*spin-off* Wireless Vs Wired

[tongue_of_colicab]

All I have to do is play a video stream from hulu, or any of the US networks on my wireless laptop, and it will skip, stutter, stop on my wireless G network. If I want smooth streaming, I have to connect my laptop directly to my router. Solves all the problems.

Wireless on laptops is a total bitch. Probably even more because by default it will be set up for power saving so its very likely that it just wont be fast enough. But ofcourse that has nothing to do with gaming because now we are talking about bandwith rather than speed (How much bandwith does a online game require? I remember CS1.6 requires like 8kbs...).

If you change your laptop settings it would probably work because I have no problems streaming DVD to my netbook over wireless.

 

[DrJay24]

EDIT: Perfect example, my usually fast wireless ping to google just gave back:

Pinging www.l.google.com [74.125.19.106] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 74.125.19.106: bytes=32 time=754ms TTL=54
Reply from 74.125.19.106: bytes=32 time=797ms TTL=54
Reply from 74.125.19.106: bytes=32 time=836ms TTL=54
Reply from 74.125.19.106: bytes=32 time=729ms TTL=54

Why was it suddenly so slow? Who knows. With wired I don't have to worry about it.

That is a perfect example of what? What does it have to do with the wireless? Correlation does not equal causation.

 

[joker454]

That is a perfect example of what? What does it have to do with the wireless? Correlation does not equal causation.

My wired setup was still getting a fast ping, consistent as always, whereas the wireless connection went to hell, albeit briefly. So it's a perfect example of the inconsistency of wireless connections and why I don't use them for gaming.

 

[makattack]

Wireless on laptops is a total bitch. Probably even more because by default it will be set up for power saving so its very likely that it just wont be fast enough. But ofcourse that has nothing to do with gaming because now we are talking about bandwith rather than speed (How much bandwith does a online game require? I remember CS1.6 requires like 8kbs...).

If you change your laptop settings it would probably work because I have no problems streaming DVD to my netbook over wireless.

Nope. Has nothing to do with the settings on my laptop... I run Gentoo Linux on the laptop, with high performance settings in the kernel (APM, etc disabled) -- it's usually plugged in, and I will get drops/stutters on wireless. If I want to guarantee a failure, I just have to turn on my microwave oven.

Again, this same laptop, when plugged in over 100-B-T, is flawless. Even with near 720p streaming content (higher than DVD) via a Slingbox HD device.

Because I live in a three story building with 6 other neighbors, all with wireless routers, microwave ovens and cordless phones -- I am guaranteed a high noise to signal ratio all the time. Wireless N may solve my problems for a bit, but at the moment, wireless is only good for http browsing when I'm at home.

 

[Brad Grenz]

My wired setup was still getting a fast ping, consistent as always, whereas the wireless connection went to hell, albeit briefly. So it's a perfect example of the inconsistency of wireless connections and why I don't use them for gaming.

Yeah, it's really a matter of wireless being susceptible to sudden and unpredictable environmental interference. If you have the option a wired connection is alway preferable, but if wifi is all you can get to your TV you can still have fun playing online, just remember it's not actually life and death!

On the PC side I find the the biggest trouble with wifi is almost always crappy adapters and crappy drivers. Almost every USB wifi adapter I've ever used overheats pretty easily. They're pretty much the only thing I've ever seen blue-screen an x64 Vista install. The custom network managers every wifi adapter comes with is universally garbage. If I need to add wifi to a computer I almost always buy a cheap DD-WRT compatible router and put it in bridge mode. My connections are always rock solid going with that. You can get them on sale for around $20 so it makes more sense than paying the same for a crappy USB or PCI adapter.

 

[tha_con]

My wired setup was still getting a fast ping, consistent as always, whereas the wireless connection went to hell, albeit briefly. So it's a perfect example of the inconsistency of wireless connections and why I don't use them for gaming.

I don't think the inconsistency of a wireless network is going to make you a better gamer, and it's certainly not going to have a lasting negative impact on your competitive nature. You'll still do just as fine. You guy's really really need to do a blind test. I think it's quite obvious that many of you aren't paying attention to all the tricks developers use to mask latency on P2P games online, especially shooters.

Fighters are the only games where latency is truly a large factor. All other online gaming simply is unpredictable as it is being P2P, so Wireless or wires, it isn't magically going to make all of that go away.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Have you ever pinged your router from a wireless device? How much latency do you think it adds?

I just ping'd my router. 1 ms. I can live with that . Especially as it's my aiming that sucks!

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I don't think the inconsistency of a wireless network is going to make you a better gamer, and it's certainly not going to have a lasting negative impact on your competitive nature. You'll still do just as fine. You guy's really really need to do a blind test. I think it's quite obvious that many of you aren't paying attention to all the tricks developers use to mask latency on P2P games online, especially shooters.

Fighters are the only games where latency is truly a large factor. All other online gaming simply is unpredictable as it is being P2P, so Wireless or wires, it isn't magically going to make all of that go away.

Wireless will most certainly make you a worse player however if you get even just occasional interference of your wireless signal.

Again using MMO's as they are VERY lenient on high packetloss/ping times.

That last time I used wireless. Ping times varied between 250-450 ms normally. Spikes up to 10k+ ms as the router and wireless card have to be retrained. Packetloss normally 0-15%. Spikes of 100% packetloss.

Compared to wired. Ping times varied between 250-300 ms normally. Packetloss never higher than 1% (usually when it's raining, DSL).

The wireless connection in my area with all the interference here is virtually unuseable. And thus I have disabled it entirely. But then I live close to downtown.

A friend lives out in the suburbs. And it's significantly better out there. But even wireless out at his place is totally unsuitable for any type of twitch gaming. With random spikes into the 1k ms ping areas and spikes of 50% packetloss. Doesn't happen all the time, but even if it only happens once a minute or once every 10 minutes, that's still once a minute or once every 10 minutes more than a wired connection.

Whenever we setup for LAN gaming, we no longer allow anyone to use a wireless connection as it just makes things more of a pain for everyone on a wired connection.

Obviously if you live in an area where there is absolutely ZERO interference with your signal more power to you, and wireless should be just fine.

Regards,
SB

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

I dont know how they build stuff in your country but around here I can go downtown, in the suburbs or countryside and I wont get some extreme ping using wireless. Not even in student houses where everybody has his own microwave, tons of mobile phones, less than perfect setups etc.

 

[joker454]

You guy's really really need to do a blind test. I think it's quite obvious that many of you aren't paying attention to all the tricks developers use to mask latency on P2P games online, especially shooters.

Some of those same tricks may help with latency, but they also highlight the issue with inconsistent wireless connections. Dead reckoning is one of the older ways to predict position. Ever play with someone online and wonder why they are suddenly going in circles? I see this when I play online with friend who uses wireless. We're walking around taking a turn, then I keep going straight. I look back wondering where he is and he is behind me doing circles. Eventually he re-appears in front of me going straight again. Then I remember....wireless His connection probably spazzed out momentarily and the code took over for him, which kept him moving as he was previously resulting in him doing circles. Other cases of course are the ever classic "Why is he walking against a wall?". A certain amount of latency can be masked in most games, but poor connections can't. There is so much that can affect a wireless connection, everything from microwave ovens to satellite radio repeaters, that getting glitches is almost inevitable. It certainly wouldn't stop me from playing online if I only had wireless, but wired is the way to go if you can swing it.

Fighters are the only games where latency is truly a large factor.

Cool, so we can finally ditch the 60fps requirement on driving games

 

[infinity4]

People here should improve their skill first if they have good connection, then complain about latency.

 

[tha_con]

Some of those same tricks may help with latency, but they also highlight the issue with inconsistent wireless connections. Dead reckoning is one of the older ways to predict position. Ever play with someone online and wonder why they are suddenly going in circles? I see this when I play online with friend who uses wireless. We're walking around taking a turn, then I keep going straight. I look back wondering where he is and he is behind me doing circles. Eventually he re-appears in front of me going straight again. Then I remember....wireless His connection probably spazzed out momentarily and the code took over for him, which kept him moving as he was previously resulting in him doing circles. Other cases of course are the ever classic "Why is he walking against a wall?". A certain amount of latency can be masked in most games, but poor connections can't. There is so much that can affect a wireless connection, everything from microwave ovens to satellite radio repeaters, that getting glitches is almost inevitable. It certainly wouldn't stop me from playing online if I only had wireless, but wired is the way to go if you can swing it.




Cool, so we can finally ditch the 60fps requirement on driving games

You're out of it. How you can blindly assume that the [poor] quality of your friends wireless signal / router is somehow the same as everyone else's is beyond me. Continue to make yourself feel 'better' about your competitive gaming by 'believing' that wired is making you more 'competitive' in an online peer to peer game.

Also, fighters are extremely sensitive to latency because moves have priority based on the number of frames they take to animate.

For example, a move that is 6 frames will beat out a move that is 8 frames. Latency can make fighting games nearly unplayable, and can create extremely strange situations.

Racing titles, however, have a much easier time, as the person who is in front is, at the lowest, a half of a second ahead of the pack. Generally it's considerably more than that.

Where you got your comment about racing games no longer needing to be 60fps is beyond me, but I assume it's because you don't play many fighting / racing games at a high level.

 

[function]

Most games aren't peer to peer, they are client / server (like Halo 2 / 3).

On my laptop, with my router on the desk in front of me, I get higher latency and more (normally very short) lag spikes using wifi than ethernet. I can pick a TF2 server with a silky smooth connection over ethernet, and using net graph see the difference with wifi.

Perhaps it isn't the same for everyone, but I'd rather stick with a cable for gaming as I get a more consistent experience.

 

[makattack]

I dont know how they build stuff in your country but around here I can go downtown, in the suburbs or countryside and I wont get some extreme ping using wireless. Not even in student houses where everybody has his own microwave, tons of mobile phones, less than perfect setups etc.

This will be the case the World over. It makes little difference what country you're in. If you are in a developed country, in a city, there will be very crowded airwaves with plenty of interference. I remember when I lived in the UK and traveled all over the EU with my mobile phone, I could tell when I was getting a call before the ringer even sounded. Any radio, telephone, or other electronic device would start making odd noises. Radio / electromagnetic interference is just a way of life now. Another aspect of my home that generates a lot of noise that affects my wireless connection: the compact fluorescent light bulbs in just about every fixture I have. I can tell it affects my some of the FM radio stations I listen to. If I turn on a light near the radio, I get noise.

At any rate, I know I can play online fine with wireless, but I don't want those occasional disconnects/drops to affect me -- no matter how occasional it is.

 

[joker454]

You're out of it. How you can blindly assume that the [poor] quality of your friends wireless signal / router is somehow the same as everyone else's is beyond me.

All wireless is susceptible to interference/errors/retransmissions, whatever you want to call it, I was giving but one example. Wireless works, but wired is better for games. If all you have is wireless, then use it. But if you have a network jack next to your console, then you should use that instead of wireless.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

All wireless is susceptible to interference/errors/retransmissions, whatever you want to call it, I was giving but one example. Wireless works, but wired is better for games. If all you have is wireless, then use it. But if you have a network jack next to your console, then you should use that instead of wireless.

That's true in principle, but there are some pretty crazy examples being presented here! Seconds' worth of dropped connection is no good for any internet use, yet alone competitve gaming, but I don't believe that's the typical case for wireless. I'm not a huge fan of wireless, BTW. It's a fair trade between convenience and functionality, but wireless routers can be a PITA. Still, when it's up and running, you shouldn't be getting dropped packets all over the shop and massive latencies. If you are, your network needs to be set up better, or your living in an area of exceptional interference.

Regards these annecdotes, how do we know if someone's poor connection is a fault of their wireless connections or their internet connection/ISP? "I played with a guy and he had lag. Ergo his wireless connection was rubbish." That's quite the leap of logic. Even if you extend that with a test, playing against the same guy on the same connection only he switches between wireless and ethernet, and you record lag and no lag, that would only prove his wireless setup was ineffective. Unless someone can present research that shows one way or another that wireless connections in general are fairly robust or prone to frequent catastrophic packet loss, there isn't really an intelligent argument to be had here.

 

[joker454]

Regards these annecdotes, how do we know if someone's poor connection is a fault of their wireless connections or their internet connection/ISP? "I played with a guy and he had lag. Ergo his wireless connection was rubbish." That's quite the leap of logic. Even if you extend that with a test, playing against the same guy on the same connection only he switches between wireless and ethernet, and you record lag and no lag, that would only prove his wireless setup was ineffective. Unless someone can present research that shows one way or another that wireless connections in general are fairly robust or prone to frequent catastrophic packet loss, there isn't really an intelligent argument to be had here.

You are on PSN where random people don't talk as much with each other. But on 360 everyone talked from day one, so over the years when someone would have a questionable connection they would always be asked what was up. More often than not they were on wireless. It's not something that happened once, twice, or even a dozen times, but very frequently over the course of many years. If it was a female player they were usually given a free pass, but if it was a dude then they usually got kicked off the game. I suppose it could be coincidence and all these wireless users also magically had bad isp's. But I doubt it.

But let's say you dismiss all that as coincidence or anecdotal, we still all know what wireless is like. It's not a perfect connection, it can get temporarily frazzled. The makers of wireless 'b' and 'g' products know this also, hence why advertising for wireless 'n' likes to tout its 'strong resistance to interference'. That's because interference was a known problem on 'b' and 'g'! When web browsing, maybe it results in a page taking a bit longer to load, or the occasional 404 error so it's no big deal. But in gaming the results will vary even with the best hardware. Add some walls between the wireless card and router, or add some extra distance, and who knows how consistent the connection will be.

If your wireless is perfect then stick with it, or if it's all you have then just use it. But I think to compare wireless to wired for games is silly, especially when talking about 'b' or 'g'. Maybe 'n' will be better though. I just switched the wireless in my laptop to 'n' because the previous 'g' card would sometimes go bad briefly, I'm hopeful that the 'n' card will be more resistant to interference as the advertising claims.

EDIT: I googled a link with info on interference issues with 'b' and 'g':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11

Of note:

"802.11b and 802.11g use the 2.4 GHz ISM band, operating in the United States under Part 15 of the US Federal Communications Commission Rules and Regulations. Because of this choice of frequency band, 802.11b and g equipment may occasionally suffer interference from microwave ovens, cordless telephones and Bluetooth devices."

 

[AlNom]

I'm hopeful that the 'n' card will be more resistant to interference as the advertising claims.

EDIT: I googled a link with info on interference issues with 'b' and 'g':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11

Of note:

"802.11b and 802.11g use the 2.4 GHz ISM band, operating in the United States under Part 15 of the US Federal Communications Commission Rules and Regulations. Because of this choice of frequency band, 802.11b and g equipment may occasionally suffer interference from microwave ovens, cordless telephones and Bluetooth devices."

Yeah, that's the issue exactly. There are many devices operating on the same frequency. With N, that should be alleviated to an extent, and even if you do have cordless phones on the 5GHz range, it shouldn't be too bad really.

The only issue with going to higher frequency is that it becomes more prone to signal loss with physical obstructions. This is mainly why the A protocol was perhaps not too popular - limited range - which N improves upon.

To take a different application: AM versus FM

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If your wireless is perfect then stick with it...

Which is precisely my point! Wifi does not mean laggy games. It *may*, just as a dodgy Ethernet router could (and remember Ethernet has to deal with potential packet loss too). The point is to find something that works. The thread is about whether Wifi is good enough. One cannot answer a categorical 'no, it's always laggy and rubbish' because some people have good connections, espiecally if you spend hours finding where to situate components to get a good signal! Likewise one can't always answer a categorical 'yes' because it is prone to interference. And on the flip-side, one can't always answer 'yes, Ethernet is perfect' because a lot depends on cabling and access to points.

Wireless vs. Wired? - It all depends...

 

[Acert93]

I haven't had the time to follow this spin off, but my quick notes.

1. A quick check was showing about an extra 8ms for wireless. I did some browsing and this seems typical.

2. The issue with wireless, as I originally noted, is the stability of the signal fluctates, even in good conditions. Spikes are typical.

3. I would gather that a USB based device will add a small additional level of latency as well as inconsistancy (CPU overhead).

4. 8ms may not seem to be a lot. But some context.

a. A 60fps game refreshes the screen every 16ms.

b. It is hard to nail down the 360 with hard numbers (and the experience is quite variable), but as a PC gamer there is *clearly* a difference between a server with a 40-60ms ping and a 100-120ms ping. Going from 40ms to 48ms is a 20% increase. Going from 64ms to 72ms is a 12.5% increase.

5. Games already have a degree of built in latency (often a frame is rendered buffered, maybe even rendered behind delayed and detached from some game physics), online games will be buffered (maybe even with movement prediction), and you have other issues like variable output latency that can be nearly 0ms on up to over 60ms. The issue isn't so much that a game already has 100-150ms latency between user input and what they may see on screen--the issue is the increase becomes more noticable as well as the experience can become disjointed.

I have seen and heard people get REALLY frustrated with display latency, so much so they find it unplayable, when the additional latency is in the 15-45ms range. This isn't much, but they find it quite annoying. Likewise a lot of PC gamers won't touch a server with a ping over 80ms. Going from 60ms to 90ms is a big difference in fast paced games. I live in apartments and my WiFi signal is very unpredictable.

Anyhow, as I mentioned, I do not recomment WiFi for 360 gamers unless your setup requires it. You are paying more for a lesser experience.

I don't think the inconsistency of a wireless network is going to make you a better gamer, and it's certainly not going to have a lasting negative impact on your competitive nature. You'll still do just as fine. You guy's really really need to do a blind test. I think it's quite obvious that many of you aren't paying attention to all the tricks developers use to mask latency on P2P games online, especially shooters.

Wrong.

Additional latency and an inconsistant connection will impact competitive gamers. I never said it would make games unplayable and indeed there are a lot of people with the same handicap. But that doesn't mean it doesn't impact your performance.

I think a lot of us ARE paying attention to the various latencies and tricks being deployed (big for you and assumptions about what others know... sheesh) but I don't think you are appreciating the fact that someone who is very good won't be just as good with an inferior experience, even if we are only talking an 10-15% increase in ping latency and random inconsistancy.

It probably isn't something less competitive gamers will ever notice, so I can understand the resistance some of you have to this concept. I don't do the ladder thing on the PC anymore, but my experience is those unconcerned with performance are typically those who the performance differences are the least noticable.

Just like those who cannot see the difference between 30fps and 60fps and 80fps. Just because YOU cannot see it doesn't mean others aren't aware of it.

Fighters are the only games where latency is truly a large factor. All other online gaming simply is unpredictable as it is being P2P, so Wireless or wires, it isn't magically going to make all of that go away.

LOL Fighters are the only game where it is a large factor?

Btw, logical fallacy: just because P2P isn't ideal (!! to say the least), doesn't mean additional (a) latency and (b) inconsistancy is irrelevant.