The Game Technology discussion thread *Read first post before posting*

[AlNom]

Another question: Are Gears of War games using HDR?

They use the 7e3 format IIRC.

 

[Ruskie]

Sorry, but how the 360 can achieve better result of the ps3 in deferred tech? Just to know. I think anyone here said ps3 is the 'king', but from what we know now has some advantage in a full framebuffer with deferred, physics & other tech similar to post processing works (how 360 in trasparencies & unified shader...) by the way I don't think the rage engine of R use full deferred method, I don't know about DS2 but graphically appears pretty flat in others details... to me appears pretty obvious ps3 is more suitable for that tech. About DLAA of unleashed 2, on 360 works worse compared to ps3 (probably for its nature how PP) & imho isn't so different to custom AA solution of crytek, in motions. Same appears motion blur which use almost the double of samples on the ps3; sorry for my ot

How?The same way that GTA IV,RDR and Crysis 2 do it DLAA seemed identical to me but it seems like PS3 yields bit better results on some long edge surfaces.As for motion blur/post processing I dunno,didn't Crytek fit DOF & camera/object motion blur in 1 ms on consoles?Quality is also quite high for console version only this 1ms sounds to good to be truth.

 

[nightshade]

How?The same way that GTA IV,RDR and Crysis 2 do it

None of them are running on fully deferred rendered engine.

 

[Ruskie]

None of them are running on fully deferred rendered engine.

Well they mentioned deferred rendering approach,not full not partly.I always thought that people referred to games using RAGE engine and Crysis 2(CE3) as games using deferred renderer.

 

[scently]

What about console version of Metro? LPP or full DR?

Another question: Are Gears of War games using HDR?

Al we need an answer ASAP.:smile:

Anyway reading the DF interview on the game engine, it seems to be using full DR though I can't be 100% sure, with several mentions of deferred shading and several other deferred stuffs.

Also, how exactly do you classify an engine as being fully deferred or not? I ask this given that KZ engine employ some aspect of tradition or forward renderer in order to achieve some effect. So is it fully DF or partial.

Also, for an explanation on whether or not the 360 can handle a fully DR, look no further than the tech interviews of DF on Trials HD, the aforementioned Metro 2033 and Split/Second.

 

[assurdum]

How?The same way that GTA IV,RDR and Crysis 2 do it DLAA seemed identical to me but it seems like PS3 yields bit better results on some long edge surfaces.As for motion blur/post processing I dunno,didn't Crytek fit DOF & camera/object motion blur in 1 ms on consoles?Quality is also quite high for console version only this 1ms sounds to good to be truth.

DLAA works better how post processing; for the rest, I just repeat, seriously, technically how 360 can achieve the same results of ps3 or even better? I just ask, because to me deferred seem more ideal to spu job than edram & tricore 'structure' of 360... can anyone explain why to substain that on ps3 is wrong or in what 360 can achieve the same or better of the ps3?

 

[Ruskie]

DLAA works better how post processing; for the rest, I just repeat, seriously, technically how 360 can achieve the same results of ps3 or even better? I just ask, because to me deferred seem more ideal to spu job than edram & tricore 'structure' of 360... can anyone explain why to substain that on ps3 is wrong or in what 360 can achieve the same or better of the ps3?

How?I dunno,that should be asked DICE if you are aiming for BF3.Obviously both consoles are pretty close in terms of performance but they are totally different architecture so they will probably go for different approach on 360 than what they did with PS3 version.

I don't see how XCPU plays a part in deferred rendering game,everything should go from Xenos I guess.Different situation is on PS3 since you have to offload stuff on SPUs and what you offload is developers decision.They seem to be suited for deferred shading also and DICE moved it on Cell but GG are doing it on RSX with post processing on Cell.I guess it all depands on their setup,results should be pretty close I think.

 

[assurdum]

How?I dunno,that should be asked DICE if you are aiming for BF3.Obviously both consoles are pretty close in terms of performance but they are totally different architecture so they will probably go for different approach on 360 than what they did with PS3 version.

I don't see how XCPU plays a part in deferred rendering game,everything should go from Xenos I guess.Different situation is on PS3 since you have to offload stuff on SPUs and what you offload is developers decision.They seem to be suited for deferred shading also and DICE moved it on Cell but GG are doing it on RSX with post processing on Cell.I guess it all depands on their setup,results should be pretty close I think.

Forgive me, but it seem pretty ambiguous how answer... it is just how to said ps3 can do high buffer & unified shader just need found alternative way in the spu... I mean, my question is how we can prove the 360 can do the same with deferred or even better, when the only game fully deferred seem only kz engine in the console (& more discuss because use 'crappy' LDR)? I'm talking technically. On the ps3 I know how guerrilla has doing that, on 360 we know less & we talking more of deferred light....

 

[Ruskie]

GG-practical occlusion culling on PS3:smile:

http://www.secondintention.com/files/GDC2011-Occlusion-Slides.pdf

 

[SedentaryJourney]

The three main multiplatform engines we're aware of right now - CE3 UE3 and FB2 - are all converging to similar feature sets and architectures, although Epic doesn't seem interested in any kind of realtime global illumination yet. But they're all aiming for platform parity for obvious reasons, and any differences will likely be very subtle - we here at B3D will be aware of them but the majority of console gamer's won't ever notice.

Did UE3 switch to some sort of deferred rendering? I know the lighting in Gears 3 looks much more impressive than earlier UE3 games, but I figured it was just because of lightmass GI.

BTW people in this thread failed to mention Criterion's Chameleon engine, used in NFS:HP, is fully deferred.

 

[chris100]

With the latest progress of SPU deferred shading progress of BF3, the implementation of subsurface-scattering-like translucency from DICE still left much to be improved to match the peformance of 360 version.

This is the only comparison we have for BF3 related deferred shading between SPU and GPU,however, this fact seems to be ignored for many ways.

 

[chris100]

Forgive me, but it seem pretty ambiguous how answer... it is just how to said ps3 can do high buffer & unified shader just need found alternative way in the spu... I mean, my question is how we can prove the 360 can do the same with deferred or even better, when the only game fully deferred seem only kz engine in the console (& more discuss because use 'crappy' LDR)? I'm talking technically. On the ps3 I know how guerrilla has doing that, on 360 we know less & we talking more of deferred light....

Isn't CE3 also a fully deferred shading engine ?:smile:

 

[MJP]

.As for motion blur/post processing I dunno,didn't Crytek fit DOF & camera/object motion blur in 1 ms on consoles?Quality is also quite high for console version only this 1ms sounds to good to be truth.

They just roll both into a single pass. As long as you do it at 1/4 or res (or lower) and use a restricted amount of taps even RSX can do it pretty quickly.

 

[MJP]

Isn't CE3 also a fully deferred shading engine ?:smile:

Nah they do something similar to light prepass.

 

[MJP]

Did UE3 switch to some sort of deferred rendering? I know the lighting in Gears 3 looks much more impressive than earlier UE3 games, but I figured it was just because of lightmass GI.

AFAIK they still forward render with deferred shadows just like they've been doing since the engine came out. Lightmass would definitely account for overall improvement in lighting quality. Presumably Laa-Yosh is referring to the fact that their recent DX11 tech demo used deferred rendering, which suggests that they're planning to go that route in the future.

 

[scently]

Did UE3 switch to some sort of deferred rendering? I know the lighting in Gears 3 looks much more impressive than earlier UE3 games, but I figured it was just because of lightmass GI.

BTW people in this thread failed to mention Criterion's Chameleon engine, used in NFS:HP, is fully deferred.

Indeed, with all this talk of FDR it is strange and funny that most people who post in this thread don't seem to know that there are quite a number of games out there on both consoles that uses a fully deferred renderer.

Going through Remedy's Alan wake tech presentation (well its not really a tech presentation) it uses a deferred rendering engine, though its unclear if it is FDR or LPP.

 

[(((interference)))]

Two hugely important points - 1) BF isn't out yet. 2) There's been little talk about the 360 version, so we don't know what it is or isn't accomplishing. At this point any discussion on how Frostbite 2 is using the console hardware needs to be postponed until we get real, comparable information.

Well, to be fair we have got some indications that it's running faster on PS3 due to shading being offloaded to the SPUs. Which is a major difference between FB2 and every other PS3 engine out there (multiplat or not) and could quite possibly more than compensate for Xenos' performance advantage.

http://twitter.com/ChristinaCoffin/status/45211733962391552

And Metro 2033 is only light pre-pass (see the deferred rendering & 360 thread - in fact this whole discussion should probably be moved there)

 

[scently]

Well, to be fair we have got some indications that it's running faster on PS3 due to shading being offloaded to the SPUs. Which is a major difference between FB2 and every other PS3 engine out there (multiplat or not) and could quite possibly more than compensate for Xenos' performance advantage.

http://twitter.com/ChristinaCoffin/status/45211733962391552

And Metro 2033 is only light pre-pass (see the deferred rendering & 360 thread - in fact this whole discussion should probably be moved there)

Read the tweet that you quoted, you can see that she is referring to the current state in development.

 

[(((interference)))]

Read the tweet that you quoted, you can see that she is referring to the current state in development.

Yes, but unlike C2 where a similar comment was made in development, we actually have a good reason to believe that the PS3 version will look better - it's the first PS3 title offloading shading to the SPUs.

If the PS3 can match the 360 in Crysis 2, where the engine isn't specifically tailored to the PS3's strengths, there's a strong case that BF3 will run better on PS3.

I mean on PS3 you have KZ3 which is fully deferred, besides Trials we have no fully deferred titles running on 360 - so it's likely that fully deferred is more problematic to implement on 360 than PS3.

And of course DICE will take it one step further than even Sony's first parties with their SPU shading.

 

[scently]

Yes, but unlike C2 where a similar comment was made in development, we actually have a good reason to believe that the PS3 version will look better - it's the first PS3 title offloading shading to the SPUs.

If the PS3 can match the 360 in Crysis 2, where the engine isn't specifically tailored to the PS3's strengths, there's a strong case that BF3 will run better on PS3.

I mean on PS3 you have KZ3 which is fully deferred, besides Trials we have no fully deferred titles running on 360 - so it's likely that fully deferred is more problematic to implement on 360 than PS3.

And of course DICE will take it one step further than even Sony's first parties with their SPU shading.

This statement is strange, you need to examine it. Are you saying that Trials HD is not fully deferred or that since it is tiled based then it does not qualify as a FDR? Do bear in mind that BF3 IS using a tiled based deferred renderer. Also are you really ignoring Split/Second and NFS:HP?

What makes you believe that CE3 is fully optimized on the 360?

As for which version of BF3 will look better, I will say that it will be the PC version , as for the console versions, I am not going to start speculating or making affirmative statements on which version will be the better looking one as we don't have the full picture yet, thus its all conjecture and speculation ATM. I'd rather not look stupid when the game comes out and both versions looks and perform virtually identical.