The GT5 expectation thread (including preview titles)*

[Arwin]

Clearly neither solution is perfect, but my personal preference remains to go the more realistic route.

Understood, just as long as it is clear that the 'artificial' route of a clever penalty system is the only one that has at least a theoretical chance of approximating 100% fairness.

 

[Nesh]

Yeah, fair enough. Having the collisions and damage can be exploited and can't be represented as allowing "no advantage to be gained from colliding with another car under any circumstances.." I'd argue that there is more risk involved, though. Still, the potential for cheap tactics is there. Clearly neither solution is perfect, but my personal preference remains to go the more realistic route.

Perhaps if they add virtual money to improve and fix your car to the system they might force people not to try such tactics. Penalties might be imposed, or any damage on your car will cost virtual money.

In the videos shown the instigators of the accident also suffered sever damages in most cases.

The system could penalize more those causing the damage than those getting it to make things even more fair

 

[slapnutz]

Perhaps if they add virtual money to improve and fix your car to the system they might force people not to try such tactics. Penalties might be imposed, or any damage on your car will cost virtual money.

In the videos shown the instigators of the accident also suffered sever damages in most cases.

The system could penalize more those causing the damage than those getting it to make things even more fair

Sega GT had a damage/maintenence costs after each race... and that was on the Dreamcast. Sure its the least PD could do with GT5.

 

[Jedi2016]

Real sim fans do indeed want real damage and fragile cars. That's where half the thrill of real racing comes from - the risk/reward decisions that you have to make all the time. The one flaw in Gran Turismo is that there is very little risk in driving aggressively due not only to the lack of damage, but even the collision dynamics, including free-body motion when the car leaves the ground.

However, chances are that most of the people who buy GT games aren't racing sim fans. My favourite racing game overall was Viper Racing (PC), and even though it was targetted at sim fans, I saw many retards posting about how unrealistically fragile the damage was or how easy it was to lose traction. So in the end I guess I agree with you to some extent.

Yeah, I'm aware that the truly "hardcore" sim fans go to the PC for their racing fix instead of the consoles. I've done it myself once or twice, but I tend to prefer consoles in general, and my PC isn't really built for gaming.

I was mainly pointing out about the people who get really pissy about it on some of the boards, and they're typically big fans of other console racers like Forza or PGR, that feature a modicum of damage that, in my opinion, isn't anywhere near what Polyphony wants to eventually have.

Personally, the missing damage model doesn't bother me very much. I tend to look at GT as being more of a driving game than a racing game. I've been known to hook up my DFP wheel and spend a whole day doing hot-laps around the Nürburgring in different cars.. a whole day of playing, and never actually enter a race.

 

[mrcorbo]

Understood, just as long as it is clear that the 'artificial' route of a clever penalty system is the only one that has at least a theoretical chance of approximating 100% fairness.

Not unless they can magically address VthisV it doesn't. No penalty system is going to be clever enough to outsmart someone deliberately out to exploit it. At *best* we're talking a wash here between the two approaches in terms of fairness.

That would be contingent on being able to make a concrete determination of who was at fault for the collision, otherwise it's just another exploitable mechanic. Simply penalizing the trailing car isn't going to cut it as a timely brake check would be all that would be required to acquire an unfair advantage.

 

[mrcorbo]

Perhaps if they add virtual money to improve and fix your car to the system they might force people not to try such tactics. Penalties might be imposed, or any damage on your car will cost virtual money.

In the videos shown the instigators of the accident also suffered sever damages in most cases.

The system could penalize more those causing the damage than those getting it to make things even more fair

It would be kind of redundant, though. If the collision damages your car and damage affects the performance, then the damage itself is a deterrent. It also doesn't really help the base problem which is the unfairness of the damage sustained by the "victim". And as I keep pointing out it's not always going to be easy to determine who was the instigator.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Not unless they can magically address VthisV it doesn't. No penalty system is going to be clever enough to outsmart someone deliberately out to exploit it. At *best* we're talking a wash here between the two approaches in terms of fairness.

I'd say weighing out the pros and cons, the 'artificial' system is the more fair. Consider a car that gets damage and careens across the road taking out 5 or 6 cars. It happens and those drivers lose through no fault of their own. That couldn't happen with an artificial system. You'd only ever impact the two cars who make contact, and never lose control because the cars are still perfectly functioning.

Imagine there's an online GT5 championship with a prize of $10,000. You're in the final, doing well, and then got knocked out through no fault of your own. Are you going to dust your hands and say 'well, all's fair in love and racing' or are you going to be seriously peeved that you've missed out on that prize because of some dumb schmuck? Even worse, you could have two racers collaborate with one deliberately taking out much of the rest of the pack including the best rivals, so his unofficial team-mate can easily win the prize and then split the money.

Impacting the least people in the least way has to be the aim of a collision response if you're aiming for fairness.

 

[Arwin]

Not unless they can magically address VthisV it doesn't. No penalty system is going to be clever enough to outsmart someone deliberately out to exploit it. At *best* we're talking a wash here between the two approaches in terms of fairness.

Sorry, but not only did I say theoretical, but that's nonsense. Of course a system can be devised that is more fair. In fact, the current system in GT5 Prologue is already a huge improvement in some respects, in that a car that makes a mistake and goes off track automatically becomes transparent and can't hit other cars. Sure maybe it doesn't work perfectly yet, but that right there prevents a lot of other cars being randomly shot out of the race because one driver made a mistake (or was tapped at the rear by another driver). There's a lot of intelligence already at work in that system (it can give a speed penalty with a duration relative to how badly you hit someone else and vice versa, and you can sometimes see this penality being corrected quickly afterwards), and though of course not perfect, it shows that in theory, a lot is possible. Basically what sometimes happens on the real track, i.e. penalties being awarded afterwards, is being applied quickly and consistently by a computer algorithm, and that, again, in theory, should eventually be able to reach perfection.

And it will certainly rather easily improve on the fairness of crashes. Just look at the number of cars involved in crashes versus the number of cars involved in crashes. A lot of "innocent bystanders" are taken out. GT5 Prologue has already improved on that significantly.

EDIT: Seems Shifty beat me to it.

 

[mrcorbo]

I'd say weighing out the pros and cons, the 'artificial' system is the more fair. Consider a car that gets damage and careens across the road taking out 5 or 6 cars. It happens and those drivers lose through no fault of their own. That couldn't happen with an artificial system. You'd only ever impact the two cars who make contact, and never lose control because the cars are still perfectly functioning.

Pileups and chain-reactions will still happen and can still cost you the race. It's merely a case of mitigation not elimination.

Imagine there's an online GT5 championship with a prize of $10,000. You're in the final, doing well, and then got knocked out through no fault of your own. Are you going to dust your hands and say 'well, all's fair in love and racing' or are you going to be seriously peeved that you've missed out on that prize because of some dumb schmuck?

In a situation like that you would expect there to be some form of human moderation. This is a case where I would have less of an issue with the potential exploitability of a penalty system as there would be presumably be a human judge who would be able to prevent it. I also would still fully accept the above scenario as presented as "part of the game". I'd be damn pissed, but I'd get over it.

Even worse, you could have two racers collaborate with one deliberately taking out much of the rest of the pack including the best rivals, so his unofficial team-mate can easily win the prize and then split the money.

Two people collaborating to cheat would still be able to cheat with a penalty system, it would just be done in a different way. That's why you would need a human administrator.

Impacting the least people in the least way has to be the aim of a collision response if you're aiming for fairness.

The farther you get from perfect fairness the relatively more important the other factors (aside from fairness) that effect the desirability of one or the other of these approaches become. I am very skeptical of how perfectly fair a penalty system could be.

Sorry, but not only did I say theoretical, but that's nonsense. Of course a system can be devised that is more fair. In fact, the current system in GT5 Prologue is already a huge improvement in some respects, in that a car that makes a mistake and goes off track automatically becomes transparent and can't hit other cars. Sure maybe it doesn't work perfectly yet, but that right there prevents a lot of other cars being randomly shot out of the race because one driver made a mistake (or was tapped at the rear by another driver). There's a lot of intelligence already at work in that system (it can give a speed penalty with a duration relative to how badly you hit someone else and vice versa, and you can sometimes see this penality being corrected quickly afterwards), and though of course not perfect, it shows that in theory, a lot is possible. Basically what sometimes happens on the real track, i.e. penalties being awarded afterwards, is being applied quickly and consistently by a computer algorithm, and that, again, in theory, should eventually be able to reach perfection.

Experience has shown me that people when presented with a system like this are very motivated and very successful at finding ways to exploit it. I don't expect this system will be any different.

Final thought:

Ultimately a damage and collision system will make its way into GT, maybe as soon as GT5 with a selective implementation. At that time the community will make a decision on a de facto standard race format for high-level racing that either will or won't include damage. That'll pretty much decide the issue as to which system has greater appeal.

And if you feel what I have been saying is nonsense than I apologize for wasting both of our time. It won't happen again.

 

[Nesh]

Well, if in reality drivers use rarely such dirty tactics because they will backfire at them in one way or another, then why cant something be implemented to discourage people from using them in a gaming environment too?

I think it can be done if studied carefully.

I feel the need of such realism to be added in a simulation game such as GT

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Pileups and chain-reactions will still happen and can still cost you the race. It's merely a case of mitigation not elimination.

How? If you don't have a realistic collision and damage model, you don't have cars losing control and ploughing into 5 or 6 others. Arwin's mentioned GT5Ps system where a car turns transparent and can't impact other vehicles. An artificial system means one driver can't devastate the whole pack, which is way better than real life!

I'm also unsure of your idea of moderation. Would you suggest the whole race be done again? In F1, you may get point penalties but that doesn't make up for the losses of the poor unfortunate drivers affected by dodgy driving. And how could you ever account for that? "We've determined that where you were on the 15th lap when you were knocked out, had you avoided that collision you'd have come in 5th." You'd have no way of knowing where a person would come in the end, so couldn't fairly dish out points. Surely it's better to avoid trouble happening than try to work out who was impacted how and try to compensate. Remember that the idea of the race, or any sport, is to find the best sportsman. Retroactively adjusting scores may balance out fairness, but it's not a true test of sportsmanship. It shifts some of the onus away from the sportsman and onto the adjudicators. If a system can be employed that puts all the emphasis back on the sportsman, or as much as possible, it has to be better for the sport.

BTW - for the record, I'd love to see a realistic crashing model in GT just because it'd look so cool and I'd love the technology. I'm not a racing fan

 

[sir doris]

It's Funny someone has brought up online Championships for money. Over Christmas I was watching (on Sky 1 ro 3 maybe?) a Video Games Championship from Las Vegas (I think).

The prize fund was $1M and there were teams from all over the world (including two from the UK). The games were CS:Source, FIFA, Dead or Alive and PGR. While PGR isn't a sim, there was plenty of smashing into one another and nothing seemed to be done about it, and this was for a prize fund of $1M!!!

 

[-tkf-]

In F1, you may get point penalties but that doesn't make up for the losses of the poor unfortunate drivers affected by dodgy driving.

You may get banned from the next race, be removed from the world championship or just get hefty fines.

There are plenty of ways to punish.

With online games it should be possible to set the rules pr race. No dmg, self inflicted dmg and full blown dmg.

But i have this hunch we wont see any visible dmg model in GT5..

 

[Shifty Geezer]

You may get banned from the next race, be removed from the world championship or just get hefty fines.

There are plenty of ways to punish.

Yes, but that doesn't compensate the casualties. Eg. Aaron Atherton taps Bertie Butson who careens across the road and crashes into Charlie Charles and Derek Doogood. Ethan Evans swerves to miss the crash and smacks Freddy Ferguson. Aaron, Bertie, Charlie, Derek and Ethan are out of the race, and Freddy suffers damage that loses him 5 places by the end of the race. Whatever penalties are slapped on Aaron, it won't correct the losses the rest experienced. And if you arbitrarily hand out points, these drivers aren't being measured on their performance as racers but on their luck. Now if Aaron's misdemeanour doesn't affect the other racers, with Bertie not getting flicked out and not causing other accidents, the position the racers come is down to their ability as racers (considering cars of course!). Aaron can be penalised as well, deterring bad driving, and the sportsmanship of the sport is preserved in its purest form - you progress according to your own ability and nothing else.

 

[Antan]

http://www.ene3.com/archives/021056.html

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Yes, but that doesn't compensate the casualties.

Thats why sports clubs, or in this case racing teams take out insurance on drivers

 

[DJ12]

Here is the solution to the dirty scumbag situation, force everyone to play with this attached

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/fun/gizmo/article881587.ece

 

[Antan]

http://www.thebitbag.com/2008/03/06...-prologue-gets-more-cars-tracks-and-features/

OSTER CITY, Calif., March 6 /PRNewswire/ — Sony Computer Entertainment
America Inc. (SCEA) announced today the robust vehicle roster, track list and
a host of additional features for the April 17 North American availability of
Gran Turismo(TM)5 Prologue, exclusively on PLAYSTATION(R)3 (PS3(TM)). Gran
Turismo 5 Prologue is the latest installment of the billion dollar selling
racing franchise and intense precursor to Gran Turismo(TM)5. Headlining the
roster of over 60 vehicles and 14 additional tuned cars is the Ferrari 599,
the Nissan GT-R and the Audi R8 4.2 FSI R Tronic. Players can race these cars
and many more around six meticulously rendered tracks, including Daytona
International Speedway(R), London City track and a series favorite, High Speed
Ring. Furthermore, additional features will be available to North American
consumers, including a Drift Mode, Car Tuning, two-player split screen racing
and a new set of offline and online Race Events.
“This impressive vehicle lineup and the additional features that cater to
North American racing fans are great compliments to Gran Turismo 5 Prologue’s
stunning 1080p graphics and revolutionary online features,” said Scott A.
Steinberg, vice president, product marketing, SCEA. “Fans are sure to be
pleased with the first Gran Turismo product for sale on PLAYSTATION 3.”

Very impressive additional content! Wonder how many still won`t buy as its still "a demo"?

 

[one]

http://www.gran-turismo.com/en/news/d1930.html

Announcing the collaboration between Citroen Design and Polyphony Digital

Mar 06, 2008

At the press day of the Geneva Auto Show (Open to the general public from March 6 (Thurs.) – March 16) held in Switzerland, Citroen has announced their new collaboration with Polyphony Digital.

On March 4th at 12:15pm, Gilles Michel who stood at the podium for the press briefing of the Geneva Auto show announced at the end of his speech, that “Citroen will now work as a creator in the Video Game world hereafter”. Simultaneous to the announcement, an image clip “Gran Turismo meets CITROËN” was played on the overhead monitor, and the Gran Turismo” series producer Kazunori Yamauchi stepped up onto the stage. And in front of the large number of news media, the collaboration between the two companies was officially announced.

Citroen will create a special sports model concept car for “Gran Turismo”, in a unique collaboration project to be presented to the world. The result of the collaboration will be presented at the Paris Auto salon in October this year.

Citroen has won glorious victories in the WRC (World Rally Championship) in recent years, and through the new innovations in design by their design director, Jean Pierre Ploué, has been successful in their business as well. Look forward to the result of their collaboration.

 

[desmond]

I wonder if there will be a patch for the Asian version.