The Game Technology discussion thread *Read first post before posting*
- Thread starter Shifty Geezer
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Right, so it's a matter of 'cheap and cheerful' for someone not looking for all the bells and whistles. Something that'd fit well with PhyreEngine for introductory and small-scale developers.
I though PhysX which is optimized for the ps3 is free even for commericial projects.
Yes 1msec for a couple pieces of rope is very poor, then again perhaps there is a inherent fixed cost (i.e. 100 ropes is perhaps only 2 msec)
Though rope/ragdolls are very expensive to do, due to the constraining factors. From my testing even a meaty PC struggles with 100 ragdolls (bruteforce)
Yes 1msec for a couple pieces of rope is very poor, then again perhaps there is a inherent fixed cost (i.e. 100 ropes is perhaps only 2 msec)
Though rope/ragdolls are very expensive to do, due to the constraining factors. From my testing even a meaty PC struggles with 100 ragdolls (bruteforce)
I don't know if old , update about wardevil engine:
' Whitehurst has also revealed that Digi-Guys longstanding project a thirdperson shooter called WarDevil, is being developed on the PS3 as lead platform.Speaking in the latest issue of Edge Magazine, Whitehurst reveals a string of eyebrow-raising details about WarDevil, a game that runs at 1080p, at 60fps.The project uses a unique pre-calculated texture system, which Whitehurst says 'gives us the ability to have an enormous amount of textures on-screen, at a fidelity we can use in 35mm or 65mm formats without altering them.' Describing the textures as 'Hollywood grade', he reveals in the magazine that WarDevil utilises the PS3's texture bandwidth to support 1k of texture for every square meter of gameworld, at 1024x1024, while the characters faces are rendered with 2k face textures at 2048x2048.'It's not dissimilar from many normal industry practices' adds Whitehurst, 'but we pushed it in another direction by holding colour, grading, lighting, diffuse, specular and even bump maps in a single PCTS [pre-calculated texture system] data structure. This information lets us separate it into separate channels for complex effects.'
source http://www.develop-online.net/news/32943/Sonys-HD-development-hype-was-right
' Whitehurst has also revealed that Digi-Guys longstanding project a thirdperson shooter called WarDevil, is being developed on the PS3 as lead platform.Speaking in the latest issue of Edge Magazine, Whitehurst reveals a string of eyebrow-raising details about WarDevil, a game that runs at 1080p, at 60fps.The project uses a unique pre-calculated texture system, which Whitehurst says 'gives us the ability to have an enormous amount of textures on-screen, at a fidelity we can use in 35mm or 65mm formats without altering them.' Describing the textures as 'Hollywood grade', he reveals in the magazine that WarDevil utilises the PS3's texture bandwidth to support 1k of texture for every square meter of gameworld, at 1024x1024, while the characters faces are rendered with 2k face textures at 2048x2048.'It's not dissimilar from many normal industry practices' adds Whitehurst, 'but we pushed it in another direction by holding colour, grading, lighting, diffuse, specular and even bump maps in a single PCTS [pre-calculated texture system] data structure. This information lets us separate it into separate channels for complex effects.'
source http://www.develop-online.net/news/32943/Sonys-HD-development-hype-was-right
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Prophecy2k
Veteran
Eyebrow raising indeed...
They still haven't shown anything in game to demonstrate their tech, so at this point it's nothing to get excited about any more than LAIR's incredible technologies. That game didn't look anything like its advertising media and tech demos.
I think soon could show it, if I remember correctly from the half of october was scheduled something.
MazingerDUDE
Regular
http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/series/3dcg/20090601_170531.html
I've read some interesting article regarding triple buffering on HD consoles.
The article is about RE5 tech explained by Capcom programmers, and in the later part Capcom tech lead Masao IJyuuin specifically mentions about tech differences between 360 & PS3 version of RE5.
He first mentions that 360 is using double buffering, and PS3 is triple buffered. While PS3 version's average frame rate is lower than the 360 version, it's tear free when frame rate dips below 30.
And he says '360 is unable to use triple buffering due to its hardware limitation of 10MB edram'
Another intriguing part is that RE5 PS3 version does NOT use PS EDGE for geometry processing.
This is a translation of the full text
'The game could've run faster if we had used the PS EDGE, however EDGE itself takes up extra memory, and its vertex data had to be stored in the main memory which caused us trouble on memory optimization So not this time. Instead we used RSX acceleration library called 'SPU Patch' in which SPUs help shader workload of RSX resulting increased overall performance'
RE5 pushes 3~5 million polys per frame which includes shadow maps & other not visible stuffs. The actual visible geometry on screen is around 500,000.
The main characters are composed of 15,000 polys, and in cut scenes higher quality versions are being used, made of 20,000 polys with 4000 on head alone.
The enemy characters are made of 4000 polys with 2 LOD levels that are 2000 polys (mid range) & 500 polys (far away)
I've read some interesting article regarding triple buffering on HD consoles.
The article is about RE5 tech explained by Capcom programmers, and in the later part Capcom tech lead Masao IJyuuin specifically mentions about tech differences between 360 & PS3 version of RE5.
He first mentions that 360 is using double buffering, and PS3 is triple buffered. While PS3 version's average frame rate is lower than the 360 version, it's tear free when frame rate dips below 30.
And he says '360 is unable to use triple buffering due to its hardware limitation of 10MB edram'
Another intriguing part is that RE5 PS3 version does NOT use PS EDGE for geometry processing.
This is a translation of the full text
'The game could've run faster if we had used the PS EDGE, however EDGE itself takes up extra memory, and its vertex data had to be stored in the main memory which caused us trouble on memory optimization So not this time. Instead we used RSX acceleration library called 'SPU Patch' in which SPUs help shader workload of RSX resulting increased overall performance'
RE5 pushes 3~5 million polys per frame which includes shadow maps & other not visible stuffs. The actual visible geometry on screen is around 500,000.
The main characters are composed of 15,000 polys, and in cut scenes higher quality versions are being used, made of 20,000 polys with 4000 on head alone.
The enemy characters are made of 4000 polys with 2 LOD levels that are 2000 polys (mid range) & 500 polys (far away)
Well finally some real info, there must be a good reason why not one game uses triple buffering despite the system's advantage in usable memory. Tearing is not advantagous, no matter where it is on screen.
Indeed. eDRAM is not a limit.
It doesn't, you can dodeca-buffer if you want to. I have no clue why people keep bringing up edram as the limitation, it has absolutely nothing to do with it. I mean, what do they think about games that use all 10mb on mrt? Do they think those games are single buffered because edram is fully used during the render pass? I don't get it.
DrJay24 said:
Wait, you are supposed to fight it, say that they must be lazy devs, must have done a poor port, they don't know the hardware, etc. Oh wait, they are knocking the 360! Of course, silly me it all makes sense now. Many devs over many years can say the PS3 can't do 'x' and of course people on this forum will refuse to believe it, but a single dev says the 360 can't do 'y' and it's automatically 'real info'. Gotcha.
I'm not gonna waste my time fighting it anymore, I'll let people believe whatever lets them sleep better at night.
That is basically how it has been. It's never really been worth fighting. It was a losing battle since E3 2005. I will as this? Why don't other developers us dynamic AA like Capcom does?
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Prophecy2k
Veteran
Joker your "championing" for the 360 and tone of your post sounds more "fanboy-ish" than many posts I've read on this forum. You're one of the few folks on here qualified to give a valid opinion based on your tangible experience working with both consoles... hence no need to stoop to "their" level with posts like that.
In any case... I think the quote from the capcom dev could possibly have simply been misinterpreted...?
Joker did say that you can do it on the hardware and had a lengthy discussion with people as to why it was not being used. Now it is true that Joker didn't go deep into detail but like most devs on here you could assume NDA has something to do with it but he did say you can do it on the 360. Some of the post that followed that could be seen as insulting especially the "real info part" considering that Joker454 is here has provided a great deal of info he should be given the benefit of the doubt...that hasn't really happened in the discussion of triple buffering.
There is likely something in MTs engine that makes it impossible or just simply too hard to do. Maybe it just can't be done in RE5 for whatever reason just like MSAA was hard to do in Unreal Engine 3. Maybe that info is already avalible in some of the older presentations done on MT. Their answer isn't really that much more detailed than what Joker said before on this issue. What is the hardware limitation of Edram? There has to be a more detailed reason for what the Capcom developer said just like there is likely a more detailed reason for what Joker said. The question is can anyone actually divulge this info without getting into trouble.
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The forum is plagued with example of Joker being right in regard to the fans attitude (and for the whole internet...). What I hope is that it won't get too hard on his nerves
Just because you agree with someone does not make them correct, especially about things which are so subjective.
OT talk
I don't have to agree with what Joker says overall in case of triple buffering he has been pretty clear. It's the same about ps3 Os memory footprint and so on. Some points are repeatedly ignored wether they come from joker's mouth or not that's it. There is nothing subjective in this regard. Something subjective is the answer to this question: "which system do you think is overall better?" As systems have pro and con and are pretty balanced there can't be one truth.
L. Scofield
Veteran
Actually, in this particular case, it's not really subjective. These claims can be verified, they not just opinions.
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