Sony VR Headset/Project Morpheus/PlayStation VR

eh....kind of expected. I was always worried about the long term use. The VR tries to mimic as much as possible reality, but the subtle differences compared to reality are bound to confuse the brain/body function which will try to find efforts to adjust (gravity, eye focus, turn speed, milisecond lag etc etc).

I could feel some of these effects in Alien Isolation even though no VR is used. When I was using the motion tracker and pressed the L2 to the game camera changes the focus from the tracker to the area in front.
When I did this and looked at the tracker I could feel a slight strain on my left eye. My eye was trying to adjust its lens because my brain was thinking that the object is truly out of focus and since I was looking at it, it wanted to clean it up. Since that was impossible I felt more and more strain as I was looking at the out of focus tracker. When I released the L2 to focus the game camera to it, my eye strain immediately left
 
Well I'm hoping this is just Samsung's particular implementation. If I can't use Morpheus for an hour then I'm not buying it. Taking a break for 10-15 minutes every 30 minutes, without having some sort of dibilitating fit or physiological reaction, will destroy flow.
 
Seems like what Samsung is describing in its "warning label" are symptoms of motion sickness. For some VR will probably never be useable display.

But if you can build an entertainment business (vacation cruises) around boats that can cost over a billion dollar to manufacture, I am pretty sure there are enough users who aren't susceptible to motion sickness to drive the VR market.
 
Seems like what Samsung is describing in its "warning label" are symptoms of motion sickness. For some VR will probably never be useable display.

But if you can build an entertainment business (vacation cruises) around boats that can cost over a billion dollar to manufacture, I am pretty sure there are enough users who aren't susceptible to motion sickness to drive the VR market.

You mean like......


Like most warning labels, people will ignore them until they do something stupid to hurt themselves, then they'll look for someone to sue.
 
Well I'm hoping this is just Samsung's particular implementation. If I can't use Morpheus for an hour then I'm not buying it. Taking a break for 10-15 minutes every 30 minutes, without having some sort of dibilitating fit or physiological reaction, will destroy flow.
Console games already warn you to take a 15 minute break every hour of playing, or somesuch. And play in a well lit room. Playing scary games in the dark for hours at a time is likely going to cause an aneurysm, but Sony/MS have warned you so it's your own fault.
 
Like most warning labels, people will ignore them until they do something stupid to hurt themselves, then they'll look for someone to sue.
Like most warnning labels, they're completely unrealistic issues in defence of being sued. In the rare case of something coming to harm for someone, the warnings clearly protect Samsung/whoever from prosecution because the device wasn't used as prescribed. I believe manufacturers consider this necessary action since the infamous lawsuits (myths) like "woman who dried hair in microwave oven and got brain damage sues microwave manufacturer".
 
Console games already warn you to take a 15 minute break every hour of playing, or somesuch. And play in a well lit room.

They do but this isn't 15 minutes in every hour, this is 15 minutes every 30 minutes. I.e, you play for 15 minutes, stop for 15 minutes, play for 15 minutes, stop for 15 minutes.
 
My interpretation is take 10-15 minutes break after each 30 minutes of use. Plus, it doesn't matter. The warnings aren't realistic and aren't based on scientific study into the potential pitfalls of VR AFAIK. They're just over-caution from the lawyers. With such a ridiculously unrealistic requirement, the moment anyone gets absorbed and doesn't take a break for a couple of hours and spazzes out due to an unrelated brain anomaly, Samsung can say it's not their fault as they warned the users to take breaks, fending off the lawsuits from relatives wanting to place the blame on Samsung instead of bad luck with their relative's biology.

To iterate, I don't think there's anything particularly scientific about that cautions. The science probably got as far as saying, "we're not really sure what the risks are," and lawyers had to come up with something defensive.
 
My interpretation is take 10-15 minutes break after each 30 minutes of use. Plus, it doesn't matter. The warnings aren't realistic and aren't based on scientific study into the potential pitfalls of VR AFAIK. They're just over-caution from the lawyers.
It could be 30 minutes play followed by a 10-15 break but I'm certain Samsung have done testing and found this 30 minutes figure (which is half of the 60 minute figure used elsewhere in IT). Over-cautious lawyers don't just make up random numbers because those ultra cautious lawyers are ultimately culpable, within Samsung, for this.

To iterate, I don't think there's anything particularly scientific about that cautions. The science probably got as far as saying, "we're not really sure what the risks are," and lawyers had to come up with something defensive.

Again, I've never met a cautious lawyer who just made some data up, in a field they are not an expert, with the intention to being to avoid culpability for their client o_O If you've not tested, whose to say that 30 minutes isn't too long?
 
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Look at a packet of ham and its 'once opened, consume within 3 days' lie that leads millions of people to believe 4 day old ham is dangerous and chuck it out, as an example of where warnings can be bunkum. A cautious lawyer wouldn't have to make data up - he'd just want enough of a caution to low-ball and cover their asses.

It could be 30 minutes play followed by a 10-15 break but I'm certain Samsung have done testing and found this 30 minutes figure (which is half of the 60 minute figure used elsewhere in IT)
Who found the original 10-15 minutes per hour recommendation and what's the basis? How many people do you know who completely ignore all the gaming recommendations and actually come to harm? Among my circles, zero. I reckon the 10-15 minutes every hour isn't based on scientific investigation any more than 8 cups of water a day or 21 units of alcohol for men and 14 for women a week is.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8656565/Safe-drinking-limits-to-be-reviewed.html
Government advice here is based on recommendations from a committee of doctors in 1987, which set out weekly limits of 21 units for men, and 14 units for women.

Since then, one of the members of the Royal College of Physicians' original working party has admitted the figures were "plucked out of the air" in the absence of any clear evidence about how much alcohol constitutes a risk to health.
And I reckon the 10-15 minutes every half is based on exactly the same scientific evidence - none at all because no-one really cares, everyone playing computer games does so for hours at a time, but to avoid culpability, companies put on generic warnings and advices based on a couple of fringe instances of epilepsy and what-have-you. I notice the XBox gaming guidelines don't mention a 15 minute break recommendation. Are MS flouting the scientific evidence supporting that recommendation, or is there none and MS just giving their own common-sense advice?
 
Look at a packet of ham and its 'once opened, consume within 3 days' lie that leads millions of people to believe 4 day old ham is dangerous and chuck it out, as an example of where warnings can be bunkum.

A bit O/T but OK. In the EU all prepacked foodstuffs covered by Food Labelling Directive (2000/13/EEC) are required to carry a date of minimum durability. These notes offer informal, non-statutory guidance so there's no culpability here.

Who found the original 10-15 minutes per hour recommendation and what's the basis?

The 15 minutes is a result of a culmination of a lot of studies which seem to get repeated quite often. You'll find these going back to the 1980s if you care to look but listing just those studies conducted since the year 2000:

Dunstan D.W, Thorp A.A, Healy G.N. (2011) Prolonged sitting: is it a distinct coronary heart disease risk factor? Curr Opin Cardiol. Sep;26(5):412-419.

Hamilton M.T., Hamilton D.G., Zderic T.W. (2007) Role of Low Energy Expenditure and Sitting in Obesity, Metabolic Syndrome, Type 2 Diabetes, and Cardiovascular Disease Diabetes, 56:2655-2667

Hedge A., Ray E.J. (2004) Effects of an electronic height-adjustable worksurface on self-assessed musculoskeletal discomfort and productivity among computer workers, Proceedings of the Human Factors and Ergonomics Society 48th Annual Meeting, New Orleans, Sept. 20-24, HFES, Santa Monica, 1091-1095.

Krause N., Lynch J.W., Kaplan G.A., Cohen R.D., Salonen R., Salonen J.T. (2000) Standing at work and progression of carotid atherosclerosis. Scand J Work Environ Health, 26(3):227-236

Tüchsen F., Krause N., Hannerz H., Burr H., Kristensen T.S. (2000) Standing at work and varicose veins. Scand J Work Environ Health, 26(5):414-420.

Tüchsen F., Hannerz H., Burr H.,Krause N. (2005) Prolonged standing at work and hospitalisation due to varicose veins: a 12 year prospective study of the Danish population. Occup Environ Med. 2005 December; 62(12): 847–850.

(Wilks S., Mortimer M., Nylén P. (2005) The introduction of sit–stand worktables; aspects of attitudes, compliance and satisfaction. App. Erg., 37 (3), 359-365.​

How many people do you know who completely ignore all the gaming recommendations and actually come to harm?

Well, one I don't monitor people close for this and two, I believe the 'harm' as you put it is generally various gradual physiological deterioration which may not manifest itself immediately so it's somewhat difficult to say - particularly as I have no medical qualifications ito support a diagnosis.

And I reckon the 10-15 minutes every half is based on exactly the same scientific evidence - none at all

Lots of studies, the most recent of which I've listed. Are some warnings based on little evidence? Almost certainly, but this particular guidance? No, there's been several dozen independent studies dome by competent bodies in many countries and oddly, the findings corroborate the guidance. But because the average health of people changes as lifestyles change, new studies happen frequently. I think it's fair to say that for many people, they live a fair more sedimentary life than they would have had they lived it 20 years earlier.

I notice the XBox gaming guidelines don't mention a 15 minute break recommendation. Are MS flouting the scientific evidence supporting that recommendation, or is there none and MS just giving their own common-sense advice?

However their guidance does note the importance of taking regular breaks seven times. Are Microsoft obliged to make the consumer aware of health issue regarding the use of their products? I guess that depends on where the Xbox is sold - I don't believe this is a requirement in the EU. Is this sufficient to protect Microsoft? In the US and EU and in any legal jurisdiction that based upon a reasonable penumbra of uncertainly, I'd say yes.

EDIT: grammar.
 
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Look at a packet of ham and its 'once opened, consume within 3 days' lie that leads millions of people to believe 4 day old ham is dangerous and chuck it out, as an example of where warnings can be bunkum. A cautious lawyer wouldn't have to make data up - he'd just want enough of a caution to low-ball and cover their asses.

Who found the original 10-15 minutes per hour recommendation and what's the basis? How many people do you know who completely ignore all the gaming recommendations and actually come to harm? Among my circles, zero. I reckon the 10-15 minutes every hour isn't based on scientific investigation any more than 8 cups of water a day or 21 units of alcohol for men and 14 for women a week is.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8656565/Safe-drinking-limits-to-be-reviewed.html

And I reckon the 10-15 minutes every half is based on exactly the same scientific evidence - none at all because no-one really cares, everyone playing computer games does so for hours at a time, but to avoid culpability, companies put on generic warnings and advices based on a couple of fringe instances of epilepsy and what-have-you. I notice the XBox gaming guidelines don't mention a 15 minute break recommendation. Are MS flouting the scientific evidence supporting that recommendation, or is there none and MS just giving their own common-sense advice?
What you say happens. But it is not just that. We have the opposite occasions too.

It all depends on the expected behavior of the consumer.
If a business is unsure of the possible health safety issues they will add excessive warnings so they are covered
If a business knows there are various valid health safety concerns but the product will be of high demand and profitable, they will add the warnings so they are covered.
If a business knows there are various valid health safety concerns but they can fabricate studies they will do it (the pharmaceutical industry comes in mind)
If short term studies dont show reason of concern but a long term study is needed to assess long term health issues, they will use the short term study to approve the product if they can.
If something shouldnt be consumed but there are huge economic interests,the product will be approved and subjective quality standards will be set so that the product ends in the hands of the consumer.
There are tons of things that we consume at a daily basis that we shouldnt. Despite that since the consequences come at a slow, subtle process which makes it hard to make the association with the source of the problem or because the products have become part of our daily lives our minds undermine the dangers and no new studies are being done or used to remove product from shelves.
 
The 15 minutes is a result of a culmination of a lot of studies which seem to get repeated quite often. You'll find these going back to the 1980s if you care to look but listing just those studies conducted since the year 2000:

Lots of studies, the most recent of which I've listed...
I'm seeing a lot on the need to sit/stand, derived from studies in particular of the work place (going by the titles). Which is the sort of evidence I expect decisions are based on. Has someone performed a study into breaks and computer games, and determined that 45 minutes play + 15 minutes break is the average requirement? Considering no-one performed an investigation into how much alcohol was safe to consume and that's a far more widespread and obviously damaging activity, I'd be surprised if someone's performed a real study on computer gaming and breaks - it's just too low priority. So I reckon a lot of vaguely related reports were looked at and some mostly-unsubstantiated guidelines drawn up. Not to mention that some scientific 'investigations' are heavily prejudiced in favour of a perspective and are unreliable, or just incompetently executed - even the existence of a study doesn't prove its validity until properly scientifically tested.

However their guidance does note the importance of taking regular breaks seven times. Are Microsoft obliged to make the consumer aware of health issue regarding the use of their products? I guess that depends on where the Xbox is sold - I don't believe this is a requirement in the EU. Is this sufficient to protect Microsoft? In the US and EU and in any legal jurisdiction that based upon a reasonable penumbra of uncertainly, I'd say yes.
Right. So they don't need a figure. They just need 'take breaks'. If there was a scientifically derived figure where everyone should be taking 15 minutes off every 45 minutes of play, MS would be amiss not to state as much. Ergo, I posit that that study doesn't exist, and the current scientific understanding tops out at, "take breaks," without any numbers for frequency or duration, derived from general observations of loosely related studies.

But that's going OT really and unnecessary to your original point about VR being scary. Instead, I present Exhibit A, a Samsung manual for a Samsung mobile device. The US manual has 20 pages of health and safety info:
http://downloadcenter.samsung.com/c..._Tab_PRO_KK_English_User_Manual_NAE_F5_AC.pdf

The UK manual has none. Okay, perhaps the UK Health and Safety is supplied in a(n even lengthier) separate document, so let's just look at the US Health and Safety contents.

  • Potentially Explosive Environments
    Switch your mobile device off when in any area with a potentially explosive atmosphere and obey all signs and instructions. Sparks in such areas could cause an explosion or fire resulting in bodily in jury or even death. Users are advised to switch the mobile device off while at a refuelling point (service station).
This theory was based on coincidence and not scientific research. A couple of fires were attributed to mobile phones, but actual study finds static electricity the culprit. And those studies go back a decade, yet here we have Samsung putting in a pointless warning just in case, even though mobile phones don't create sparks and can't ignite explosive atmospheres. A warning based on zero scientific evidence. Actually, opposed to the real scientific evidence.

So can we really trust that everything they state in their warnings is scientifically valid, well researched, and actually something every user of VR is going to have to partake of?

Here's Sony's H&S advice:
Use and handling of video games to reduce the likelihood of a seizure:
  • Use in a well-lit area and keep as far away as possible from the television screen.
  • Avoid large screen televisions. Use the smallest television screen available.
  • Avoid prolonged use of the PlayStation® system.
  • Take a 15-minute break during each hour of play.
  • Avoid playing when you are tired or need sleep.
Better get rid of that big-screen TV of yours and game on a 20" monitor viewed from 12 feet away... :p
 
I just seen like 10 new Sony patents related to HMD. 1 with Eye tracking & another about having a camera that allow you to see the real world when you look a certain way making the display transparent.
 
Eye-tracking + foveated rendering is pretty necessary to get decent quality onto the headset. If Sony get it working (I think it'd need two or three render passes, one each a higher-resolution, smaller window on the game world, so it should be fairly easy to add to games as long as the libraries are there giving eye direction), PS4 won't be the horrifically underpowered box for VR that we might be fearing it is, and a 1440p or 4k display will be usable for better quality.
 
Eye-tracking + foveated rendering is pretty necessary to get decent quality onto the headset. If Sony get it working (I think it'd need two or three render passes, one each a higher-resolution, smaller window on the game world, so it should be fairly easy to add to games as long as the libraries are there giving eye direction), PS4 won't be the horrifically underpowered box for VR that we might be fearing it is, and a 1440p or 4k display will be usable for better quality.

-There is also one about rendering to a HMD.
 
I'm seeing a lot on the need to sit/stand, derived from studies in particular of the work place (going by the titles). Which is the sort of evidence I expect decisions are based on. Has someone performed a study into breaks and computer games, and determined that 45 minutes play + 15 minutes break is the average requirement?

Not that I know of, but is this necessary? The studies are intended to monitor the long term effects of repetitive low-movement activities. If you're reading a book, watching a TV or playing a game, although there's likely be some variation between actual movements, the posture of the body as during low activities is the focus, not what the person specifically is doing.

So I reckon a lot of vaguely related reports were looked at and some mostly-unsubstantiated guidelines drawn up. Not to mention that some scientific 'investigations' are heavily prejudiced in favour of a perspective and are unreliable, or just incompetently executed - even the existence of a study doesn't prove its validity until properly scientifically tested.

This seems like a very bold claim, can you give some examples? But I disagree in principle, this isn't something that can be "scientifically tested", you can only study the effects and reports them with some conclusions. Human bodies are a high degree of tolerances and human behaviour is very diverse. Conclusions result in guidelines, some of which make it into legislation. Not, as far as I know, in the case of consumer goods in the UK but certainly in the case of an employer/employee relationship. Daft notions, particularly those that come with considerations costs, as these do, tend to get updated fast - yet we've had the 15 minute guidelines for a few decades. In many countries.

Right. So they don't need a figure. They just need 'take breaks'. If there was a scientifically derived figure where everyone should be taking 15 minutes off every 45 minutes of play, MS would be amiss not to state as much.

I'd think a specific suggestion would be better. What is a "regular break"? It's wide open to interpretation but the penumbra of uncertainty would probably (not definitely) save them if a case were to go to court. It's certainly liberally interpreted by UK courts. Microsoft have chosen not to be specific. Perhaps it's nothing more than them not wanting to having to tailor H&S guidelines for the different regions.

Ergo, I posit that that study doesn't exist, and the current scientific understanding tops out at, "take breaks," without any numbers for frequency or duration, derived from general observations of loosely related studies.

The studies I listed are published, the obviously exist. If you've looking for one overall study you may not find that. Not every piece of legislation is the result or evidences by a single piece of evidence, in fact this is probably the exception rather than the rule.

Users are advised to switch the mobile device off while at a refuelling point (service station).

This theory was based on coincidence and not scientific research.

And the same can be said for the prohibition on using mobile phones on planes. It's the nature of regulation to control or prohibit that which may be dangerous. The alternative is to allow it to happen while you conduct a multi-year study to prove it's not.. If it is dangerous, the risk of explosions at petrol stations or planes dropping out of the sky is of course untenable. Why haven't these guidelines been remove? I don't know but I'd speculate that there just isn't any kind of incentive to undertake scientific studies to demonstrate safety. The truth is it's far easier to demonstrate something is dangerous than it is safe.

Better get rid of that big-screen TV of yours and game on a 20" monitor viewed from 12 feet away... :p
It's a trifling 49". Tiny! ;)
 
A lot of this debate is OT so I'll just stcik to the most relevant point...
And the same can be said for the prohibition on using mobile phones on planes.
There's evidence that mobile signals can interfere with avionics. That's different to proof that mobile phones can't trigger and explosion. Plus mobiles are starting to be allowed on flights. And flights are pretty ridiculous in their degree of prohibition anyway!
It's the nature of regulation to control or prohibit that which may be dangerous. The alternative is to allow it to happen while you conduct a multi-year study to prove it's not.. If it is dangerous, the risk of explosions at petrol stations or planes dropping out of the sky is of course untenable. Why haven't these guidelines been remove? I don't know but I'd speculate that there just isn't any kind of incentive to undertake scientific studies to demonstrate safety. The truth is it's far easier to demonstrate something is dangerous than it is safe.
That's different to the idea that the guidelines are based on scientific research. The suggested best-practice for switching off mobiles at petrol stations was based on hearsay, not science. And even after the science is conclusive, the guidance is to switch off mobiles. Exactly the same could be happening with the VR recommendations. Whoever drafted up these notices had some info from somewhere, possibly hearsay, and has included it, but it may not come from a decent scientific investigation any more than the alcohol recommendation did or the 'switch off mobiles at petrol stations' did.

Effectively, the warnings can be ignored. Accuracy is questionable and warnings possibly even baseless. Use the apparatus and if you feel odd or queasy, stop. That's what everyone's going to do anyway and, IMHO, the warnings are there to catch anything unpredicted. The alternative is to give very minimal warnings, release the product, find people are affected and then get sued because your product harmed people in a way no-one predicted. It's that case that I feel these warnings are more about, and not actual instruction.

If there is a real risk, it'll be undocumented and appear when the product is in the wild and people start dropping like flies or losing their marbles. And none of those poor folk is going to be able to sue Samsung or OVR or Sony because they all basically told you not to use VR because it was going to melt your brain, so you've only yourself to blame. ;)
 
A lot of this debate is OT so I'll just stcik to the most relevant point...

And let's also clarify what we're discussing, because I'm referring to liability under law and you keep citing guidelines, and these are very different. The law, which is passed based on evidence following a public consultation and presentation of said evidence, is there for public safety. Guidelines, which is everything you've listed (use by dates, guidelines on not using mobile phones) are opinions made by a body and which are almost entirely optional.

There's evidence that mobile signals can interfere with avionics. That's different to proof that mobile phones can't trigger and explosion. Plus mobiles are starting to be allowed on flights. And flights are pretty ridiculous in their degree of prohibition anyway!

Let's be clear, there is no aircraft malfunction that has been attributed to a mobile device. That's an incontrovertible fact. There is some data that demonstrates that some devices (old by today's standards) used in or very near the cabin, can affect the flight deck equipment. It is for this reason that, to the best of my knowledge anyway, that the FAA, CAA and their regional equivalents do not ban the use of phones but leave this to the discretion of operators. This is a guideline (nor law).

Similarly, the use of mobile phones at fuel stations. There's no legislation that I'm aware that prohibits usage, only guidelines against using them. Whatever the original reason there are sufficient cases of mobiles catching fire to consider this perhaps a sensible precaution. This is also a guideline.

That's different to the idea that the guidelines are based on scientific research. The suggested best-practice for switching off mobiles at petrol stations was based on hearsay, not science.

And why these are guidelines and not legislation. However, H&S and product liability are legislation - at least in the EU and many other countries like Australia, Canada, Japan, New Zealand. Here in the UK the primary legislation is the Consumer Protection Act 1987, on which many other supplementary Orders are established.

I've posted on how law is passed in the UK (based on evidence) in the past so I'll refer you to that which is the distinction between the body of evidence required to pass a law. If you really want to pursue the evidence used to pass laws, you can certainly get this publicly because it would have been published and 'robustly tested' (made sure it's bullshit).

If there is a real risk, it'll be undocumented and appear when the product is in the wild and people start dropping like flies or losing their marbles. And none of those poor folk is going to be able to sue Samsung or OVR or Sony because they all basically told you not to use VR because it was going to melt your brain, so you've only yourself to blame. ;)

Here's the difference. When a company like Samsung is liable under statutory regulation for harm or other ill effects resulting from the use of their prodicts, it's not just a case of potentially facing a civil suit from the customer, you've got the legislation's regulator on your arse - in this case the Department of Business, Innovation and Skills (what used to the Department of Trade & Industry). They can stop you selling, fine you, revoke licences and authorisations you need to trade. That is not a risk you take.

So back to those cautious lawyers. To retread where I entered; I've never met a cautious lawyer render a view without knowing the facts. Particularly where new technology and consumers are concerned. They will have undertaken some studies. You mentioned "low-balling" the risk but to low/high ball anything you have to have a benchmark for that risk - a study in other words. Otherwise it's just a guess. And cautious lawyers don't guess. If they go to court they'll want to present exhibit A, this study of 1,000 people who were monitored while using the product with various degrees of effects over different periods of time. Then demonstrate, and convince a jury, that their product usage instructions were sensible and realistic.
 
This thread could use a split and pruning, IMO. To separate out the VR health and safety talk.

Regardless, here's an interesting article over at GamesInudustry.biz. Its focus is largely on the limitations currently facing a consumer VR solution. No revelations, but I found it interesting all the same.
 
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