Swedish foreign minister stabbed

[CosmoKramer]

As a side note do you always tell people to "shut up" when they are inquiring into matters that they would like to learn about? Now that could be interpreted as an awfully ill-mannered disposition.

You didn't ask, you declared. A marked difference.

 

[CosmoKramer]

Sweden is not particularly diverse.

I'm sure that's true for Luleå.

However, people in the three bigger cities would probably diasgree (I'm from Göteborg). Take Malmö, over a quarter of the population are immigrants.

 

[Sabastian]

Sweden is not particularly diverse. Going to Canada the difference is striking. Most immigrants are from the other nordic countries. Here's some numbers, in swedish though, but should be fairly readable for non-swedes too:

http://immi.se/migration/statistik/20grupper.htm
Norge = Norway
Tyskland = Germany
Storbritannien = Great brittain

Yeah thanks for the link on that. There is relatively few visible minorities in Sweden. Does Sweden apply Affirmative Action type programs for people because they are from a different country say like for example Finland or Americans? Heh, could I say for example (not that they would let me in ) move to Sweden and have state funded employment based on the fact that I am not Swedish speaking?

I know that Sweden has an extensive program in place for women's employment, but they are not really a visible minority. So it is kind of a different bias but is still encompassed by the same program. Here is something you should consider possibly with regards to woman's employment. Suppose one day finally women achieve the same levels of employment as men. Would not it be a prudent thing to end the program that is prejudice against males?

Have you ever read an add for employment that states something to the extent "white males need not apply."? Would you consider that a just arrangement.

 

[CosmoKramer]

*sigh*

 

[Sabastian]

I have no links for you I just wonder why you don't think "Other europeans" would not be visible? Cultures in Europe are vastly different, there are no "Europeans" with a common property as some try to append to us. While there may be/are people that feel European (of which I'm one) they still don't feel they have particulary much in common with each other when dealing with their ordinary life. For instance I would feel a lot more at home in New York or Detroit than in Madrid or Rome or Prague. Could just be me and everybody I know though. :?

The largest immigrant group from a single country are the Finns I belive and they don't really stand out much at all and then there are large groups from the middle east, kurds, Iraqi's, turks and a whole slew of Ex Jugoslavs. The latter groups are much more noticable. As far as "blacks" go that doesn't put you in any particular ethnic group so "blacks" as a group doesn't exist in Sweden the way it does in USA.

In general (WARNING HUGE SWEEPING GENERALISATION AND THUS COMPLETELY USELESS) immigrants are less educated and thus also poorer. They also have a higher rate of unemployment, basically your lower class group. Not that there is anything surprising about this, lower classes have always existed and at this point in time they just happen to be mostly immigrants.

A more correct sentence would be that the lower class is made up from mostly immigrants and that other immigrant groups have succeded better.

Yeah that is what I thought there really are not that many racial differences in Sweden overall.

Aftonbladet isn't really a tabloid such as The Sun for instance. It has certainly moved in to tabloidesque waters for the last decade but it's not there yet IMO. As for your other comment I take great offence to that. It would imply that Swedish governments are not really elected and thus not influenced by the people.

Alright then it was the label of "tabloid" that put me off then. Is there any genuine conservative media that advocates smaller government, less taxation less government intervention as a legitimate form of government or would that be considered extremely right wing? No you should not be offended by what I am saying, rather I am more interested in the message that the media broadcasts in Sweden in general. Obviously they do not advocate small government, less taxation or less interventionist policies. I know that this is an assumption but based on the enduring big government in Sweden I think it is safe to say that there is not much of a call for a libertarian styled government. Such ideas I believe are not common in your more legitimate media I believe. I do not know that for sure I am learning as I go here as there is no way for me to determine that based on the resources available to me.

I guess you are talking about American media here. Swedish media watches the government with a very critical eye, from left to right. Swedish media seems however to be less prone to pushing agendas for their owners which I think is a good thing.

Yes sure but what does the conservative media say as to what should be done on spending, taxation and intervention policies? Is the call for less government too far right wing to be legitimate? I think there are all sorts of media in America or for that matter Canada that do not push the agenda of owners. Rather the media is able to print just about anything and in most cases there is both right and left journalist in a wide variety of publications.(Admittedly though the pro liberal bias is a tad more so though.) Would Fox News which is not horribly conservative necessarily be extremely right wing in Sweden?

Interestingly the same comment can be made for private networks. Your finding seems to hold little water. It's not like the BBC pulls all its stops when it comes to scrutinizing the government. Can the same thing be said about FOX networks?

I find the BBC has a tendency to criticize the government from a left wing stance in general. I would be the first to admit that Canadas CBC is worse from what I know, they are just horrible in terms of their left wing content.

Oh FOX is not the conservative think tank you believe anyhow. Only some of their articles are right of center.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,97254,00.html

 

[Moffell]

Yeah that is what I thought there really are not that many racial differences in Sweden overall.

Race, what a silly word. Do you define a Swede and an Italian to belong to the same race? Generally speaking they look different. Not to mention Kurds, chileans, albanians... If you mean there aren't physical discernable differences you are obviously wrong. Not really sure what conclusions you draw from that statement.

No you should not be offended by what I am saying, rather I am more interested in the message that the media broadcasts in Sweden in general. Obviously they do not advocate small government, less taxation or less interventionist policies. I know that this is an assumption but based on the enduring big government in Sweden I think it is safe to say that there is not much of a call for a libertarian styled government. Such ideas I believe are not common in your more legitimate media I believe. I do not know that for sure I am learning as I go here as there is no way for me to determine that based on the resources available to me.

Wow! For not knowing anything about Swedish media you sure draw some far out conclusions. What can I say... Everything above is completely wrong. Lol. For one thing the "big government" is actually very streamlined. Buerocracy is amazingly simple to work with in comparison for other countries that seems to do everything ad hoc. Try to file a police report in Italy VS Sweden and you'll know what I mean. Arguing that it does too much is OTOH valid but that doesn't mean it's interventionistic on the personal level.

And there is a lot of call for a libertarian government, not just by a majority atm but that may well change in the next election. Swedish democracy is alive and doing well thank you very much.

Yes sure but what does the conservative media say as to what should be done on spending, taxation and intervention policies?

All kinds of things. Some of it you would even agree with I dare say. Whether it would be enough for you to call it conservative is impossible for me to say.

Oh FOX is not the conservative think tank you believe anyhow. Only some of their articles are right of center.

Oh don't worry, I've never thought of FOX as a think tank of anything.

 

[Sabastian]

Race, what a silly word. Do you define a Swede and an Italian to belong to the same race? Generally speaking they look different. Not to mention Kurds, chileans, albanians... If you mean there aren't physical discernable differences you are obviously wrong. Not really sure what conclusions you draw from that statement.

Race is a silly word? My sakes. European countries are Caucasian meaning they are white that goes for Italians, Greeks etc. Blacks are a different race just as Asians are etc. A nationality is not a racial difference there is no visual differences overall between Italians, French, Germans or Swedish people. What is silly is to suggest you can determine someones nationality by looking at them using stereotypical notions.

Wow! For not knowing anything about Swedish media you sure draw some far out conclusions. What can I say... Everything above is completely wrong. Lol. For one thing the "big government" is actually very streamlined. Buerocracy is amazingly simple to work with in comparison for other countries that seems to do everything ad hoc. Try to file a police report in Italy VS Sweden and you'll know what I mean. Arguing that it does too much is OTOH valid but that doesn't mean it's interventionistic on the personal level.

And there is a lot of call for a libertarian government, not just by a majority atm but that may well change in the next election. Swedish democracy is alive and doing well thank you very much.

lol, what can I do outside of learn Swedish language to find out what their media says or get second hand info from Swedes such as yourself. By Big government I do not mean bureaucracy necessarily. By that I mean high taxation, heavy spending and a big employer of the voting public. BTW could you point me to one of these supposed legitimate news sources advocating small government etc.

All kinds of things. Some of it you would even agree with I dare say. Whether it would be enough for you to call it conservative is impossible for me to say.

Imagine that. I am interested in the mainstream media in Sweden advocating conservative in particular libertarian messages. Not some web page by some guy or whatever.

Oh don't worry, I've never thought of FOX as a think tank of anything.

lol, I left the door open for that one didn't I. FOX news is not bad news coverage at all.

 

[Humus]

Yeah thanks for the link on that. There is relatively few visible minorities in Sweden. Does Sweden apply Affirmative Action type programs for people because they are from a different country say like for example Finland or Americans? Heh, could I say for example (not that they would let me in ) move to Sweden and have state funded employment based on the fact that I am not Swedish speaking?

I know that Sweden has an extensive program in place for women's employment, but they are not really a visible minority. So it is kind of a different bias but is still encompassed by the same program. Here is something you should consider possibly with regards to woman's employment. Suppose one day finally women achieve the same levels of employment as men. Would not it be a prudent thing to end the program that is prejudice against males?

Have you ever read an add for employment that states something to the extent "white males need not apply."? Would you consider that a just arrangement.

I may just state that affirmative action is generally not applied at all. Nor is there any particular employment programs specially for women that I know of. Public sector does employ many women, but that's just because the public sector contains a lot of traditional women kinds of work, like health care, education etc. Affirmative action for women would be pretty useless anyway since most women work anyway.

As for immigrants. First we have skilled workers, and they can fix everything themselves so no action is needed for those. Then we have those who flee from wars and dictatorships. These often needs help to get integrated into the society, rather than live on benefits. The Swedish system is notoriously bad at that I might add. They are usually put through school, but then typically left on their own and not encouraged enough to get a job. But no affirmative action there either that I'm aware of.

The only kinds of affirmative action that I know of is in the government. There's no law or anything, but the government has set it as a goal to balance men/women ratio in the government close to 1:1, and that has worked out fairly well. But that's as far as it goes. There has been some people calling for affirmative action to get more women into the top positions in private business, but that's been widely rejected. It's rather an attitude change that needs to come from the business owners themselves.

 

[Sabastian]

I may just state that affirmative action is generally not applied at all. Nor is there any particular employment programs specially for women that I know of. Public sector does employ many women, but that's just because the public sector contains a lot of traditional women kinds of work, like health care, education etc. Affirmative action for women would be pretty useless anyway since most women work anyway.

As for immigrants. First we have skilled workers, and they can fix everything themselves so no action is needed for those. Then we have those who flee from wars and dictatorships. These often needs help to get integrated into the society, rather than live on benefits. The Swedish system is notoriously bad at that I might add. They are usually put through school, but then typically left on their own and not encouraged enough to get a job. But no affirmative action there either that I'm aware of.

The only kinds of affirmative action that I know of is in the government. There's no law or anything, but the government has set it as a goal to balance men/women ratio in the government close to 1:1, and that has worked out fairly well. But that's as far as it goes. There has been some people calling for affirmative action to get more women into the top positions in private business, but that's been widely rejected. It's rather an attitude change that needs to come from the business owners themselves.

Thanks for your honest answers Humus. While I am not sure you appreciate my probing into Swedish matters as ignorant as I am on things you don't give me a hard time about it. Kudos to you my friend.

 

[Humus]

<snip>Lots about media</snip>

Generally speaking, most media is quite independent, and few have a directly outspoken ideology. Most people publish articles from both left and right. I think that's a good thing. It also holds true for the state owned TV channels. In fact, they have explicit rules stating that they must remain neutral in all issues. They cannot promote any political parties above any other, or any particular religion, or commerical products (ad free TV is great btw ) etc. And it works. The state owned TV is the most reliable and balanced news channel indeed. In election time all parties get as much time in the air.
When it comes to private owned media, it's usually quite independent too. Take Aftonbladet for instance. Through the EMU debate they have published articles, interview and opinions from both sides, probably equally. In general, as long as it's a selling story it gets published, despite political agenda. The only groups that get excluded from media is extreme left and right, like commies/fascists/nazis etc.

 

[schmuck]

"Race is a silly word? My sakes. European countries are Caucasian meaning they are white that goes for Italians, Greeks etc. Blacks are a different race just as Asians are etc. A nationality is not a racial difference there is no visual differences overall between Italians, French, Germans or Swedish people. What is silly is to suggest you can determine someones nationality by looking at them using stereotypical notions. "

I dont intend do go in to a dicussion on what is race etc..

Anyway there is a diffrence between how most "italians" and southern europeans in general look and how most "swedes" look. A greek sticks out just as much as an asian do and they are both "immegrants" to most "swedes". I dont know how it is in the rest of europe but in sweden words as white or caucation is rarly if ever used, its either "immegrant" or "swede", and this is by looks. This will ofcourse change when todays immegrants and europe in general gets more integrated.

 

[Sxotty]

Humus I have a question, how does sweedish gov't television determine who is a party, like could you start the Humus party and get airtime? I mean I would think not, I am just curious how they go about it there. I think but am not sure that in the U.S. if you get >10% vote you get to be considered a party just like the other but somebody could and should correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Moffell]

Race is a silly word? My sakes. European countries are Caucasian meaning they are white that goes for Italians, Greeks etc. Blacks are a different race just as Asians are etc. A nationality is not a racial difference there is no visual differences overall between Italians, French, Germans or Swedish people. What is silly is to suggest you can determine someones nationality by looking at them using stereotypical notions.

Never said I could do that. It's however quite easy to single out people that doesn't fit the Swedish mold. There are for example very few kurds that could pass as Swedes, whether they are citizens or not. Italians would probably have more individuals fitting the mold and Norwegians and Finns would slip right through. So spotting certain immigrants is quite easy. If you were shown two crowds you wouldn't hesitate a second between which one was Swedish and which one was Italian, hell you you would only have to listen to the way conversations (language differences withstanding) were being held and you'd know. One could just as easily discriminate Kurds as blacks if one wanted too.


So yeah, race is such a silly word because it's useless for fitting them into a stereotype, somalians, african americans, nigerians are very different from each other so knowing they are black is useless. You can't expect a certain behaviour from someone because he's black whereas you'd expect the italian looking guy to act in a certain way. Now that is the Swedish situation, in the USA a black stereotype is much more "usefull" I'd imagine. Stereotypes can most certainly be a pain in the ass but they are also usefull there's no denying that otherwise we wouldn't have them.

BTW could you point me to one of these supposed legitimate news sources advocating small government etc.

Supposed? Anyway I'm not sure advocating is such a good word. It depends on how much antagonism you put in it I guess. www.sydsvenskan.se is a good newspaper. Calls itself liberal but it fits all the criteria you listed for a conservative newspaper.

 

[Moffell]

Humus I have a question, how does sweedish gov't television determine who is a party, like could you start the Humus party and get airtime? I mean I would think not, I am just curious how they go about it there. I think but am not sure that in the U.S. if you get >10% vote you get to be considered a party just like the other but somebody could and should correct me if I'm wrong.

There's a 4% threshhold for the Swedish parliment. If you're in you get airtime. You'll also be put up on the air if you are a credible enough party to be a contender. Vote wise not ideology wise that is. There was a real looney party called new democracy that made it into parliment in the beginning of the 90:s and they got a lot of airtime before that election. Same thing for the green party in 1994's election but they had been cast out in the previous election so they were more established.

 

[Humus]

Some good news finally. The police has now capture the guy they think is the murderer. I hope they got the right guy.

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/09/16/sweden.lindh/index.html