The Big Forza 2 Thread *

22psi said:
Awesome comparison pics between PGR3 and FM2 on the FM forums:

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/45871/ShowPost.aspx

...Even Project Gotham Racing 3, which was a launch title and developed on non final hardware looks better by a significant margin.

:oops: I guess I was wrong!

I have to give FM2 credit, it looks at least as good as PGR3 and the lighting looks a lot less wonky then I had thought. Given the fact that the game is slaighted to run at 60FPS with 4X antialiasing, and the fact that the game has not finished development I think what Turn 10 has shown so far is pretty decent.
 
:oops: I guess I was wrong!

I have to give FM2 credit, it looks at least as good as PGR3 and the lighting looks a lot less wonky then I had thought. Given the fact that the game is slaighted to run at 60FPS with 4X antialiasing, and the fact that the game has not finished development I think what Turn 10 has shown so far is pretty decent.

Decent!? It has twice the framerate, destructible car models, 4xAA, a higher resolution with better lighting and reflections than the best looking racer on the market. That's far beyond decent if you ask me....
 
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:oops: I guess I was wrong!

I have to give FM2 credit, it looks at least as good as PGR3 and the lighting looks a lot less wonky then I had thought. Given the fact that the game is slaighted to run at 60FPS with 4X antialiasing, and the fact that the game has not finished development I think what Turn 10 has shown so far is pretty decent.
Aren't they both from the photo mode? Not sure how it's relevant to realtime rendering in the both games.
 
Decent!? It has twice the framerate, destructible car models, 4xAA, a higher resolution with better lighting and reflections than the best looking racer on the market. That's far beyond decent if you ask me.

I know some people really want 60FPS and 4x antialiasing, but if that means that FM2's visuals are going to suffer to the point of being only marginally better than a launch game, I would have rather Turn 10 just focused on 30FPS with 2x AA or no AA at all. I was expecting a big jump between PGR3 and Forza 2 in all areas of visuals, not just superficial things like framerate, resolution, antialiasing and damage models. I want better car models, detailed environments (what happened to the 3D grass?), better textures, etc. From what I have seen of FM2, it looks like what PGR3 could have been with a couple extra months of development, not a second generation Xbox 360 game!
 
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I think the Forza team emphasis has always been on the sim aspect first, visuals a close second. PGR has always been an arcade "look good" racer, not a sim, so the goals were a bit different and the outcome reflects that.

Though I think the Forza2 car models look superb... hopefully in game they will retain the same shaders and models. I thought PGR3 looked great, especially in photomode... now when I see those comparison shots, I think "were the car shaders and lighting really that flat?"

There is something just a little bit off in the Forza2 environments though. Maybe lighting, maybe texturing, maybe filtering, maybe modeling... I dunno, but something could be improved, just not sure what exactly.
 
Well, from the comparison shots, PGR3 has more polys per car, which is nice. However, the reflections and shadows are far superior in Forza 2.
 
I know some people really want 60FPS and 4x antialiasing, but if that means that FM2's visuals are going to suffer to the point of being only marginally better than a launch game, I would have rather Turn 10 just focused on 30FPS with 2x AA or no AA at all. I was expecting a big jump between PGR3 and Forza 2 in all areas of visuals, not just superficial things like framerate, resolution, antialiasing and damage models. I want better car models, detailed environments (what happened to the 3D grass?), better textures, etc. From what I have seen of FM2, it looks like what PGR3 could have been with a couple extra months of development, not a second generation Xbox 360 game!


Yeah I'm with that. You know Forza's graphics are going to suffer because of the 60fps mandate.
 
I guess I'll be the one to take 60fps, destructible car models, 4xAA, HDR then. 2 times the frame rate with comparable car models is nothing to scoff at.

BTW those shots are not even final shots as per Che. ;)
 
Well, from the comparison shots, PGR3 has more polys per car, which is nice. However, the reflections and shadows are far superior in Forza 2.
whilst i agree forza looks better the reflections in it are are way way over emphasized,
do they look better? perhaps.
do they look more realistic? no
 
There's no motion blur in gameplay. It was cut because the Forza team decided at 60 fps, the human eye provided all the motion blur they needed.

Not true. From what I have read the eye can actually sense subtle changes to 72fps and in some people above that. But imagine this for a moment: You are looking out a window, and a car comes by FASTER than 1/60th of a second. Would you see the car? Yes, if you didn't blink. But it would be a blur. Argueing that 60fps is all that is necessary isn't true because your eyes are also picking up motion--not just the "tranisition" of one frame to the next.

I know some people really want 60FPS and 4x antialiasing, but if that means that FM2's visuals are going to suffer to the point of being only marginally better than a launch game, I would have rather Turn 10 just focused on 30FPS with 2x AA or no AA at all.

And all the sim fans would kill you.

Seriously, how much bickering and, "I would take downgraded graphics for 60fps" did we hear for PGR3? Personally, I like the sense of motion and speed PGR3 has for 30fps and I could personally live with it. But I can totally understand the stance, "It is a sim, give me 60fps no matter what" crowd.

In reality you would like both, but going 60fps always means you will be cutting some corners from the graphics. No there is a studio that tends to be able to hit 60fps as well as getting graphics on par with the best out there even at the 60fps restriction...

I was expecting a big jump between PGR3 and Forza 2 in all areas of visuals, not just superficial things like framerate, resolution, antialiasing and damage models.

Why? What has Turn10 done to convince people they can take 2x framerate hit, 2x AA hit, and a 40% jump in resolution and put PGR3 to shame?

For all the restrictions of a launch title PGR3 still stands out as the best racer, imo, on ANY console.

Btw, most poeple wouldn't call damage models that impact gameplay and better IQ superficial. They may not be important to you (or to me) but that doesn't make them superficial... well, it does because ANYTHING graphical is superficial :!: But not in the sense you mean... it really depends on the gamer. If it didn't no one would want 1080p games (which I think is a bad compromise for most genres but some disagree).

Yeah I'm with that. You know Forza's graphics are going to suffer because of the 60fps mandate.

Yet it is a mandate of the fans of the genre. I don't think Phil, for example, cares that some detail has to be dropped from a game to go from 30fps to 60fps. Actually I know he doesn't.

It could hurt general sales though. I think this is where GT has always been able to shine: While they could do more graphically at 30fps, their end product at 60fps was always competitive with other games (even when the competition was only 30fps), so effectively you got the best of both worlds.

FM2 looks to be shaping up where it could be competitive, if not slightly better, graphically than PGR3. If that is the case (all PR aside) and it delivers a great sim experience I think you could do a lot worse than a "best looking current racer on the market" + being a sim. Will GT and PGR4 pass it by? My guess is yes, and I had higher hopes for a flagship title, but then again being PGR3+ in graphics (if they reach that) and being a deep sim would create a pretty decent package that fans of the genre would have a hard time ignoring.
 
At 720p, w/ 4xAA and 60fps, it's gauranteed that this will blow away the PGR3 ingame graphics, rendered at 1042x600, 2xAA and 30fps.

Photo mode comparisons are all well and good, but when playing PGR3 doesn't look anything like it's photomode, so it's really a meaningless comparison. Forza should look alot better in comparison to it's photomode, as it's rendered at true 720p, with 4xAA and a nice smooth 60fps.

As of now, the GFX are not as good as GTHD true enough, but you know, whatever, it looks damn good, and I just can't wait to play it.
 
As of now, the GFX are not as good as GTHD true enough, but you know, whatever, it looks damn good, and I just can't wait to play it.

Well the cars are looking better in GT, but I think GTHD looks weird, because the cars look great, but the environment is pretty nasty. GT 5 probably will be a very pretty game all-round.
 
I can only think you've never actually played PGR, because while the PR screens do look better, the actual gameplay doesn't even come close to what we're seeing in these shots. Of course, these are PR shots as well, so it's a pretty meaningless comparison until we get some ingame stuff.

How can you tell the gameplay from the screenshots?
 
The FM2 and PRG3 poly counts on the car models look pretty close. I see a couple of spots where the FM2 models look like they have more polygons in an area, and perhaps a few more than that where the reverse is true. But pretty close counts, I'd guess, with maybe a slight edge to PRG3. I'd bet most of the effort was on redistributing polys to get a better look, not necessarily trying to substantially lower poly counts. But I'd love to hear from a dev what the actual comparison looks like!

Interestingly, while I like the shaders for the FM2 paint much better, the glass in PGR3 on the whole looks better. The Ferrari back glass and headlight covers in FM2 maybe look better (back glass is more of a toss up), but the front windshields in PGR3 all look a lot better to me, and not just because of the helmet inside.
 
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