The Game Technology discussion thread *Read first post before posting*

[scently]

Honestly i didn't seem to notice any tearing in re5 on 360. However after reading some comments on this forum, i started noticing the said tearing during cutscene. Now a question i would like to ask is "would you prefer to have screen tearing but at a constant 30fps or v-synced but with frame drops.I ask because as i said i didnt notice the torn frames on re5 during gameplay, but playing MGS4 earlier today i keep wishing that it was 60fps even if it wasn't v-synced.
Mazinger i think it would be better to wait until we see a retail game from Crytech before concluding that it is impossible for them to achieve v-sync on xbox360.As i am sure that there are games on xbox360 and ps3 that are v-synced, douuble buffered AND has a stable frame rate.

 

[liolio]

Not really relevant but anandtech seems to have an interesting article (I'm about to read it) about triple buffering and v-synch. You can find it here
(I think it got posted back in time too but... anyway can't hurt ) .

OK read the article, obviously triple buffering seems like the best tech but if you think of perf goals for most console games (ie as solid as possible 30FPS) to me it seems to bring nothing more on the table:
IQ is the same, and in regard to input lag you're unlikely to have a "newer" frame in the triple buffered rendition of an hypothetical render. Anand example while explanatory (ie 300fps while refresh rate is 60Hz) is a quiet a bit less relevant when you render output will indeed vary between 25 and 35 fps.

Other than I curious about something, how from a framebuffer capture tell apart triple buffering and v-synched double buffering?

Back the article linked (xna development), it seems like they may be something about triple buffering and Xna (not implemented in the API) and that Ms implement some form of triple buffering on the 360.
Overall may feel is that triple buffering Ms implementation through their API may not be the best but they don't care as most games aims @30fps thus the difference in both tech is minimal while the superior tech consumes more memory.

 

[assurdum]

Not really relevant but anandtech seems to have an interesting article (I'm about to read it) about triple buffering and v-synch. You can find it here
(I think it got posted back in time too but... anyway can't hurt ) .

OK read the article, obviously triple buffering seems like the best tech but if you think of perf goals for most console games (ie as solid as possible 30FPS) to me it seems to bring nothing more on the table:
IQ is the same, and in regard to input lag you're unlikely to have a "newer" frame in the triple buffered rendition of an hypothetical render. Anand example while explanatory (ie 300fps while refresh rate is 60Hz) is a quiet a bit less relevant when you render output will indeed vary between 25 and 35 fps.

Other than I curious about something, how from a framebuffer capture tell apart triple buffering and v-synched double buffering?

Back the article linked (xna development), it seems like they may be something about triple buffering and Xna (not implemented in the API) and that Ms implement some form of triple buffering on the 360.
Overall may feel is that triple buffering Ms implementation through their API may not be the best but they don't care as most games aims @30fps thus the difference in both tech is minimal while the superior tech consumes more memory.

OT my feel is sony don't care about gpu but only of the cpu but seems anyone don't care of that when we talking of performances of both system. I'm not referring to anyone in particular, don't get me wrong.

 

[assurdum]

Honestly i didn't seem to notice any tearing in re5 on 360. However after reading some comments on this forum, i started noticing the said tearing during cutscene. Now a question i would like to ask is "would you prefer to have screen tearing but at a constant 30fps or v-synced but with frame drops.I ask because as i said i didnt notice the torn frames on re5 during gameplay, but playing MGS4 earlier today i keep wishing that it was 60fps even if it wasn't v-synced.
Mazinger i think it would be better to wait until we see a retail game from Crytech before concluding that it is impossible for them to achieve v-sync on xbox360. As i am sure that there are games on xbox360 and ps3 that are v-synced, douuble buffered AND has a stable frame rate.

Mazinger said nothing of that. But probably 360 will suffer tearing compared the ps3 version at the end. Less to now, sure.

 

[liolio]

OT my feel is sony don't care about gpu but only of the cpu but seems anyone don't care of that when we talking of performances of both system. I'm not referring to anyone in particular, don't get me wrong.

Excuse me but I don't really understand what you mean.

 

[Mastperf]

http://forums.xna.com/forums/p/31951/182981.aspx#182981


the linked forum posts above seem to indicate that the triple buffering on 360 is not as easy to incorporate as joker claims. Even the most hardcore tech guys like Crytech couldn't get it running on the 360 version of their engine,I guess there's nothing more to discuss about whether 360 is capable of triple buffering or not.

Considering joker has already shipped a game triple buffered there wasn't really a question of if it could at all.
You guys are trying to paint joker as dishonest and that's just disrespectful. He's one of the most active developers on here and his word should be plenty enough for you. He spends half his time trying to be informative and the other half trying to defend stuff that he knows as fact, while being called out by people who simply have 0% experience developing for either console.


Do you have a link to where Crytech said they couldn't get triple buffering working on the 360?

 

[assurdum]

Considering joker has already shipped a game triple buffered there wasn't really a question of if it could at all.
You guys are trying to paint joker as dishonest and that's just disrespectful. He's one of the most active developers on here and his word should be plenty enough for you. He spends half his time trying to be informative and the other half trying to defend stuff that he knows as fact, while being called out by people who simply have 0% experience developing for either console.


Do you have a link to where Crytech said they couldn't get triple buffering working on the 360?

What? Just not think the same of him is paint as dishonest & is disrespectful? What the hell you are talking? Big respect for his work but to be a developer not mean to have the absolute knowledge. Especially when we talking of the ps3 'alien' hardware vs 360. However there are a link in the previous page. Just reading at least.

 

[Mastperf]

the linked forum posts above seem to indicate that the triple buffering on 360 is not as easy to incorporate as joker claims.

Pretty much means he thinks joker was being dishonest.

What? Just not think the same of him is paint as dishonest & is disrespectful? What the hell you are talking? Big respect for his work but to be a developer not mean to have the absolute knowledge. Especially when we talking of the ps3 'alien' hardware.

You're right , he doesn't have absolute knowledge but he does have infinitely more experience than everyone in this thread questioning him.

 

[assurdum]

Pretty much means he thinks joker was being dishonest.


You're right , he doesn't have absolute knowledge but he does have infinitely more experience than everyone in this thread questioning him.

Technical forum. However I haven't seen nothing as disrespectful to now.

 

[Prophecy2k]

Pretty much means he thinks joker was being dishonest.

Or could be interpretted to mean that he thinks joker is far smarter than every other Xbox 360 dev

Your inpretation is a little subjective there. No one's trying to disrespect Joker or his work. Plus, I'm sure if Joker felt he was being disrespected or regarded as dishonest, I'm sure he can defend his own cause.

 

[Mastperf]

Yes, technical forum. He was asked a technical question and he gave a technical answer based on personal experience. The answer wasn't good enough for some so they've spent the rest of the time trying to prove him wrong.

 

[Mastperf]

Or could be interpretted to mean that he thinks joker is far smarter than every other Xbox 360 dev

Your inpretation is a little subjective there. No one's trying to disrespect Joker or his work. Plus, I'm sure if Joker felt he was being disrespected or regarded as dishonest, I'm sure he can defend his own cause.

Maybe I am taking it the wrong way, who knows. This is just too often the case with joker because of his preference for 360 development. It's not like he's been returning to the thread to defend his position. He gave his informed explanation and it wasn't good enough for some so they searched the net trying to prove him wrong. He isn't able to give a super deep answers to the inner workings of Xenos due to NDA, so the most he can do is give simple, clear answers. If that isn't enough then why should he bother at all in the future?

 

[assurdum]

Yes, technical forum. He was asked a technical question and he gave a technical answer based on personal experience. The answer wasn't good enough for some so they've spent the rest of the time trying to prove him wrong.

And ...what's wrong to sustain a different opinion in a forum?

 

[Mastperf]

And ...what's wrong to sustain a different opinion in a forum?

Tech is fact, not opinion. You can prefer one design over another, but there are only cold hard facts when it comes down to it. Joker wasn't giving his opinion based on experience, he was telling facts based on it.

 

[assurdum]

Tech is fact, not opinion. You can prefer one design over another, but there are only cold hard facts when it comes down to it. Joker wasn't giving his opinion based on experience, he was telling facts based on it.

No. It isn't exactly so. When we talking of developing exist a multiple way to choise, facts are relative. And reading joker post seems vsync is so easy on the 360, reading in another forum someone explain there is a reason reverse because it didn't. If you prefer the 'facts', shows a tendency of ps3 to have triple buffer without problem has the same level of tearing in a 360 double buffer game, so the 'facts' seems to indicate triple buffer is more suitable on the ps3. It's that reason because me and the others persisted to sustain a different opinion. Anyone here has insult joker but if for you thinking different and sustain a different opinion is to insult, it's an another story.

 

[AlNom]

Pretty much means he thinks joker was being dishonest.

Tbh, when I found the xna thread, it was just interesting to discover that there was an alternative to triple buffering that the 360 devs have access to. Triple buffering is triple buffering. Whoopedy do. Devs make decisions. What people prefer is not supposed to be the nature of the thread though.

I'd just like to know what this pseudo triple buffer is.

 

[Mastperf]

Tbh, when I found the xna thread, it was just interesting to discover that there was an alternative to triple buffering that the 360 devs have access to. Triple buffering is triple buffering. Whoopedy do. Devs make decisions.

I'd just like to know what this pseudo triple buffer is.

I know you were just sharing what you had found. Thanks to you I think we have the answer as to why joker wasn't able to go in to deep detail. Whatever it's doing is different and likely covered under NDA.
It might be that it's a little more work and needs to be supported early in development, but it's no more costly than on PS3 and it works.

 

[Prophecy2k]

Maybe I am taking it the wrong way, who knows. This is just too often the case with joker because of his preference for 360 development. It's not like he's been returning to the thread to defend his position. He gave his informed explanation and it wasn't good enough for some so they searched the net trying to prove him wrong. He isn't able to give a super deep answers to the inner workings of Xenos due to NDA, so the most he can do is give simple, clear answers. If that isn't enough then why should he bother at all in the future?

You seem all too eager to accept the "facts" Joker stated about triple buffering plus v-sync being trivial to impliment on 360 hardware, but yet you ignore the "facts" that there are many 360 games released by various different developers which present examples of games running without triple buffering plus v-sync, while clearly exhibiting significant screen tearing, where the PS3 versions seem to impliment triple buffering + v-sync with the addition of a small amount of input lag. Additionally you ignore the "facts" that other 360 developers coding on the XNA platform and posting on the XNA forums, seem to be saying something contrary to what Joker initially stated.

What assurdum and a few others are implying, is not that Joker is a lyer or a fraud. Just that there seems to be a disconnect between what he's saying, what we see in many released multiplatform games, and what other developers like Crytek and some XNA devs are saying.

Again, there's no finger pointing, lie-accusing, or trying to "search the internet to disprove Joker because we have some tacit il-regard for him" going on in this thread. Merely a rational discussion of ALL the facts in order to explore the possibility of the implimentation (and non implimentation) of triple buffering plus v-sync being connected to a HW conseideration between the PS3 and 360 or merely a dev dicision based on a trade off between input lag and screen tearing.

 

[assurdum]

I know you were just sharing what you had found. Thanks to you I think we have the answer as to why joker wasn't able to go in to deep detail. Whatever it's doing is different and likely covered under NDA.
It might be that it's a little more work and needs to be supported early in development, but it's no more costly than on PS3 and it works.

Depend.

 

[Prophecy2k]

Tbh, when I found the xna thread, it was just interesting to discover that there was an alternative to triple buffering that the 360 devs have access to. Triple buffering is triple buffering. Whoopedy do. Devs make decisions. What people prefer is not supposed to be the nature of the thread though.

I'd just like to know what this pseudo triple buffer is.

I know what you mean there... now that does sound intriguing