The problem with Nvidia's 3D surround.

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spigzone

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INHERENT INSTABILITY

Here is the problem I see with current 3D technology. Human eyes are evolved
to work in perfect spacial syncronicity. They move in unison. They focus in
unison. They unfocus in unison. They ACT AS ONE. Depth perception is
accomplished by each eye mechanically changing it's focal length in syncronicity
with the other eye.

But what happens with 'simulated' 3D? What appears on the monitor screen is
two offset images. When one puts the 3D glasses on each eye only sees one of
those two images. They are no longer focusing as one, they are each focusing
on a slightly different image. This is an unnatural state and creates an inherent
instability in the eye/brain visual system. The brain resolving that instability is
what simulates the perception of depth where none physically exists. But there is
a cost to this, the reported queasiness, headaches and fatigue, worsening over
time.

But what actually physically happens? The eyes normally change their focal
length to perceive depth, but a monitor screen is flat, it has no depth (in practical
terms). If the eyes actually changed their physical focal length to resolve the
simulated 3D image the entire screen would go out of focus. Therefore 'focusing'
while looking at the simulated 3D image must be accomplished by other means.

The eyes are reflexively trying to bring those disseparate images together while
the brain is trying to make sense of it all and fit it into existing visual paradigms.
This problem is inherent to any 3D system using offset images and any such
system will always generate negative word of mouth over time and a percentage
of the population will be unable to tolerate it at all.

INHERENT LAG

Here are the problems I see with 3D multiple monitor gaming. When looking at a
monitor in 2D the eyes are able to transverse the screen and access the
information contained therein very fast ... in biomechanical time. Hardwired fast
as it were. With 3D there is an added 'software' layer added in. Accessing
information now requires the eye/brain system to FIRST percieve and then
'focus' at the depth information is at (otherwise it will be out of 'focus') and
THEN perceive and process the information pertinent to the gaming action. It
introduces a time lag to information retrieval and processing. In a twitchy shooter
that inherent time lag is likely to be fatal. The gaming penalty would, of course,
be proportional to the reflex speed required to successfully play a game.

With multiple monitors, the situation worsens. The inherent advantage of wing
monitors, peripheral vision heads up and the ability to glance over to access
additional information, is largely negated. There is a physial impediment to
peripheral vision, the glasses themselves curtail the ability to 'glance' over at the
screens without moving the head, it is necessary to physically move the head
and then go through the focusing software layer to access the information
contained in the side screens, and there is an attention impediment, that artificial
focusing software layer is creating a tunnel vision effect, absorbing available
attention units as it were. When one is looking at the main screen continually
sorting through the depth layers to see vital information, information coming in
from the periphery, from the side screens, is likely to get short shrift. And always
the headache/fatigue factor, increasing over time, inherent in 3D itself and
exacerbated by the NEED to continually focus in to access gaming information.
In a fast moving 3D game that NEED will drive the eye/brain system to work very
very hard, in an unnatural way, without a break and for lengthy periods of time.

ACTIVE vs PASSIVE

When watching movies, the effect is minimized as it is a relatively passive experience (although even then the effect can be very unpleasant). But in a game one is actively participating and interacting, there are immediate and unpleasant consequences if one is not focusing and gathering information one NEEDS to.

In terms of eyestrain, when watching a movie one has the luxury of allowing the eyes to relax, wander about, focus on whatever, albiet at the penalty of missing some of the 'action', but in a game there is a constant press to keep focusing, keep looking, there is no time for the eyes to relax, unfocus.This exacerbates the already inherent problems of 3D viewing.

HARDCORE vs CASUAL vs COST

What is the demographic composition of those willing to put out the money it
would take to create a 3D multiple monitor system? Three 3D capable screen
plus what is likely 2 Fermi cards in SLI in a high end gaming system = $4000
and up.

'Hardcore' gamers, those willing to buy cutting edge systems and graphic cards
because they provide an advantage in the games they play, are those least likely
to gain a gaming advantage from a 3D multi-monitor setup for the reasons
delineated above. Bragging about your new $6000 3D multimonitor setup and
then having your ass repeatedly handed to you by your peers, followed by their
hoots and derision, isn't going to be a pleasant experience. The casual gamers
might like the 3D surround experience, and would probably most benefit from it,
but how many will pay the price to have it in their homes?

So what exactly is the demographic for a very pricey 3D multi-monitor setup?

There's always that tiny sliver of the market with money to burn and who want
the cutting edge experience, no matter what, but that ain't gonna pay the bills.
 
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It's a niche product and a bigger deal is being made of it than it deserves. Most gamers have neither the money, nor the desk space to accommodate 3 widescreen monitors.
 
It's a niche product and a bigger deal is being made of it than it deserves. Most gamers have neither the money, nor the desk space to accommodate 3 widescreen monitors.

A 19-24" multimonitor setup isn't that expensive and if the experience and benefits are compelling enough, most gamers will find a way over time to make it happen and the more so as their friends do so.

A 3D set-up, however, IS that expensive and not only doesn't provide commensurate benefits, but perhaps even detracts from the gaming experience.

I see no reason why multi-monitor setups wouldn't become mainstream in the gamer community over time.

I also see no reason 3D multi-monitor setups would.
 
A 19-24" multimonitor setup isn't that expensive and if the experience and benefits are compelling enough, most gamers will find a way over time to make it happen and the more so as their friends do so.

A 3D set-up, however, IS that expensive and not only doesn't provide commensurate benefits, but perhaps even detracts from the gaming experience.

I see no reason why multi-monitor setups wouldn't become mainstream in the gamer community over time.

I also see no reason 3D multi-monitor setups would.

And you are a dounce as Nvidia's own release notes says the tech works in both 3D and 2D gaming modes. So people dont have to go out and find and buy overly expensive 3D supporting LCD 120Hz monitors. They can get regular LCD displays. Your doom glooming is getting just as old and tiresome as someone elses'.
 
And you are a dounce as Nvidia's own release notes says the tech works in both 3D and 2D gaming modes. So people dont have to go out and find and buy overly expensive 3D supporting LCD 120Hz monitors. They can get regular LCD displays. Your doom glooming is getting just as old and tiresome as someone elses'.

Nvidia is the company that first demoed a 3D multi-monitor setup and Nvidia has been pushing their 3D technology hard.

I saw problems with this approach and so I wrote an article delineating what I perceived those problems to be.
 
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When I was watching Avatar, I thought the 3D was really annoying frankly. Instead of just usual depth of field techniques to highlight parts of the scene, it also had the 3D effect. I'd call it static 3D because my eyes wanted to look around the 3D image and see it all in focus, but the depth of field that was still there of course prevented this. So it was definitely unnatural, but mostly because I couldn't focus on the parts of the scene that weren't filmed in focus. As a result I had to continuously figure out just what to look at to not strain my eyes.

I took the glasses off for most of the movie. The effect was "neat" but tiring and really just a gimmick overall IMO. Most people disagree it seems but whatever.

I've never tried NV's 3D effect. It just hasn't intrigued me because of my past experiences with 3D gimmicks.
 
And you are a dounce as Nvidia's own release notes says the tech works in both 3D and 2D gaming modes. So people dont have to go out and find and buy overly expensive 3D supporting LCD 120Hz monitors. They can get regular LCD displays. Your doom glooming is getting just as old and tiresome as someone elses'.

I'm aware.

But multi-monitor gaming is now firmly associated in the gaming publics mind with AMD/Eyefinity and 3D gaming, and now 3D multi-monitor gaming, is firmly associated in the gaming public's mind with Nvidia.

Ergo, over time, the best bang for the buck expansion of the gaming experience will become associated with AMD and the overpriced-underwhelming expansion of the gaming experience will become associated with Nvidia.
 
* Inherent instability: this is the same for all 3D solutions. It seems to be good enough for movies. I tried it at the local Fry's: seems to work fine. Maybe an 'professional' gamer may get a disadvantage playing it (or maybe not), but then the same could be said about playing with the highest quality settings. Most people are willing to trade-off responsiveness for eye candy.

* Inherent lag: same argument as above. BTW: there are many games where lag and responsiveness are really not all that important.

* Cost: if you're willing to pay for 3 monitors for Eyefinity, an additional GPU for get stereo is really no big deal. I would never buy such as setup, but then I'm perfectly happy with my GF8600, so I'm probably not the target audience anyway.

IMHO Nivida is doing exactly what technology companies are supposed to do: develop new technologies and hope that something will stick. Especially in the case of 3D vision, it seems like a no-brainer to me: they already had the technology for their Quadro cards, compared to the rest of their R&D budget, the 3D vision part must be in the noise.

The return on their investment is already significant: probably not in terms of direct sales of 3D vision kits, but in terms of marketing possibilities. CES was all about 3D imaging this year. Nvidia had something to show. It's always a good thing for a company to have some eye catching feature that the competition doesn't have. It's softens the blows during those times when you're not the absolute performance leader. PhysX serves a similar purpose. (And, yes: there are people who'll stick to Nvidia exactly for that reason.)

(I have this feeling that you'll want your 'essay' to disappear as soon as ATI comes out with a similar solution, but that's probably just me...)
 
IMHO Nivida is doing exactly what technology companies are supposed to do: develop new technologies and hope that something will stick. Especially in the case of 3D vision, it seems like a no-brainer to me: they already had the technology for their Quadro cards, compared to the rest of their R&D budget, the 3D vision part must be in the noise.

The return on their investment is already significant: probably not in terms of direct sales of 3D vision kits, but in terms of marketing possibilities. CES was all about 3D imaging this year. Nvidia had something to show. It's always a good thing for a company to have some eye catching feature that the competition doesn't have. It's softens the blows during those times when you're not the absolute performance leader. PhysX serves a similar purpose. (And, yes: there are people who'll stick to Nvidia exactly for that reason.)

(I have this feeling that you'll want your 'essay' to disappear as soon as ATI comes out with a similar solution, but that's probably just me...)

Not in the slightest. The exact same argument applies to AMD, although with a difference, that difference being the gaming public will tend to associate 3D multi-monitor gaming, and it's success or failure, with Nvidia first and AMD second. As my entire article was my reasoning why I considered 3D multi-monitor gaming would be a failure, that leads me to conclude Nvidia's reputation will, to some degree, take a hit from the association they have created. As I stated in my article it is not going to be a hit of magnitude, but when their reputation is already in the hole and a Fermi debacle looming in the near future, why add to that deficit, be it even minor, when it was not necessary.

This article just came from my looking it over in my mind. I'm just a old school popular science poring high school graduate into the sciences. I assume nothing I have said escaped either Nvidia's or AMD's tech people. AMD might jump into the 3D multi-monitor pool, but I would be surprised if they did. I think they will move more cautiously than Nvidia did. After all they are already getting great reviews and word of mouth on their 2D Eyefinity, where they are way ahead of Nvidia, why muddy it up?
 
It's a niche product and a bigger deal is being made of it than it deserves. Most gamers have neither the money, nor the desk space to accommodate 3 widescreen monitors.

3 24 inch monitors would make a bigger impact to your gaming than a 42 inch hd tv. While it might be slightly wider they are much skinner and no where near as tall. Also you can get 3 good 24 inch monitors for the price of 1 decent hd tv.


Anyway I don't like 3d in gaming. So far it has all sucked. I've tried the nvidia solution , i've tried the 3d monitors from izd and it all sucks . I'm hoping though that as these companys pour more money into it , they make it better than what it is . However ...

I love the 3 monitor set up and mabye if we can get rid of bezels i would love 6 and more screens also. This is much closer to prime time
 
3 24 inch monitors would make a bigger impact to your gaming than a 42 inch hd tv. While it might be slightly wider they are much skinner and no where near as tall. Also you can get 3 good 24 inch monitors for the price of 1 decent hd tv.


Anyway I don't like 3d in gaming. So far it has all sucked. I've tried the nvidia solution , i've tried the 3d monitors from izd and it all sucks . I'm hoping though that as these companys pour more money into it , they make it better than what it is . However ...

I love the 3 monitor set up and mabye if we can get rid of bezels i would love 6 and more screens also. This is much closer to prime time

How about three of these?

8301-31045_1-10426063-269.html
 
3 24 inch monitors would make a bigger impact to your gaming than a 42 inch hd tv. While it might be slightly wider they are much skinner and no where near as tall. Also you can get 3 good 24 inch monitors for the price of 1 decent hd tv.


Anyway I don't like 3d in gaming. So far it has all sucked. I've tried the nvidia solution , i've tried the 3d monitors from izd and it all sucks . I'm hoping though that as these companys pour more money into it , they make it better than what it is . However ...

I love the 3 monitor set up and mabye if we can get rid of bezels i would love 6 and more screens also. This is much closer to prime time

I don't recommend gaming on a monitor on one's desktop that is larger than 32", it's just too wide a FOV for most people. I have a 32" 720P LCD tv connected to the gaming PC at my GF's house and wouldn't ever want to go larger. I do use a 42" 1080P plasma with the high-end gaming machine at my place, but that's 6' or more away, depending on where I choose to sit. And the everyday gaming rig in my bedroom is connected to a run-of-the-mill 22" 1680x1050 LCD, which I find to be the most comfortable screen size and resolution of all 3 solutions I run.

I'm not against multi-monitor solutions by any means, just trying to put some perspective on the OP's rant. It's not really worth ranting about, IMHO due to how small the market is. Granted products like Eyefinity and NV's upcoming solution are obviously intended to grow this market, but due to the limitations I mentioned in my first post I don't believe there is enough potential for growth.
 
I posted the same essay at hardcop and semi-accurate.

That a problem?
Not in itself, but when I deem it a blatant troll I do mind. Find another forum to manipulate please, I don't want you here.
 
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