Brodda Thep
Newcomer
Are you talking about Natal? They aren't doing triangulation. So they only need one camera which uses time of flight to create the depth information.
Sony's New Motion Controller
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Are you talking about Natal? They aren't doing triangulation. So they only need one camera which uses time of flight to create the depth information.
Beyond occlusion there is no inherent limit on the accuracy of these kinds of cameras, the limits of their specific implementation is anyone's guess at this point.
As for them existing, well yes ... they exist, but they have never been cheap before. I haven't seen any commercial offerings besides 3DVs system, at the moment I see exactly none.
As for them existing, well yes ... they exist, but they have never been cheap before. I haven't seen any commercial offerings besides 3DVs system, at the moment I see exactly none.
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Cool ! On the face of the Natal sensor bar, I see 2 + 1 lenses. What are they ? The time-of-flight (optical or ultrasonic) mechanism can sense distance accurately along one dimension. I thought they need at least 2 of them to construct their 3D mesh accurately ? If true, I should say 2 depth sensors instead of 2 cameras above.
I used 3D camera in the loose sense (Sony's patent uses the words "depth sensing camera" in its title but "3D camera" in its claims).
I used 3D camera in the loose sense (Sony's patent uses the words "depth sensing camera" in its title but "3D camera" in its claims).
Brodda Thep
Newcomer
I just thought more about this. Perhaps it is a two camera system. one depth camera + one rgb camera. I was hoping they could integrate them into a single RGBD camera. Perhaps with a bayer pattern to filter red, green, blue, infrared. But perhaps the mechanics of a Time of Flight camera are significanlty different enough that they can't be integrated. Though if you look at the 3dv camera it looks like they have integrated it into a single camera. Their camera is a 1.3 megapixel version which is high enough for this type of system.
Well, every system only gets one dimensional depth if that is what you are thinking. However, you know the XY coordinates from the pixel on the sensor. You get the Z information from the time of flight. This gives you position in polar-type coordinates which is easily converted to cartesian space with no further information.
Brodda Thep
Newcomer
infrared source? Something has to send out the IR light.
Brodda Thep
Newcomer
Is http://assets.gearlive.com/playfeed/blogimages/project-natal-sensor-xbox.jpg the image we are talking about? Before this conversation I thought it was power light, RGBD camera, IR light. But perhaps it is two cameras. Depth + RGB. They certainly do look like lenses.
IIRC they said they have two cameras, 1 RGB and 1 D. There's an IR light-souce. The D camera records a 2.5D image as it were, X and Y positions and depth. This is combined with the RGB to give RGBZ. As I understand it.
Isn't there an own thread for MS's motion controller tech.
I'd like if I come to a thread called "Sony's New Motion Controller", the discussion actually was about Sony's new motion controller, and that I wouldn't have to wonder what are the two cameras folks are discussing, and if I missed something form the Sony keynote, because I for sure didn't see two cameras in Sony's motion controller presentation
I'd like if I come to a thread called "Sony's New Motion Controller", the discussion actually was about Sony's new motion controller, and that I wouldn't have to wonder what are the two cameras folks are discussing, and if I missed something form the Sony keynote, because I for sure didn't see two cameras in Sony's motion controller presentation
Isn't there an own thread for MS's motion controller tech.
I'd like if I come to a thread called "Sony's New Motion Controller", the discussion actually was about Sony's new motion controller, and that I wouldn't have to wonder what are the two cameras folks are discussing, and if I missed something form the Sony keynote, because I for sure didn't see two cameras in Sony's motion controller presentation
There's not much to talk about, to be honest. As we've seen, the tech Sony is using has been demoed by Sony's own engineers for years.
It's precise, it's functional, but it's not capturing the imagination as much. It's kind of inevitable that the conversation wanders.
There's a great deal of cross-over among several threads. I've thought about trying to tidy it up, but it'd be a mammoth and ongoing task. In my role as a mod I'm happy to let this spread-out, excited talk about the new techs follow its own loose form for the moment, and when things settle, we can talk about individual systems in a more structured fashion.
Whereas I'm sure if AlStrong was around at the moment, he'd have it all whipped into shape - he's jolly efficient like that
Whereas I'm sure if AlStrong was around at the moment, he'd have it all whipped into shape - he's jolly efficient like that
Isn't there an own thread for MS's motion controller tech.
I'd like if I come to a thread called "Sony's New Motion Controller", the discussion actually was about Sony's new motion controller, and that I wouldn't have to wonder what are the two cameras folks are discussing, and if I missed something form the Sony keynote, because I for sure didn't see two cameras in Sony's motion controller presentation
Sony controller hot issues would be:
* Shape of the controller (stick, "transformer" DS, or what). This may turn out to be quite important.
* Depth capture camera. They filed a new patent, now what ?
* Boundary conditions and fail cases (Graham mentioned that there could be interferences)
* How much ? and whether it's bundled.
As Asher mentioned, the hardware is relatively well understood from user's point of view. We have already seen EyeToy in action for the most part but it may not have the speed and accuracy of Natal without depth input. On the other hand, things like color, drawing, and simple motion detection may not require 3D motion tracking. So they may be on par on a hardware level there, but Sony is more matured in software in these areas.
Not sure what the depth capture camera patent filing implies. I'm assuming Sony will use standard pressure sensitive buttons and triggers, plus rumble in the new controller. The creative part lies in how to use it, especially the camera.
Personally, I think they should look more into drawing input. It's useful for media search and of course can be made into a game (like EyePet, and LBP).
EDIT: and here, Sony confirms that the new controller is a separate scheme altogether. SIXAXIS will still be the de facto controller:
http://gizmodo.com/5279079/sony-dual-shock-still-defacto-motion-control-secondary
Love_In_Rio
Veteran
I think It´s a RGB camera, a depth camera and the microphone array. I think it doesn´t have an IR, what would it be needed for ?.
If Natal can track 48 articulations in the human body, couldn´t it easily track a stick or a racket and take them as the "touchable" controller ?. Besides, it would increase accuracy because of being simpler to track.
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It's actually a different studio that I was referring to, a smaller shop that's been working with PSMC for a long time now. Mind you, I'm wouldn't be surprised if EA has had their hands on it as well.
My only issue with PSMC is that it seems like they are targeting it as a controller replacement instead of going after new markets with it, which in my opinion is a mistake. Gamers will always play with the regular controller, it's a waste of time targeting them, it will just keep PSMC niche if they do. Fps's, slashing swords, etc, are good for forum chat but they won't make it a major hit since that kind of stuff is 'meh' to that other market of non gamers. They really need to tear away from adapting PSMC to existing games and go with entirely new ideas.
Ha ha, they are most certainly not targeting it as a controller replacement according to the Sony dude in the above link. Targeting new market is one of the goals. In fact, they may help to cushion the Wii development risk that some developers seem to fear.
At the same time, the PS Eye can be used standalone (e.g., EyePet only uses PS Eye and nothing else). If and once the PS3 drops price, they can explore other areas.
At the same time, the PS Eye can be used standalone (e.g., EyePet only uses PS Eye and nothing else). If and once the PS3 drops price, they can explore other areas.
I think he means game types. Personally, I'd like to play fps games with something like the PSMC, but he's saying most people wouldn't use it anyway, so they should make other types of games rather than adapting the standard types of games we've seen.
They have been exploring new game types, with or without innovation in controllers.
(Think about past and present Sony games).Developer will always try to dream up the next biggest hits.
And there is nothing stopping my grandma to use a PSMC if it's easy to use enough... just like a Wiimote didn't scare people off. Conversely, a "no controller" UI may be confusing to people too.
Ah, OK. Can you say, are they a 2nd or 3rd party?
I think the PSMC's potential for "casual" game types is kinda a forgone conclusion. With cross platform potential with the Wii that stuff should just come naturally, which is why I think they wanted to play up the fact that motion controls can be meaningful for hardcore experiences too. Sega has been dutifully experimenting with hardcore games on the Wii, but the technical limitations of the platform as far as graphics, physics, storage, etc still pose a large barrier. Maybe the Conduit's controls are just perfect, but I'd be a lot more interested in the game if it could also bring high def graphics, a cutting edge 3d engine, destructible environments and more to the table as well. A single machine that can cater to both ends of the spectrum, and what's more, provide cross over experiences (an area where I think Natal is most likely to fail) is a very good thing.
That said, I don't really care if it becomes a mainstream success. I don't have a vested interest in PSMC hitting it off with the Oprah crowd. All I can about is getting games I want to play. To play armchair analyst I would simply say I don't think either PSMC or Natal will get much traction against the Wii BRAND for the remainder of this generation no matter how cool their motion control is. Why that should make me, personally, think any less of either, I don't know.
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