yosh]

Is all rendering done at low resolution before the absolute final cut of the CG piece?

No, everything is done with full settings usually... In the begining, when not every element has been completed yet, it's obviously not as complex as the final

CG is an iterative process. You can't see everything if you don't render it out, so most studios concentrate on building a production pipeline that allows very quick turnarounds. Most artists - from animators to lighters - should be able to send out their work to the renderfarm when they go home, and then come back the next day to see the completed renders. This allows them to tweak every detail again and again, until the final deadline.

This is also the reason why raytracing isn't heavily used yet - with the usual scene complexity, it wouldn't allow an overnight render for a few seconds of animation. Its use is usually limited to ambient occlusion (very soft shadows) and reflection occlusion (to create better reflections with simple cube- or spherical mapped enviroment maps), although some studios do try global illumination from time to time (but most of the times they decide never to do it again

Saaay what??

Check the #3 or #4 DVD, I recall that it's been on one of these...

 

[AlNom]

Ah... I see. Thanks for the insight into the production process. Interesting. (Sounds like fun!)

One more question: Are the render farms updated often (every 1 to 2 years)?

 

[zidane1strife]

Sebastian Downie says:

"Trust me on this. You will be pleasantly surprised."

When referring to Killzone PlayStation 3. What could he mean? We'll soon find out...

Side by side comparison of the same vid realtime vs concept. Showing it holds up quite well to it.

Axis did it, with all assets created by them, but in a close cooperation with Guerilla (for example the developers did the directing on the movie and kept asking for changes until the last few days).
Assets weren't done to any spec either, although the source models used for the normal map extraction could be pretty similar to these.

You sure the concept video wasn't made to spec? Some of the textures, cloth animation and effects certainly seem to've been kept close and parts within the realm of what's been shown to be achievable in realtime(ground textures for example in some pics do look below the best that's been seen in realtime, and the environment overall doesn't seem outside what's been shown already.). The geometry and some of the textures of the characters and the quality of the lighting(lighting already equaled in the latest gundam vid, assuming that's realtime.), along with the quantity of things going on was what made it impressive. Had this not been the case we'd have not even argued with x360 fans about GoW(and the old build, btw. which in the old trailer showed problems that are now gone in the latest.) comparisons, we'd have instead laughed at the few who dared while the rest of the fans kept dmg control(gameplay>gphx).

Things like skin textures, and some of the cloth textures may be pushing the limits, and may not necessary be matched. The other question is character geometry lvls(we've already seen ps3 characters've been to be very high poly, 60k for hair simulations, and 300k for the lair dragons, iirc, the hair said to be at 60fps and the latter, it's factor 5, likely to be 60fps too.)

As for feasibility, again I must repeat myself:

60fps in alpha. Cloud's clothing animation/physics is also more impressive than the mostly static(minus a few jackets here or there, iirc.) killzone clothing. His clothing deforms seemingly in response to movement and some sort of ambient wind, from pants to shirt. Halve the framerate double the possible detail on alpha. Individual eyebrows and eye lashes, details that can barely be seen clearly at this distance with this rez, become clear in the beyond 1080 high rez pic link provided. Final kits increase the detail even more still, all this whilst considering that this is first gen software.... and further knowledge especially of something like the cell should provide even more performance.

http://i.afterdawn.com/news/SQUARE-ENIX-FINAL-FANTASY-V.jpg

If sometime during this gen killzone's not matched, the difference will not be anything significant, judging from the other s/w that's been shown.

 

[one]

Didn’t the whole axis animation rumour come about because some of the killzone stuff is on there web site?

http://www.axisanimation.com/reel_game_killz_intro.htm

But as they plainly say its for the original killzone on the ps2.

I voted for sped up, not going to look the same – i dont think it will be as fluid.

What I find funny is, the KZ PS2 trailer by Axis has more apparent "prerenderedness" such as global illumination than the KZ PS3 trailer... at least, the creator of the KZ PS3 trailer seems to have saved something. Why? I don't know

 

[Laa-Yosh]

What I find funny is, the KZ PS2 trailer by Axis has more apparent "prerenderedness" such as global illumination than the KZ PS3 trailer... at least, the creator of the KZ PS3 trailer seems to have saved something. Why? I don't know

There is GI in the KZ trailer, that's one of the reasons why they've used Lightwave to render it.

 

[weaksauce]

I don't know man, maybe your right. You think they'll answer if I email them?
I still think it will look the same though.
And I still don't really see the point of axis making the video, in the way it was.

Also, if they are going to try to make it as the video... Then why are they doing different models? I mean, they might think in the beginning ps3 can handle these models, and after a time they realise it cant and lower it, right?
But now they don't have the game assets in the video, so they're making double?
I mean that if guerilla made the video, they wouldn't have to make the models again for the game.
Or I don't know.

http://www.ps3station.com/pictures/killzone-8.jpg
Look at the weapon on the ground for example, it doesn't look as detailed as the one you're holding in. And some parts of the car, like the front, look very "gamish".
And there's lot of bumpmapping.

http://www.ps3station.com/pictures/killzone-9.jpg
The textures aren't that great, they could probably have had better quality on it right? And they don't seem to use that much AA, it still quite jaggie.
You have any idea why everything looks so "spotted"? Look at his bag for instance, or the arm in this pic:
http://www.ps3station.com/pictures/killzone-3.jpg
Also, the shoulder texture looks more like crap.

Sony said it was gameplay, you've probably seen the video. It's obvious it's not though, but they're denying it was CGI.

 

[Fast]

Sebastian Downie says:

"Trust me on this. You will be pleasantly surprised."

When referring to Killzone PlayStation 3. What could he mean? We'll soon find out...

What a cocktease.

I wonder if we'll see something in the coming months (thinking of PlayStation Conference) or if we'll have to wait for E3?

 

[weaksauce]

What a cocktease.

I wonder if we'll see something in the coming months (thinking of PlayStation Conference) or if we'll have to wait for E3?

CES ís on January 4th. Should be something big.

 

[dukmahsik]

what impressed me was not the gfx but the fluidity of the vid

 

[swanlee]

Looks totally scripted and non real time CGI. I bet my house it will not look or more importanly move like the E3 trailer. The best thing about the trailer was the animation and movements, They will not get to this level on the PS3. Sony is a lying hype machiene and until I see it running real time on a REAL PS3 i will not beleive anything they present.

 

[Qroach]

I fully predict that when real footage comes out, certain sony fans will scream about how amazing it looks despite the fact it's not close to the oriignal rendered video. These people will quickly forget what the original video looked like and claim that its extremly close.

Someone in this thread stated the most obvious thing. look at that killzone video and then look at the actual footage from other PS3 games. Not a single game that was actually shown running in real time, looks anywhere close to the killzone video. That shoudl be telling of what to expect or if it's "real-time"...

 

[Karamazov]

that CGI render has certainly already killed killzone 2, even if it will look good, that's sad.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Many flaws

I'm not looking for a discussion really, just to see what you think.

Personally, I think it was sped up, and will look the same. Maybe they won't have as much AA and such but overall it will look the same.

Here are some high res screens btw:
http://www.ps3station.com/preview_1/Killzone-2-PS3-working-Title.htm

There are many flaws in Killzone trailer such as textures, shadows, lighting, draw-distance, same colors, dull and simple skin of characters, simple buildings, so I do not know why many do not believe real version will be better. Probably it was "sped up" because of low bandwidth for dev-kits.

 

[Qroach]

There are many flaws in Killzone trailer such as textures, shadows, lighting, draw-distance, same colors, dull and simple skin of characters, simple buildings, so I do not know why many do not believe real version will be better. Probably it was "sped up" because of low bandwidth for dev-kits.

All of that can be explained by:

a) design choice
b) render time/deadline

This was CG for a promo video. Not a pixar studios animation. Most of what you are saying comes down to your personal opinion on how it looked, nothing factual. It wasn't sped up, it was CG, why is that so hard to understand for you?

 

[Qroach]

Also, the smoke in this video looks like Hyper voxels ( a feature included in lightwave).

 

[seismologist]

Final version will come close but I'm sure people will be ready to nitpick over the details claiming that Sony lied even though
It's already been stated that it's a target render to spec.

 

[dukmahsik]

Final version will come close but I'm sure people will be ready to nitpick over the details claiming that Sony lied even though
It's already been stated that it's a target render to spec.

give it up sony did lie about it, watch the G4 TV E3 special

 

[Mmmkay]

give it up sony did lie about it, watch the G4 TV E3 special

Ah, that'll be my cue then...

The infamous G4TV Jack Tretton interview was a misquote which has only been perpetuated through internet blogs and forums.

G4TV clip
Before Jack is asked the question about the authenticity of the Killzone trailer he is asked about I-8:

Q
"..The Ratchet and Clank guys have this interesting sort of FPS that sorta looks like a mix between half-life 2, call of duty. Tell me something where'd the sorta idea you know, putting a team like Insomniac who're used to doing these almost you know kiddie games onto something that looks very mature. What was the decision behind that?"

A
"Well, Ted Price is absolutely a genius and his team over there's done an incredible job...

..I guess the little known secret is that's the type of game that Ted's always wanted to do..."

Jack is then asked the infamous Killzone question to which he replies:

"It's definitely real, I guess we're pretty good at keeping secrets, because the dev kits were out there. The dev kits are very intuitive so people did some incredible things, and that's one thing that Ted wanted to make sure that everybody understood. That is real gameplay everybody is seeing out there"

Jack's conducting a lesson in PR 101: If you don't want to answer the question (i.e. Killzone = Real?) you instead ignore the question and continue answering something different. In this case he was clearly talking about how I-8 was definitely real time. Citing Ted's name made him the very subject of Jack Tretton's 'it's definitely real' reply.

The problem at the time was that we're seeing Killzone footage being shown in our faces, but Jack and the interviewer are sat facing each other in a dead studio. We think he's describing the Killzone footage [we're seeing] as real but he's not and can't even see that it's being played to the viewer.

Voted: CGi, not going to look the same

 

[dukmahsik]

Ah, that'll be my cue then...

The infamous G4TV Jack Tretton interview was a misquote which has only been perpetuated through internet blogs and forums.

G4TV clip
Before Jack is asked the question about the authenticity of the Killzone trailer he is asked about I-8:

Jack is then asked the infamous Killzone question to which he replies:

Jack's conducting a lesson in PR 101: If you don't want to answer the question (i.e. Killzone = Real?) you instead ignore the question and continue answering something different. In this case he was clearly talking about how I-8 was definitely real time. Citing Ted's name made him the very subject of Jack Tretton's 'it's definitely real' reply.

The problem at the time was that we're seeing Killzone footage being shown in our faces, but Jack and the interviewer are sat facing each other in a dead studio. We think he's describing the Killzone footage [we're seeing] as real but he's not and can't even see that it's being played to the viewer.

Voted: CGi, not going to look the same

hehe, thanks but I was actually talking about when G4 TV interviewed the VP of marketing in Europe for SCEA or was it Sony but he said 100% it is real.

also, dev kits are intuitive??

 

[Mmmkay]

hehe, thanks but I was actually talking about when G4 TV interviewed the VP of marketing in Europe for SCEA or was it Sony but he said 100% it is real.

Who do you think Jack Tretton is?!