The Game Technology discussion thread *Read first post before posting*
- Thread starter Shifty Geezer
- Start date
Are you sure about that? The transparent elements, seeing under the water, are full pixel-perfect resolution and not lower resolution textures. I'm not sure about the reflections. I'm seeing two issues getting muddled here : Bioshock's low-quality particle effects on PS3; and Bioshock's low-quality water. I haven't actually looked at comparison images so I'm kinda guessing at what's the issue here, but as I read it, PS3 is using a low-resolution particle buffer to save bandwidth on multiple alphablended draws, and is using a low quality water map. U2 avoids the heavily blended particle overdraw situation on the whole, and can afford higher resolution water normalmaps.
Well yes, the refraction texture is just the rendered scene, so it doesn't have to be lower resolution. But the point stands, water generally doesn't have to be transparent. So in such a case rendering water at lower resolution buffer and compositing it doesn't save you much. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what is being argued.
Certainly the resolution of the reflection/refraction textures are very important, although careful work on the distortion function can have a huge impact here (texture cache misses, for example are probably the biggest potential performance killer for such effects).
Certainly the resolution of the reflection/refraction textures are very important, although careful work on the distortion function can have a huge impact here (texture cache misses, for example are probably the biggest potential performance killer for such effects).
Not knowing what feature of Bioshock's water deepbrown was talking about, I'm probably misunderstanding as much as you!
It's just a pixelated mess, rendered at the same resolution at every particle and effect in the game, regardless of the scenario (water on stairs, mere puddles etc). Have a look at some direct comparison:
http://www.lensoftruth.com/?p=17989
It's very jarring.
http://www.lensoftruth.com/?p=17989
It's very jarring.
The problem of bioshock 2 on the ps3 it isn't even the reflection but more the low res bumping/ shaders effects of the water really noticeable. And the reflection with a properly AA filter wouldn't even visible but I think even so it isn't the worsen part. imho bioshock 2 on the ps3 seems more a porting of 360 version with downgrades than a separate developing. For what I remember even fallout 3 ps3 shows more bumping/shaders effects of the 360 version, so I guess if you comprimes something at least add different details with the resources left ...a real disappoint to me to see bioshock 2 not doing that on the ps3.Not knowing what feature of Bioshock's water deepbrown was talking about, I'm probably misunderstanding as much as you!
Last edited by a moderator:
The last comparison pic on that Lens of Truth comparison shows a diabolical 'water'. Extremely low resolution. Looks like low-res normal+specular maps to me.
Hell yeah...
isn't it too much lower? I can't believe that better would be impossible. At least an AA filter...
Last edited by a moderator:
Looks well beyond a simple quartering of resolution. I'd need to see a full-size screengrab to hazarda guess what resolution they're at, but 1/16th is likely. Perhaps something even more problematic than just low-resolution textures is also in effect here?Hell yeah...
There could also be the type of normal map compression compounding the effect of being lower res.
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/9/6/4/5/0/1/PS3_000.jpg.jpg
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/9/6/4/5/0/1/360_000.jpg.jpg
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/9/6/4/5/0/1/PS3_010.jpg.jpg
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/9/6/4/5/0/1/360_010.jpg.jpg
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/9/6/4/5/0/1/PS3_000.jpg.jpg
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/9/6/4/5/0/1/360_000.jpg.jpg
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/9/6/4/5/0/1/PS3_010.jpg.jpg
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/9/6/4/5/0/1/360_010.jpg.jpg
Lower resolution reflection maps were quite common a few years ago, especially in racing games with shiny cars. This seems to be the same case to me - the reflective + refractive water is rendered into a separate buffer, which is 1/2 sized or so.
See this image:
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/9/6/4/5/0/8/Sub_Res_003.jpg.jpg
...although, to be precise, there doesn't seem to be any water in this particular shot. But this other one's behind a waterfall IMHO:
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/9/6/4/5/0/8/Sub_Res_001.jpg.jpg
See this image:
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/9/6/4/5/0/8/Sub_Res_003.jpg.jpg
...although, to be precise, there doesn't seem to be any water in this particular shot. But this other one's behind a waterfall IMHO:
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/9/6/4/5/0/8/Sub_Res_001.jpg.jpg
The second shot is behind a glass window.
Window (you can see the double pixel wide edges on the character's collar)
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/9/6/4/5/0/1/PS3_017.jpg.jpg
no Window
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/9/6/4/5/0/1/PS3_018.jpg.jpg
Window (you can see the double pixel wide edges on the character's collar)
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/9/6/4/5/0/1/PS3_017.jpg.jpg
no Window
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/9/6/4/5/0/1/PS3_018.jpg.jpg
I think one should also consider the player character cause he's a big daddy wearing a helmet with a transparent visorThe second shot is behind a glass window.
Window (you can see the double pixel wide edges on the character's collar)
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/9/6/4/5/0/1/PS3_017.jpg.jpg
no Window
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/9/6/4/5/0/1/PS3_018.jpg.jpg
That said the difference between the glass shot & no glass shot looks to be atleast 1/2.
Sigfried1977
Legend
The water in Uncharted reflects, refracts and is perfectly transparent actually (even the murky soup in Borneo is. You can see Nate's feet and the ground just fine). No pixelated mess anywhere. Resolution doesn't seem to be any lower.
You mean quarter resolution, halved in both dimensions.
That still doesn't seem to cover the splodginess of the water though. I'm wondering if it could be an AF issue as well? The normal maps aren't just 'chunky' but smeared to Betsy. Quarter resolution shouldn't look that bad. 
Reflections in Uncharted 2 are very low resolution. Naughty Dog just does a better job at hiding it:
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2366/uncharted2amongthieves2c.jpg
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9929/uncharted2amongthieves1.jpg
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7192/uncharted2amongthievesml.jpg
Sigfried1977
Legend
At least the reflections do reflect both characters and environments properly. 9/10 games don't even do that. (they reflect something alright, but generally not what they are supposed to)
1st image shows lowres reflection that looks incorrect, perhaps static(?). But yeah Bioshock 2 results are quite bad though the game supposed to have lots of water and transparencies.
Similar threads
