The Racing Games Comparison Thread (GT5 & FM3) *spawn

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Yea sure i guess i underestemate how much bias people can have, didnt even think it would be an issue that needs testing for.

That's the thing about bias, it can't be self diagnosed.

Everyone has a bias, because our perspective is coloured by our experience.
Bias is natural and healthy.

Bias however is easy to detect with the right methods.

I'll give you a simple example:

If we were to take a new forum thread at random (before anyone has really gotten stuck in) I would say quite safely that 90% of the people here could predict with 90% accuracy which side of an issue 90% of the people here would sit on.

I'll go even further, I can tell with almost unerring certainty when a thread mentions an article, presentation, gossip etc whether it will be positive or negative to a given console based on who started the topic.

Try it for yourself.

Now that being said I'll get back on topic:

There is certainly an artistic difference between the two (thats what you pay art directors for).
In my opinion (bias and all), I have always prefered GT replay cameras and the vehicle lighting. But environments? blah!

Forza environments are fantastic, but (at least in forza 1 and 2) vehicle models sucked massive coconuts.

Now my real interest is the physics models. GT3 was ok and I skipped GT4. GT5P however was awful.
Collision response was shocking. Boundry case physics feel very state based and artificial. Steering rates are just strange (yeah that one is mute using a wheel but most people don't).

My favorite physics is live for speed or Netkar, and while forza is not quite up to that standard, it's my favorite on a console.
 
1. There is quite a bit of video (replays, off screen gameplay, etc) online. Check them out. Last time I checked you didn't need a 60fps 720p direct feed of gameplay to get a sense for the general direction of improvements of a title.

As much as GT5 as far as I've seen... lots of bullshots and some off screen video.

2. Per Arwin, patsu, et al you have *no clue* what GT5 looks like, will play like, or what features the final version will have... get with them if you disagree with this statement because they have posted this over and over again. Release date, which cars will have damage, which will have interiors, various gameplay mode details, etc will be deployed in the retail version of GT5 are unknown to a large degree. As we continue hearing: GT5P != GT5.

Silly exaggeration. We have no clue? I think we have as much about GT5 as FM3 at this point, and FM3 is due sooner. We know GT5 has over 1000 cars, so does so whether it's 1005 or 1065 means we have no clue? :oops:

And GT5P != GT5, but it will be damn close so don't think it is not relevant.
 
ME: Turn10 has done a good job improving their product visually while also improving the game product. How it compares to the unreleased GT5 who knows (we cannot even get confirmations on damage, interiors, how the framerate will be with 16 cars, what the finished courses will look like, etc)

YOU: That's funny, I was thinknig the opposite. We know what GT5 will look and play like, we have a rather large demo. As for FM3, all we have are some photo mode shots. How does FM3 look during game play, how does the frame rate hold up, do you know these things? Did I miss a demo?

ME: 1. There is quite a bit of video (replays, off screen gameplay, etc) online. Check them out. Last time I checked you didn't need a 60fps 720p direct feed of gameplay to get a sense for the general direction of improvements of a title.

YOU: As much as GT5 as far as I've seen... lots of bullshots and some off screen video.

Yep, about par for the course for you. It isn't even like the same discussion...

As per the GT5 vs. GT5P prologue I will allow others to jump in who have been adament that they are different products and it isn't fair to judge GT5 based on GT5P.

We know GT5 has over 1000 cars, so does so whether it's 1005 or 1065 means we have no clue? :oops:"

With eyes that big I am quite surprised you missed "insignificant" things like, ohhhh, like will those 1000 cars have interiors/cabin views and fully modeled damaged. Ohhhh wait, I just gave those specific examples.

I know car count is an obession for some, but in terms of gameplay the GT5 thread has had a fair amount of discussion concerning these two features. It is hard to say much about a product, let alone compare it, when you don't know (let alone have tested) such features.

Hence my original suggestions on how to handle a comparison in the spirit of B3D.

Anyhow I am certain grandmasters FM2/FM3 article will clearly demonstrate there has been visual improvements. Anyone who has played the first game can see that.
 
Well , mentioning that FM3's shots are from photomode is not forbidden in this topic, viva freedom.

[ I've been warned by a mod officially for doing it recently ]

ADD. I am pretty sure the warning was because the thread was split due to the constant derailments and warnings related toward photomode PR shots ("@#%$@#$ Turn10! Tricking consumers with more photomode trash blah blah blah") and people continued throughtless comments complaining about photomode shots instead of discussing the game.

Alas you are free to post in the correct thread. If anything he mods here are a looooot more lenient than they used to be.
 
I know car count is an obession for some, but in terms of gameplay the GT5 thread has had a fair amount of discussion concerning these two features. It is hard to say much about a product, let alone compare it, when you don't know (let alone have tested) such features.

The "obsessions" vary based on what your teams strengths are. Had it been 100tracks and 500 cars, we'd hear about "OMG 100 UNIQUE TRACKS!!!!"
Fanboys focus only on championing the positives of their select team and disappear or deflect when a negative attribute is brought up.

The real annoying one will start doing PR work on the negatives. Example:

You: The damage model in this game needs a lot of work.

Fanboy: I wouldn't be surprised if majority of the people simply turn off damage. I mean after all, when the game model look so beautiful (genre defining, I might add) I can see many getting attached to the car they're driving and not wanting it see it damaged. I know that's the case with me.

I mean really, unless you're on the payroll or vested with stock, leave the PR speak to the companies. If you really want to help your game be "genre defining" bring attention to the things that are lacking. I suppose then you run into the risk of being stoned by your brethren. Tough spot to be in, I guess....
 
I'm really surprised that so little fuss has been made over sound this time. It was a big issue that many had with GT4. I wasn't one of them, because I was okay with just being able to shift according to the rev tones. Now that I own a V8 muscle car, I can truly appreciate the differences in engine sounds and want greater authenticity in my racing games. Even other aural elements are more noticeable to me now, and I find offensive GT5P's tire squeal sounds. I can't think of any car racing game that doesn't sound better than GT.
 
Ah, the damage-card ( :p )
People did this is Forza2 you know, writing how realistic it was and all that.
Then I saw a friend playing it, head on collision with another car (he was driving in the opposite direction), his speed was more than 150 mph, combined i think 300 mph. Head on..
So what happened? The front window broke and both mirrors fell off... :D

Still, read some reviews they go on about "realistic damage".
Now it will be different, because they will be compared this time.
Especially now that turn 10 proclaimed forza3 the best game of this generation..

I look forward to playing both, but if GT5 turns out to be much better, I'll skip on Forza3. If Forza3 will be much better (though I doubt it) I'll skip GT5. These games will eat up 100s of hours, so can't have both. Anyway, I can choose. Fanboys don't have that luxury. Also they can never compare the two fairly. They will always hate the game that is too powerful to run on their system.
offtopic: Look at the anger Naughty Dog caused when they explained they were using SPU rendering/maxing out the PS3: fanboys got more angry than when Uncharted2 was pronounced best graphics of the show or something. Fanboys will always hate and don't want to face reality.

I wish turn10 and polyphony could do a game together.. :D
It would have the graphics and gameplay of GT5, and the online and 'paint on your car' from Forza3. Goty confirmed :)
 
A still picture can easily have visible signs of HDR rendering, for example, when there are reflections/refractions in low-reflectance/low-transmittance materials. Such reflections/refractions rendered without HDR environment maps would clip the bright areas to a gray and look quite dull.
You can add over-exposed highlights with boring old additive blending. I did as much in DX7. A good bloom post-effect can do similar.
 
The "obsessions" vary based on what your teams strengths are. Had it been 100tracks and 500 cars, we'd hear about "OMG 100 UNIQUE TRACKS!!!!"
Fanboys focus only on championing the positives of their select team and disappear or deflect when a negative attribute is brought up.

The real annoying one will start doing PR work on the negatives. Example:

You: The damage model in this game needs a lot of work.

Fanboy: I wouldn't be surprised if majority of the people simply turn off damage. I mean after all, when the game model look so beautiful (genre defining, I might add) I can see many getting attached to the car they're driving and not wanting it see it damaged. I know that's the case with me.

I mean really, unless you're on the payroll or vested with stock, leave the PR speak to the companies. If you really want to help your game be "genre defining" bring attention to the things that are lacking. I suppose then you run into the risk of being stoned by your brethren. Tough spot to be in, I guess....

I totally agree with you, in fact this is almost as lame as someone who is in love with Forza 3 (or every single MGS game) and pretending to give a shit about GT getting better.
 
the complaints are that they don't look like the same game, if i remember correctly

imo they should show the real gameplay more, not as a comparison to gt5, but because it looks great how it is in it's own way

Neither GT or Forza are going to release direct feed of gameplay. All we'll get is photomode and replay mode. They just do not want their gameplay product compared to the other guys replay mode. It's as simple as that.
 
What we really need is more consumers ripping their favorite games--would make a good thread. I quite enjoy shredding my own favorite games. I don't have GT5/P so as I mentioned before it is difficult to compare a game I don't have and that isn't released. But I had FM2 and ripped it a lot for the graphics and the SP. It was a great game but it was far from genre defining in a lot of ways. As a consumer I am excited to see Turn10 has addressed a lot of my complaints and improved on what made me like the game. I still would have liked 12 or more cars on track, an "ultra realism" damage model (a bad whack and you are essentially DONE.... oh and a safety "rating" for drivers so you can filter races for safe drivers and force bad drivers to have start delays and such), more oval racing, and I am sure some would love night and weather (meh to me) as well as offroad and city racing (kind of too broad imo, better a dedicated sping off ala FM3:Off Road). Getting the livery editor on the PC would be great. So while I like the idea of rewind, single button racing (!!!), Halo 3-style MP options, the SP campaign improvements, improved graphics, auto upgrades and tune (life savers for me) the game still has a lot of room to grow and improve. I probably won't be as hostile toward this release of Forza (Gamersyde members probably remember the epic FM2 thread haha) but I already see areas of needed improvement for the next release which should be on the next console. I hope I don't have to wait until next gen for split screen online / with AI. Nice to see PGR4 could do that (the reason I break it out once in a while) while the rest don't even bother. I guess FM2 had splitscreen, but not AI and not online. The shift away from real life social gaming with big franchises has been a big bummer for me.
 
We'll see. I can't remember PD doing something like that previously to be honest. Sure we've seen upscaled shots on the official sites here and there, but all those were press shots also intended for print as far as I could tell. But we've always gotten a fair amount of direct feed stuff pre-release in the past, and I'm not sure why this would be any different.

It's a pity that TGS is still just under a month away, but I'm going to bet that we'll get a lot of media by then, and we'll see media of all sorts (e.g. direct feed, replay mode, photo mode, etc.). Since Forza 3 is going into cert within a week, I think we'll also get direct feed of that game pretty soon - official previews and reviews won't be too far away. I don't think Turn10 can wait doing that until TGS, but you never know.

EDIT: What you're asking Joshua is good, but for me personally that is something I've done a lot of times already for GT. Many other GT fans will have done the same. Especially on the specialised boards, we can be an incredibly critical bunch and each has their own pet peeves. Even in the GT thread you can see how panic can break out among old GT fans about the direction the series is or isn't taking. Iron Tiger's mention of sound ("this time") is a good example also.

The thing is though, GT5 Prologue satisfied a lot of my anxiety. The changes versus GT4 were very big:

- 16 cars vs 6
- cockpit view (full 360 degrees by the way)
- 16 player online play with pretty good netcode and configuration options (even if they are not in our control currently).
- AI is improved where it counts for me - they will avoid me when I'm driving next to them, even in a corner, and won't take me out.
- a decent penalty system which ghosts your car when you've crashed so you won't take out other drivers (you'll find that I'm hostile to any feature that adds some form of luck to competitive racing)
- clutch and H| shifter support (basically using the full set of features of wheels like the G25)
- professional mode racing option with greatly improved driving model
- the option to turn off ABS completely
- car classification according to clear performance indicators

This leaves only small things I want for GT5, but there is actually no reason to believe most of those aren't in there already, except maybe the option to freely arrange the starting grid in an online game, which would be great for online tournaments. I want to know about these things and others like if there are any improvements in what you can do in pit-stops etc. but these are small details and again they involve mostly stuff that was in GT4 already. Stuff like head-tracking could be great, but I haven't seen it nor know for certain its in there, so I'm not even taking that into consideration.

Note that in that respect, GT also has it relatively easy compared to Forza. It's the first proper release on the PS3 and the amount of improvements versus the previous one can be (and had to be - many people were disappointed with GT4) huge.

Now when we take a look at Forza 3, Forza 2 already got a few things right. For instance, compared to GT4:

- it had online play
- performance indicators
- abs-free driving

But it also had flaws, that even if they weren't all that many, for me they were fatal:

- online was good, but the netcode was peer-to-peer in the worst of ways. At least I had a lot of issues with it. A small thing, but not being global I also couldn't play with the IGN Cars editor.
- the driving model was flawed, particularly for RWD cars (and they tend to be rather popular in these games). I'm one of those who are of the opinion that difficult <> realistic. Someone else described it as a problem with two different grip models, one when the car has grip, one when it doesn't. Combined with overexaggeration of the slope parameter, it made for some really weird moments of losing the rear of the car.
- the graphics were disappointing. Of course the cool customisation options were definitely a mitigating factor, but unfortunately that's not something I'm interested in.
- not a huge problem, but still annoying was that a fair number of car models were flawed. Again, this was offset (and partly caused) by customisation options, but it detracted a little.
- AI killed me far too often. Made driving using realistic settings nearly unplayable - one tap at the rear in a corner sent me off, which isn't unrealistic and can happen, but happened far, far too often especially at the start.
- not enough tracks
- limited peripheral support (basically had to get the Microsoft wheel, which isn't bad, but I already had two Logitech wheels for GT that were cheaper and better, and compatible with PC!)

My conclusion unfortunately was that I could and probably should have skipped Forza 2. It was simply not worth the money I spent on it, even just on the game itself, never mind buying the MS Wheel.

So here, Forza 3 is offering the following improvements, that I can actually judge and care about:

- cars look better
- there are more cars
- more tracks
- full support for the Fanatec wheel (i.e. a non-MS wheel), but unfortunately probably not the G27 (not clear yet, but looks like it)
- clutch and shifter support
- cockpit view (have so far only seen 180 degrees by the way, anyone seen the rear cockpit anywhere yet?)

There are obviously more improvements that are going to be very valuable for some, but not for me. Ditto for GT5.

So from this perspective, we could do a comparison, but I just don't know enough to make a final judgment. We can say what areas Forza 3 doesn't improve that I do care about, like just having 8 cars, but at this point I'm not quite interested yet.

Be sure though that I'll be getting Forza 3 and give it a shot - if it's good it's good. I've played racing games on well over 10 platforms. I have the 360 and a wheel, and I'm a driving game and car nut, so why wouldn't I? At the very least I'll be able to intelligently make comments on the inevitable ubiquitous comparison threads. ;) And I'll be interested from a new B3D podcast inspired graphics technology perspective too.
 
We'll see. I can't remember PD doing something like that previously to be honest. Sure we've seen upscaled shots on the official sites here and there, but all those were press shots also intended for print as far as I could tell. But we've always gotten a fair amount of direct feed stuff pre-release in the past, and I'm not sure why this would be any different.

Right! :LOL:

It was almost impossible to find direct feed ingame play media of GT4 that was not offscreen replay or promo or both. Also same with GT5p (non promo highres + replay). Actually only direct feed ingame play captures I've seen of GT5p is at Gamersyde where they captured it themselves.
 
This is always a hot topic on all forums.. FM Vs GT..

I've been struggling on the more official forums of both games, as I see strengths and weaknesses of both, neither seems perfect in many ways, but both are epic games in their own right. However, if you criticise any aspect of the respective games, the backlash can be considerable!

Graphically, from everything I've seen so far, it does seem that if you look at the image fidelity, both games have peaks and troughs, but I'd say that GT5 has larger peaks and lower troughs, with FM being more consistent but crucially missing the real highs that stand out in selective comparisons.

I'm happy that both games look excellent, but I'm amazed how many people have an inability to critique their own favourite and make a balanced statement.

I'm amazed how the argument is almost exclusively over graphics and car count, and the actual game mechanics and other aspects are so swept under the carpet, I would swear people can only enjoy the game if they are told it's better then the competition, as if they lack the ability to appraise the game on their own.

We are told that TGS is the time at which we should get a great deal of information on not only GT5, but it sounds like T10/MS will be countering with their own media and information, so lets look forward to that!
 
I'll be getting both.

I'm a bit non-plussed about GT5's NASCAR and WRC licences - there's a pretty high watermark for both (NASCAR Racing 2003 and Richard Burns Rally on PC), and I think 16 cars on track will feel a bit empty in NASCAR, while the off-roading in GT4 left a lot to be desired. I'm not interested in damage and I hope they don't chase that at the expense of other features - I'm a sim fan and damage means your doin it rong.

I hope Forza 3 has an improvement over the binary physics of F2, which seemingly used separate under- and over-the-limit driving models and didn't switch between them in a very realistic manner, but was often infuriating. I think keeping just 8 cars on track will make all but the shortest tracks feel empty again. If that's what they had to do to make the graphical leap they appear to have made then so be it, but I'd rather have, say, 12 cars and graphics somewhere between F2 and the F3 shots. The news that real-world tracks are being "tweaked proportionally" doesn't sound promising either.

Then there's NFS Shift which I haven't followed too closely but will be checking out the demo with keen interest, and Supercar Challenge which I think is going to fall into budget category with other titles coming out shortly which I'll also be picking up - not enough cash or gaming time to go round :cry:

It's a good time to be a sim racer, that's for sure.
 
... I'm a sim fan and damage means your doin it wrong...

Isn't damage a key to sim racing, depending on how it is done? Shouldn't crashing out of the race be a real fear? GT4 was the first and only GT game I played, and I was surprised you could just crash and reset your car on the track. I don't actually have a problem with that, but I wouldn't call it sim.

Damage is something that I'd like to see being adjustable in a racing game. Not just on/off, but varying degrees of damage. Then you can have the hardcore where any wheel damage or engine damage puts you out of the race right away, or a game where damage is purely superficial, or a game where there isn't any damage at all.
 
What we really need is more consumers ripping their favorite games--would make a good thread.

GT used to be my favorite over the years, but Forza replaced it even though F2's graphics were just average. Some simple examples as to why:

1) GT offers a gagillion cars but so many are worthless vehicles that I wouldn't have in my own driveway if they were given to me free. Do they really need 10 variations of the Trabant (or insert some other craptacular car here)? It's aggravating to play and play, and be 'rewarded' with a worthless 63hp car. Why? For comparison, Forza rewards you with proper cars much sooner making it much more fun.

2) GT feels extremely sterile. The environments seem very basic, and the cars don't seem alive, they just feel like remote control cars trying to stay on their pre-determined track. It feels lifeless. Forza to me was better in this regard although it also needs some work. Both pale compared to Grid which feels maniacally alive, the opponents actually feel like they are being driven by humans instead of locked-to-a-magnetic-path ai.

3) GT's customization has fallen woefully behind. Just buying parts and making small tweaks isn't enough. In Forza I was able to build a 1000hp Dodge Charger tricked out to look real nice with a very custom paintjob (done by an artist friend for me, but still...).

4) Yeah I like damage, so sue me :) GT's damage as shown so far is weak. In Forza cars can be smashed and flipped.

GT seems to be coasting, they are so caught up with having the most cars that they are missing the big picture and falling behind the competition, to me anyways. I played the GT demo and GT prologue, and the fun factor just wasn't there compared to other games. It just feels like the same old GT formula of yesteryear, whereas the competition is moving forward.

A friend once called it GrandSnorismo, because of how sterile and boring it has become to play, how little you can customize, and how long it takes to earn a proper car. It really seems targeted now to those who have the time to put 300+ hours into it, and have the patience to endure to eventually be rewarded far in the future. My needs have changed I guess. I don't have that kind of time. I want to have fun, I want the cars to feel like proper opponents, I want to be awarded cool cars, I want to trick them out, and I want to smash them up. I'll still get GT since I can get PS3 games for $10 anyways, but I anticipate liking Forza 3 better.
 
TBH, it seems like you're more into arcade style racers then, seeing that you prefer customization of the physical appearance of your car and that you find the gameplay in GT is boring. It may be boring to some, but for most sim racer fans, it's not boring at all. IMO, GT has a good sense of speed and the gameplay is extremely fun to me. I personally get little enjoyment playing games like Grid or Dirt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1EEZe-Eqto
 
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