Look at this Google-cached (pulled down) PlayStation 3 page

Nonamer:
You're just speculating wildly here. Heat monster, gate leakage etc etc. Let's keep this at a minimum, shall we?

Remember, EE at .25u was what, 230sqmm? It was HUGE. GS wasn't a lightweight either, close to 190sqmm I think. Sony's already used to sticking enormous chips into their consoles. :)


*G*
 
To be fair, one of the most telling examples of how engine sharing can lead to similar visuals is on PS2 - Jak and Daxter and Rachet and Clank. Despite Jak and Daxter trying for more cartoonish stylings while Ratchet and Clank tries for a more futuristic sci-fi design, both games clearly look like they were spawned from the same tech. Both share that Lego World look, where objects stand out as complex polygonal constructs because surface personality afforded by texturing is so sparse. Things look shaded all over in color rather than covered in intricate patterning.

Another example is Konami's Cy Girls and MGS2. Reportedly using the MGS2 engine, Cy Girls resembles a P.N.03 set almost directly in a MGS2 smoothly metallic indoor locale.

Games sharing the same technology are not doomed to a look-alike fate, of course. Creativity by the graphic design team is the true determinant for how distinctive a game's visuals can be.

On one end of the spectrum, the creators might choose to mold the design around a console's capabilities... famous examples of this being when Miyamoto gave Mario a mustache (and a hat) to sidestep the difficulties of expressing finer facial detail with NES sprites, and when Naughty Dog designed Crash as an orange bandicoot because of how well the color stood out in PSX's muddy 3D. When taking guidance from the hardware capabilties like this, some designers may indeed end up pushing a console in similar ways, and their games may bear areas of resemblance as a result (Team Kojima games like ZOE, MGS2, and the celish-shaded ZOE2 all seem to exist in a universe with stylishly smooth objects/characters and bountiful effects... although, owing to the team's creativity, each game certainly has many areas of individual visual style also.)

But on the other end of the spectrum, creative graphic design, that's perhaps less compromising to hardware temptations, shows just how varied and distinctive games can be made to look. An imaginative dev like UGA on Dreamcast, with Space Channel 5 pt 2 and Rez, and Smilebit on Xbox, with Jet Set Radio Future and GUNVALKYRIE and Panzer Dragoon Orta, probably worked with a similar technology base across their multiple titles while still realizing wholly separate and unique graphic designs.
 
cool post LAzy... i noticed something in SH3 the other day which has nothing to do with what u're talking about, but if i dont write this down i'm gonna forget about it :LOL:

basically there is a thing called Seal of Metatron in the game...

Metatron is the energy used in the Zoe universe...

and there are other references in the game to other Konami games (other than Silent Hill1&2 of course), like the gun silencer (MGS)...

it was pretty funny finding the Seal of Metatron and made me think, what if one day the 3 games converge into one single game in the same universe...

it's like they all share aspects of the same universe, the Konami universe :LOL: .
i mean, it was clear that Zoe shared many aspects of the MGS universe (the look of Metal Gear Ray/Rex is pretty similar to the Mechs in Zoe etc)

it's like, SH3 and MGS happen in different parts of the same world at around the same time, while ZOE is an evolution of the same world, centuries after the other 2. especially the evolution of MEtal Gear into the Mechs in Zoe...

now, why did i get into this again? :LOL:
 
Don't forget the Gradius. Isn't the ship from Gradius in Z.O.E.2
The similarities in Z.O.E mechs and Metal Gears are propably just the result of same designers.
A fun observation nevertheless :)
I'd like if there would be more nice little extras based on game saves of other games, like the toilet scene in SH3 if you have a SH2 save in mem card.
 
rabidrabbit said:
Don't forget the Gradius. Isn't the ship from Gradius in Z.O.E.2
The similarities in Z.O.E mechs and Metal Gears are propably just the result of same designers.
A fun observation nevertheless :)
I'd like if there would be more nice little extras based on game saves of other games, like the toilet scene in SH3 if you have a SH2 save in mem card.


yeah there are loads of those in SH3 if u have a complete save game on the memory card.... they're pretty funny, heather sounds like a character in buffy sometimes, sassy and sarcastic in a situation that is completely serious... :LOL:
 
no-namer... not the whole chip will be running at 4 GHz or a similar high frequency... the e-DRAM and all those 1,024 bits busses will run at a frequency thta is quite a bit lower than that...

You cannot take the whole chip and think about how much heat would such a chip produce...
 
Grall said:
Nonamer:
You're just speculating wildly here. Heat monster, gate leakage etc etc. Let's keep this at a minimum, shall we?

Remember, EE at .25u was what, 230sqmm? It was HUGE. GS wasn't a lightweight either, close to 190sqmm I think. Sony's already used to sticking enormous chips into their consoles. :)


*G*

I'm not speculating, well, not overly much. :D It's true that the Prescott is significantly hotter than expected: Link, though perhaps "heat monster" may be an exaggeration. Gate leakage is no joke. It will be the issue at 65nm. I've found another about it here.

IIRC, the EE and GS in the original PS2 were 240mm^2 and 279mm^2. Size isn't the issue. It's the heat such large chips will produce that's the issue.[/i]
 
no-namer, in the Pentium IV, a lot of the circuitry is running at 3 GHz ( 3 GHz part ) and the fast ALUs, the fast AGU and the fast ALUs Register file are all running at 6 GHz...

The L2 and L1 cache are running pretty fast too and doubling both of them WILL increase the heat produced ( Prescott has double L1 Data Cache and doubled L2 ).
 
I know it's possible that different parts of the Cell chip could run at different speeds, and that the P4 does so right now. I don't see it mattering as overall the Cell looks like it will stay at a lower clockspeed with a few parts going higher. Basically I'm saying that they not going the main portion of this chip to run at a high clock speed.

Well it's true that there is a lot more cache, better HT and more instructions in the Prescott than the current P4, it still runs hotter than all of those additions should create and the mainly cuprit is some sort of leakage problem, which I believe will be a big enough issue for the Cell to limit how high it can clock.
 
those are interesting links, it's likely going to be even worse in the future. in <10 years the physical limitations of silicon will be reached and shrinking the process won't even be an option.
 
To be fair, one of the most telling examples of how engine sharing can lead to similar visuals is on PS2 - Jak and Daxter and Rachet and Clank.
That's true, but I think that's also partly because both games are actually cartoonish looking platformers, it's just that they both put different spin on their cartoon look. I think that engine could be used to make completely differenet looking game if they wanted, and as a matter of fact, Jak 2 is fairly different looking, more realistic (although still with a cartoonish look)

In any case, I think that engine limitations will matter very little next gen, because the engines will probably allow for so much options that creativity will be the sole deciding factor.
 
Josiah said:
those are interesting links, it's likely going to be even worse in the future. in <10 years the physical limitations of silicon will be reached and shrinking the process won't even be an option.

I'm waiting for molecular computer research to have paid off by then. All this on/off stuff is giving me a headache. I mean, how many trillion lightswitch commands do we WANT, anyway?
 
marconelly! said:
That's true, but I think that's also partly because both games are actually cartoonish looking platformers, it's just that they both put different spin on their cartoon look. I think that engine could be used to make completely differenet looking game if they wanted, and as a matter of fact, Jak 2 is fairly different looking, more realistic (although still with a cartoonish look)

In any case, I think that engine limitations will matter very little next gen, because the engines will probably allow for so much options that creativity will be the sole deciding factor.

Couldn't agree more. :D I really would love to see the J&D engine used for other genres, like a FPS. I think it would look and run amazing while having no loading times.

Speaking of Ratchet & Clank: some levels were mighty impressive and did look quite a bit different, thanks to the metallic science-fiction look of some levels (mainly the night / rainy ones). Personally, I didn't like the daytime levels all that much from a graphics-point of view though. :?
 
of course J&D and R&C look similar. not TOO similar, but of course they do... but it's not necesserely because they "share technology" (they are awlays bragging about "not using the same engine, rather "sharing technology").
it's because they are both cartoony games with cutey characters and cutey bad guys...
they do look very different in some instances in fact, with the futuristic look of R&C in direct contrast with the "fable-y" look of J&D.

if someone were to use the J&D engine for a GTA game, then of course the game would look TOTALLY different even though it was using the same engine....
and now that i think about it, it would be pretty cool if GTA used the J&D engine and not the rather "less-than-stellar" Renderware middleware...
although i still fail to see how on earth they pulled that beauty that is Burnout 2 out of Renderware... completely over my head :?
 
Well I'll give my two cents.

mention expensive fabrication(ARM is happy with 0.25 micron process),

hmmm, and I thought smaller processes allowed for more power with lower consumption....

You have no choice since we are likely stuck with HDTV transmission for another 50 years.

???
Vhs... dvd.... blu-ray.... beyond....
It only get's faster my friend... HD-tv will be gone sooner than you think.

PS

As for ps3, it's clear it's designed with the future 45nm process in mind(as many of you already know).... 30nm won't be out like till 2010.... hmmm....

edited
 
I believe that there is something in ps2 design that aint as good as it could have been (shoulh have been), There certainly is something. Otherwise there wouldnt be so many notes from gamers that xbox has the graphics and maybe cube too yes?.Or is it just too quickly judged and misunderstood hardware. Maybe is it somewhere in the middle as where thruth usually lies?.

Deadmeat -> You seem to know a lot but still your assumptions dont quite match with all the oppinnions/reality here and in the real world (Same oppinnions with you that ps2 goes for too many polys with the expence of pixel quality(design flaw?=)remember the reality engine team QA in edge about n64 technology, where there was talk about the right pixel quality/poly throughtput.There certainly is truth in many consepts in your posts my oppinnion but... the info is not thought trought enought in many ways and maybe that is the reason why the end conclusions you have made are so far fetched?. but my cons to you for making an interesting points about things i have been seeking answers too (there is still many unanswered maybe if i had time to ask).

And for everyone else , if dead meat is wrong about ps2 architechture
being designed for absolute power numbers and no regards to real world game engine scenarios (texture quality/poly rate n64 example). Why does allmost every ps2 games that i play have blurry texture Filtering, low res textures witch never looked as good overall as on cube or xbox, Very notisable edge aliasing, Somewhat less color depth. (not meaning it is as nearly as bad as it sounds)

Yes i know this is becuse what disscussed above about the design desisions the team taked for more geometry. But still every game shop that has many games machines for free play. I mostly notice that as crap cube is in its numbers (2x less fillrate ,3x less bandwidht overall, small frame buffer ect (dont remember the details nor am i a dev (yet), so spare with me) in allmost all cases is able to produse better looking graphical look. I know that there are these metal gear - cut scenes ect and that ratchet engine pushes more polys than 99% of the cube or xbox games but still, thats the overall picture im getting when i go in to the local store and every standup have these most popular games that change every week, still the picture is the same "ooh look at those xbox graphics , ooh yes cube games look guite fancy in their childishness, ok those ps2 games look quite desent but not as good (here in finland that is considered a fact ,are things something else in the world or is this just other type of ignorance?).

No need to step to anyones feet or offend the developpers here , just thinking loud so oppinnions are most welcome.
 
I never saw this thread before. Anyway I have a question, when in the hell did Eddie "The Eagle" Edwards start programming games?? :LOL: I thought he'd died a little while after he retired from skiing :lol
 
L_i_n_k said:
And for everyone else , if dead meat is wrong about ps2 architechture
being designed for absolute power numbers and no regards to real world game engine scenarios (texture quality/poly rate n64 example). Why does allmost every ps2 games that i play have blurry texture Filtering, low res textures witch never looked as good overall as on cube or xbox, Very notisable edge aliasing, Somewhat less color depth. (not meaning it is as nearly as bad as it sounds)

Never mind Deadmeat, he's just a very opinionated fella with an axe to grind. He's got no ACTUAL qualifications on which to base all his assumptions, of which there have been many MANY.

Anyway, enough about that now.

I don't know why you think almost every game you play on PS2 have blurry textures etc, how could I? You think I'm a mind reader or something? ;) But seriously, we all see graphics differently, and besides, I don't know which games you've played either. There's titles that have good textures on PS2, and titles that are, well, not so good.

When it comes to blurryness though, nothing beats the good (?) ol' N64 though... JESUS. And I actually LIKE the darned thing, hehe.
 
Teasy said:
I never saw this thread before. Anyway I have a question, when in the hell did Eddie "The Eagle" Edwards start programming games?? :LOL: I thought he'd died a little while after he retired from skiing :lol

ROFL. You know what? I wanted to write exactly the same thing...
 
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