So is the cell spe's "downgrade" confirmed ?

[expletive]

Just a PSA here. If you come on the thread and make very precise claims about things like core usage and OS usage then people are going to immediately ask you how you know this. So please state your sources up front...or your NDA. Thanks.

 

[heliosphere]

Do you know why 32 MB of video memory is reserved in the PS3?

I would assume they need some video memory for render targets. I don't know why they need 32MB specifically though. Maybe they're planning on letting people output video on the second output while a game is being played, though that seems like it would have too much impact on system memory bandwidth (not to mention I/O usage) to be transparent to the game.

 

[heliosphere]

...or your NDA. Thanks.

Yeah, I've probably already said more than I should. I'll shut up now.

 

[Barnaby Jones]

i've actually heard it uses 64 MB of the GPU ram, 32 megs of the CPU RAM.


And I just got confirmation, the X360 does indeed use 32 megs of RAM. Something to think about at the very least. :smile:

 

[expletive]

Yeah, I've probably already said more than I should. I'll shut up now.

AW shucks!

 

[Hardknock]

No, the 360 only reserves 32MB. PS3 currently reserves 64MB of main memory and 32MB of video memory.

whoa, so that thread posted earlier that got locked was correct then?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I would assume they need some video memory for render targets. I don't know why they need 32MB specifically though.

Seems to me to be a lot of graphics memory. 1080p is 2 million pixels, at 32 bit is 8 megs a screen. Frontbuffer + backbuffer, is 16 Mb. Maybe a GUI buffer too, rendered separately for blending with the main image (video conferencing), though if you're doing that, overlaying the OS GUI, the game would need to be output to the same buffers. If this OS VRAM usage includes the frontbuffer and...primary backbuffer, that'd be understandable. 4 whole screens worth of data for GUI sounds extravagant. I guess the GUI widgets could be stored here, loaded from HDD on startup, but that seems wasteful. It'd be nice to have vector widgets for smoooooth drawing, something like Flash on steroids. That'd provide proper edge-antialiasing and funky effects, all for negligable RAM consumption

 

[Titanio]

Seems to me to be a lot of graphics memory. 1080p is 2 million pixels, at 32 bit is 8 megs a screen. Frontbuffer + backbuffer, is 16 Mb. Maybe a GUI buffer too, rendered separately for blending with the main image (video conferencing), though if you're doing that, overlaying the OS GUI, the game would need to be output to the same buffers. If this OS VRAM usage includes the frontbuffer and...primary backbuffer, that'd be understandable. 4 whole screens worth of data for GUI sounds extravagant. I guess the GUI widgets could be stored here, loaded from HDD on startup, but that seems wasteful. It'd be nice to have vector widgets for smoooooth drawing, something like Flash on steroids. That'd provide proper edge-antialiasing and funky effects, all for negligable RAM consumption

How do you figure multiple video streams would fit in here? (video chat) With HD cameras, you might be dealing with multiple 1080p streams (or their equivalent), even if not all are rendered out at that resolution (some may be downsampled to a smaller window or whatever).

I guess you'd also need a buffer or buffers for PSPs, though relatively speak they'd be very small.

 

[Mmmkay]

whoa, so that thread posted earlier that got locked was correct then?

Heliosphere would need to clarify what he meant by 'render target'. It seems like he's suggesting that 32MB of the VRAM is partitioned for the framebuffer, which wouldn't be a 'loss' - more a necessity. The other thread implied OS reservation alone, so that would also need framebuffer allocation above the '96MB'.

 

[supervegeta]

The OS serves the purpose of the device, and thus the choices are not the game devs to make. As an example, perhaps digital recording to HDD is possible on PS3? If so, the resources needed to do that might well be reserved so the PS3 console can record programs while someone is playing games. You can't leave it to the game developer to enable/disable that feature. That would confuse the market too much, needing owners to be sure to only run games that allow for certain other features to be multitasked whioe gaming.

You can do this without confusing anyone, like Microsft alredy did this with the first xbox, where the custom soundtrack for example are not supported in all games.

 

[Hardknock]

Heliosphere would need to clarify what he meant by 'render target'. It seems like he's suggesting that 32MB of the VRAM is partitioned for the framebuffer, which wouldn't be a 'loss' - more a necessity. The other thread implied OS reservation alone, so that would also need framebuffer allocation above the '96MB'.

Yeah I would love if he could clarify. I understand if he's skating too close to an NDA though

But he directly compares the 96MB on the PS3 to the "only 32MB" that the 360 uses. So that's 3 times the amount, I'm just curious what they are using all this space for??

 

[Titanio]

You can do this without consufing anyone, like Microsft alredy did this with the first xbox, where the custom soundtrack for example are not supported in all games.

The point is, something like pvr which was Shifty's example couldn't be something that was supported in some games and not in others. Ditto for other kinds of functionality like "video blogging", media serving to remote or local PSPs etc. That kind of stuff can happen any time without the player's intervention or prompting. You can't say "oops! the wrong game is being played. Try again later", or "oops! there goes the tv show you wanted recorded. should have played xyz instead!" (assuming the rumoured pvr functionality).

 

[supervegeta]

The point is, something like pvr which was Shifty's example couldn't be something that was supported in some games and not in others. Ditto for other kinds of functionality like "video blogging", media serving to remote or local PSPs etc. That kind of stuff can happen any time without the player's intervention or prompting. You can't say "oops! the wrong game is being played. Try again later", or "oops! there goes the tv show you wanted recorded. should have played xyz instead!" (assuming the rumoured pvr functionality).

You are always talking about things that the casual gamer could not care less , and want to make it look like it is a big deal.

 

[supervegeta]

Yeah I would love if he could clarify. I understand if he's skating too close to an NDA though

But he directly compares the 96MB on the PS3 to the "only 32MB" that the 360 uses. So that's 3 times the amount, I'm just curious what they are using all this space for??

There is an interview with the Microsft Os developer that said the xbox360 Os use 32mb and the 5% of one core, but i can't find the link.

 

[Titanio]

You are always talking about things that the casual gamer could not care less , and want to make it look like it is a big deal.

Casuals would like hop all over the likes of pvr or video-blogging, if it was actually there. And they'd simply want it to WORK every time, and not care for your explanations of "well, this game needed a certain amount of cpu time, this wouldn't didn't" etc. etc. That would not go over well. If you set up your PS3 to record, for example, your favourite TV show, and you missed it because little timmy was playing some game that just couldn't live without the extra 10-15% of resources, you probably would care. You'd come to view it as unreliable, and not use the functionality at all.

Casuals, and really, well, anyone, just want things to be easy and to work well. Period. Unpredictability isn't a good thing for either consumers or developers.

 

[mckmas8808]

Yeah I would love if he could clarify. I understand if he's skating too close to an NDA though

But he directly compares the 96MB on the PS3 to the "only 32MB" that the 360 uses. So that's 3 times the amount, I'm just curious what they are using all this space for??

Great minds must think a like, because I'm wondering the samething.

 

[Mmmkay]

Yeah I would love if he could clarify. I understand if he's skating too close to an NDA though

But he directly compares the 96MB on the PS3 to the "only 32MB" that the 360 uses. So that's 3 times the amount, I'm just curious what they are using all this space for??

Well, that 32MB reservation is for the OS alone for the 360, nothing about frontbuffer reservation for the eDRAM. But you're right, things are getting quite eyebrow raising...

Since we're in full blown speculation mode until heliosphere breaks his NDA ... Perhaps we're seeing the consequence of persistent storage (HDD) supporting the main memory. Having a secondary data stream source should reduce the necessity to rely heavily on System RAM for texture storage. 32MB is quite a sizeable amount to reserve and on this information I would be surprised now if the HDD wasn't standard. Just a throwaway theory though

 

[Shifty Geezer]

How do you figure multiple video streams would fit in here? (video chat) With HD cameras, you might be dealing with multiple 1080p streams (or their equivalent).

I don't and didn't factor that in. I guess a case could be made for a 1080p camera image (EyeToy use) and 1080p video footage and 1080p game output. 1080p video conferencing...maybe that'll take off in Korea. Dont' think my 2 megabit connection will be up to that though

If you're going with multiple full 1080p buffers, 32 MB likely won't be enough. Perhaps a case for the '64 MB GDDR, 32 Mb XDR' suggestion? Providing rsources for that level of functionality that will likely rarely be used strikes me as a terrible inefficiency, epecially when most people don't have and won't have 1080p sets and will still be watching DVDs if they do watch any films. If Sony are trying to future proof, I think their future-proofing is too aggressive and they should have cutback on future capabilities to better accomodate contemporary uses. Having the resources to stream 16 different movies to 16 different PSPs while showing four 1080p movies downscaled onto the one screen while gaming on another may make for an impressive features list, but it's not really something most people will care for and is taking resources away from things people are more intersted in. They have to set the balance between functionality of the OS and resource use, and I don't think multiple 1080p is the right balance. I'd prefer those complex multitasking features kept in the OS only mode, not while gaming. For those that do want to video conference 8 1080p images while watching 24 1080p movies and use all the SPEs, having to boot into Linux and not be able to do that while gaming is I think a fair sacrifice.

 

[supervegeta]

Casuals would like hop all over the likes of pvr or video-blogging, if it was actually there. And they'd simply want it to WORK every time, and not care for your explanations of "well, this game needed a certain amount of cpu time, this wouldn't didn't" etc. etc. That would not go over well. If you set up your PS3 to record, for example, your favourite TV show, and you missed it because little timmy was playing some game that just couldn't live without the extra 10-15% of resources, you probably would care. You'd come to view it as unreliable, and not use the functionality at all.

Casuals, and really, well, anyone, just want things to be easy and to work well. Period. Unpredictability isn't a good thing for either consumers or developers.

The casual gamer could not care less about pvr, multiple video stream, video chat, video blogging, ecc, the most part of the ps2 owners don't even care about online play.

 

[Titanio]

I don't and didn't factor that in. I guess a case could be made for a 1080p camera image (EyeToy use) and 1080p video footage and 1080p game output. 1080p video conferencing...maybe that'll take off in Korea. Dont' think my 2 megabit connection will be up to that though

True, but with a HD camera attached, presumably a HD image will stream through and need to be downsampled before being sent out to a friend. Not that this would necessarily require the memory foot-print for a whole frame at all times..(?)

As for the rest, that's a slight exaggeration But for the features they're trying to support or rumoured to be supporting, there's certainly a significant amount of demand that could be placed on the OS at any one time.

The casual gamer could not care less about pvr, multiple video stream, video chat, video blogging, ecc,

Says...you? I'd disagree, particularly on the first and last.