What do you think about the killzone trailer?

[London Geezer]

Enough already with Killzone!!!

 

[SubD]

Enough already with Killzone!!!

Stay out of threads if you don't have anything of value to add.

 

[Tim]

From http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=killzone&message.id=73776

"Okay, I'm going to have to lock this thread because it's getting heated again... sigh...

A couple of things to mention though...

First, we have stated up here before that the earlier versions of the PS3 dev kits were not final specs and we could not produce real-time at the proper frame rate on them for E3.

Second, we have stated that the video was done to specs. Let me explain something about game development. There are very, very few development teams that have the time and manpower to do every single bit of the in-game movies themselves and still get the game done. We outsource all the time. One of the benefits to having standard tools in the industry light LightWave and Maya is that you can exchange actual models, textures, etc with others using the same program. That means you can provide assets and offload the work of putting them all together to someone else.

Third, we stated that this video represents what we believe is achievable on the PS3. I'll dance around my NDA restrictions just a bit to say that I've seen graphics coming together at Guerrilla that support this claim.

Fourth, if you look at the credits for KZ1 - you'll see that we used Axis before. Doesn't it make sense to use a proven vendor when you need to outsource work? Especially when under the gun to complete something for a presentation? One who is able to work with your assets and development pipeline? Just think about it...

The above is just another confirmation that the Killzone trailer indeed was CG.

 

[SubD]

The above is just another confirmation that the Killzone trailer indeed was CG.

 

[London Geezer]

Stay out of threads if you don't have anything of value to add.

Cause you do? what's the point of yet another killzone thread repeating the same things for the 829th time and waste the website bandwidth? That's without considering that most other Killzone-related thread were locked because of useless bickering, which is obviously present in this thread too.

 

[Tim]

What is that you don't understand? Ferret7 is very clear, the video is not real time - only representation of what they believe is possible on the PS3.

 

[Nicked]

Honestly after owning a 360, I'm not too impressed after watching that E3 trailer anymore.

You're a hard man to impress. It absolutely kills anything else in modelling, texuring, animation, physics, smoke effects, etc. etc. Nothing comes close.
With good reason too, because its pre-rendered.

I know time dulls the memory, but damn man:
http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/616/616298/killzone-next-gen-20050518031915942.jpg
http://www.ps3updates.com/killzone_2Dnext_2Dgen_2D20050518031918692.jpg

Actually your view is pretty common now, people really have forgotten just why everyone thinks its CG...
a) Because it is
b) Because its so more impressive than any other game we've seen.

Now, will Guerrilla Games deliver? Will any developer deliver? I'm not so sure. I used to think "hell yeah" (my earlier post in this thread I was confident they would fake it imperceptibly), but I guess I'm the opposite of you, the more next-gen stuff I see the more I believe this isn't possible.

 

[SubD]

Cause you do?

Gee, let's see.

I just provided a direct quote from one of the Killzone developers from six days ago, 12-29-2005, as his final word on the subject, making it clear that the most talked about and debated game trailer ever was not CG and was in fact processed through their existing toolchain to run on actual game hardware.

"waste the website bandwidth"



Coming from the contentless sideshow freak of the B3D forums! Golden!

 

[London Geezer]

Gee, let's see.

I just provided a direct quote from one of the Killzone developers from six days ago, 12-29-2005, as his final word on the subject, making it clear that the most talked about and debated game trailer ever was not CG and was in fact processed through their existing toolchain to run on actual game hardware.

"waste the website bandwidth"



Coming from the contentless sideshow freak of the B3D forums! Golden!

You're wasting bandwidth not only because you're repeating the same things over and over, but because you seem to be blind. The post you quoted only confirms that the video in question IS pre-rendered, although the guy admits that they're reaching the same kind of graphics in studio.

Third, we stated that this video represents what we believe is achievable on the PS3. I'll dance around my NDA restrictions just a bit to say that I've seen graphics coming together at Guerrilla that support this claim.

Meaning the video is prerendered (big surprise!!) but they expect PS3 games to have the same level of graphics, from what he is seeing in his studio - from other demos or engines they're making probably.

Anything else?

 

[weaksauce]

Could someone explain why CGi experts are qualified to predict whether something is possible in realtime or not?

AFAIK, the methods and algorithms used for rendering in Lightwave etc are totally different from real time rendering which rely on "faking it".

http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=killzone&message.id=74003#M74003

BTW, I don't think you should see the poll as valid, it was made before all these announcements and videos.
Hey, I'm not believing it was sped up anymore. I still think it will look the same tho, atleast similar.
Maybe not the AA, but the rest.

 

[SubD]

What is that you don't understand? Ferret7 is very clear, the video is not real time - only representation of what they believe is possible on the PS3.

Why do people like you bother posting in technical forums?

Here, I will spell it out nice and slow for you:

* External art house with an existing relationship is contracted to generate Killzone demo art.

* External art house creates animation sequence(s) in art package, Lightwave it sounds like.

* Existing/updated Guerrilla export tools are used to generate data to run on their early PS3 engine.

* Animation sequence(s) are run on early devkit in realtime, but slowly, and recorded out to individual frames - complete with sorting and geometry pop errors from their in progress PS3 engine

* All camera action/animations comes straight out of the art/animation package - no AI, physics, input is running - straight animated geometry and particle effects

* Frames are used to create animation and sounds effects are added to final animation to be sent off to be played at E3

* CG version of the demo exists, used by the Xbox crowd as 'proof' the demo was CG

The hilarious irony of the Killzone E3 demo is the only thing real was the actual graphics themselves...

 

[SubD]

You're wasting bandwidth not only because you're repeating the same things over and over, but because you seem to be blind. The post you quoted only confirms that the video in question IS pre-rendered, although the guy admits that they're reaching the same kind of graphics in studio.

So you don't know the difference between:

1) Rendered in an art package like Maya or Lightwave

and

2) Rendered on devkit hardware to framebuffer grabs

Perhaps there is some less technically challenging thread where you can go play in?

 

[London Geezer]

Perhaps there is some less technically challenging thread where you can go play in?

Why do people like you bother posting in technical forums?

Coming from the contentless sideshow freak of the B3D forums! Golden!

Whatever.

Keep it up mate, you're doing a great job at getting yourself banned.

 

[London Geezer]

So you don't know the difference between:

1) Rendered in an art package like Maya or Lightwave

and

2) Rendered on devkit hardware to framebuffer grabs

Funny enough i do, as i've worked with Maya for quite a while.

Maybe it's you who doesn't understand that either way, the video wouldn't be real-time, which is the issue at hand here and has been discussed countless times.

Thank you.

 

[j^aws]

...
* Animation sequence(s) are run on early devkit in realtime, but slowly, and recorded out to individual frames - complete with sorting and geometry pop errors from their in progress PS3 engine

I haven't seen the trailer in ages, can you point to where these artifacts are? And are you suggesting the KZ trailer went through the same workflow as Heavenly Sword?

 

[weaksauce]

Hey, now that we have jeremy here maybe he could tell us about the glitches?

TELL US!


(that layer thing did sound convicing tho)

SubD, I was actually thinking before that they maybe had ported it to the engine, but I didn't think it would be possible later. But it is?

 

[Nicked]

I haven't seen the trailer in ages, can you point to where these artifacts are? And are you suggesting the KZ trailer went through the same workflow as Heavenly Sword?

A guy pops into view just on-screen in the tunnel area (bit with the flamethrower). And thats an indication of it being "in-game" because ya know, CG is perfect. CG can't have errors. Animators don't make mistakes.

@L-B, alert a mod, don't bother arguing. You can't win against blissful ignorance.

 

[London Geezer]

@L-B, alert a mod, don't bother arguing. You can't win against blissful ignorance.

I use the report button a lot, and more people should too.

 

[j^aws]

A guy pops into view just on-screen in the tunnel area (bit with the flamethrower). And thats an indication of it being "in-game" because ya know, CG is perfect. CG can't have errors. Animators don't make mistakes.
...

Thanks, I'll have a look.

I'd just like to add that people seem to be arguing semantics, without defining CG, realtime, pre-rendered, FMV, target render etc. etc...IIRC, Heavenly Sword had this blurry definition too...

 

[London Geezer]

Thanks, I'll have a look.

I'd just like to add that people seem to be arguing semantics, without defining CG, realtime, pre-rendered, FMV, target render etc. etc...IIRC, Heavenly Sword had this blurry definition too...

Not sure if Nicked is talking about this, but at the beginning of the video, when the guys are still on the ship, there is a gun that "pops" behind one of the guys.

I agree, it's all semantics. But i think that what's important is that, whether it was made on Lightwave or Maya, or using devkits running at 5fps then glued together (like HS), the video was NOT real-time.
It was NOT like the realtime MGS4 demo Kojima demonstrated moving the camera, zooming in and out and changing variables. It was NOT real-time like all games we can buy today in the shops. It was a video, a series of frames, with frame after frame of pre-recorded footage. Whether those frames were done with Maya, with a devkit, with bloody watercolours, it doesn't matter.