Shadow of the Colossus (Remake 2018) [PS4]

[OCASM]

To be fair, that's slightly muddled. The scenery is much more like PS4 SOTC than PS2 ICO. The bloom is toned down, and the protagonist is more cel shaded. But we do have low contrast and exaggerated whites. I don't think it's so much 'Ueda style' as 'SOTC style' that's important (for those lamenting the new look).

Yes, the style of the original SotC and ICO has some differences from the style of TLG in 2016, that's true. Two points:

• The style of TLG (2016) was kept intact in the CGI trailer. The idea that high fidelity assets or more advanced rendering techniques somehow wouldn't work with it is clearly wrong.
• The style of SotC (2005), also shared by TLG (2009), is more realistic, which actually makes it easier to integrate with more modern technologies and asset workflows.

 

[Nesh]

Basic SSS is PS3-level tech. Even some PS2 games used the half-lambert trick to somewhat mimick it. This remake doesn't even do that.

The great majority did not. Move on

Now, the idea that somehow Ueda's style clashes with high-end graphics is complete bullshit. Here's TLG's CG trailer, which surpasses any game in existence in terms of surface detail and rendering quality:

Oh look, Ueda's style was kept intact!

The Original Shadow of the Colossus and The Last Guardian dont have the exact same aesthetics either even though they have similarities like the exaggerated whites. But TLG doesnt have that "ghostly" look but it constantly destroys the detail. It is ALSO more saturated and brighter than the original Shadow of the Colossus.

Ironically the Remake is even darker looking that TLG.

Making a CG version of the real time graphics doesn't change the argument.
Trico is the technical highlight in TLG whether you look at the real time or the CG footage. Without him, TLG looses from the impression it makes no matter which footage you look at.
CG always will be better than real time graphics in terms of IQ. This is awesome from the artistic point of view, but it is still a mixed bag, lots of detail appears crashed and lost from the bloom.

It still shows that the bloom is a double edged sword.

As for the characters, I doubt BP's intent was to make them look like plastic dolls.

Irrelevant and subjective

I already demonstrated that the fog and the bloom are in fact stylistic choices, not hacks to hide technical defficiencies. You can see the same thing in films: some directors choose to minimize bloom and others make great use of it like Spielberg, for example. Fog also serves to give depth to a scene, hence why Hollywood loves to put fog everywhere, even indoors.

The Remake of the Colossus also uses fog, bloom etc just like movies. The only difference is that they aren't persistent and oblivious of what is going on in the scene. Just like movies, they are contextual and controlled. Not so in the original which over did it and applied it constantly for the obvious reasons.

The rationale you propose as to why BP got rid of both, however, makes perfect sense. BP is a team of technical people, not artists. Their goal was to maximize detail, not maintain the aesthetics. That's also why shadows are razor sharp even though that makes no sense with an overcast sky. Or why rocks have a smooth specular shine that gives them a fake, plastic look. They just don't have the eye for these things nor do they seem care about them.

So I guess now you are the expert of video game graphics and you have to teach them a lesson.
They did an amazing job. One of the best there is. They are not the original team that worked on the original. The only reference was a game that was released 2 generations before and they had to guess the intentions and the priorities of the original team and meet the demands of the current market. The challenge was so large that you are being extremely unfair and your observations about the looks are super subjective

Which is complete bullshit. Just from soft to hard lighting/shadows is a massive difference in terms of look. Getting rid of the bloom is another. Switching to a monocromathic, mostly yellow, color palette is yet another one. And so on...

You know what else is bullshit? Your attitude.

 

[Karamazov]

time to split the thread i guess

 

[OCASM]

The great majority did not. Move on

The Original Shadow of the Colossus and The Last Guardian dont have the exact same aesthetics either even though they have similarities like the exaggerated whites. But TLG doesnt have that "ghostly" look but it constantly destroys the detail. It is ALSO more saturated and brighter than the original Shadow of the Colossus.

Ironically the Remake is even darker looking that TLG.

Making a CG version of the real time graphics doesn't change the argument.
Trico is the technical highlight in TLG whether you look at the real time or the CG footage. Without him, TLG looses from the impression it makes no matter which footage you look at.
CG always will be better than real time graphics in terms of IQ. This is awesome from the artistic point of view, but it is still a mixed bag, lots of detail appears crashed and lost from the bloom.

It still shows that the bloom is a double edged sword.

Irrelevant and subjective


The Remake of the Colossus also uses fog, bloom etc just like movies. The only difference is that they aren't persistent and oblivious of what is going on in the scene. Just like movies, they are contextual and controlled. Not so in the original which over did it and applied it constantly for the obvious reasons.


So I guess now you are the expert of video game graphics and you have to teach them a lesson.
They did an amazing job. One of the best there is. They are not the original team that worked on the original. The only reference was a game that was released 2 generations before and they had to guess the intentions and the priorities of the original team and meet the demands of the current market. The challenge was so large that you are being extremely unfair and your observations about the looks are super subjective


You know what else is bullshit? Your attitude.

1. You're the one claiming "visual outdatedness".
2. TLG (2009) has pretty much the same aesthetics of SotC (2005). The ghostly look is due to the bloom frame blending used to mimic HDR exposure adaptation. In other words, TLG (2005) was doing what Ueda wanted for SotC but couldn't do on the PS2.
4. The point is that Ueda's style and high-end visuals don't conflict with each other as you proposed.
3. Bloom doesn't "destroy" detail. White clipping does and SotC (2018) has plenty of that.
4. Irrelevant? It addresses the point you raised. The lack of SSS does make them look like they're made out of plastic.
5. No, the difference is that they minimize their use as much as possible for the sake of teh detailz!
6. I don't have to tell them anything nor do they had to guess anything. They could just either take a look at how Ueda's games actually look like or even just ask the man himself.
7. Nah

 

[milk]

OCASM. I understand your pain, and I think you are right.

 

[bunge]

You're arguing over the current line of reasoning based on something said six months ago?!

That's just dumb.

No, I don’t think I argued anything like what you claim. What I said was this:

Some shots look much improved but some look bland.

What’s dumb is pretending what someone said previously doesn’t potentially affect the interpretation of what they say now.

 

[London Geezer]

No, I don’t think I argued anything like what you claim. What I said was this:



What’s dumb is pretending what someone said previously doesn’t potentially affect the interpretation of what they say now.

Did you just quote yourself?

 

[Nesh]

1. You're the one claiming "visual outdatedness".
2. TLG (2009) has pretty much the same aesthetics of SotC (2005). The ghostly look is due to the bloom frame blending used to mimic HDR exposure adaptation. In other words, TLG (2005) was doing what Ueda wanted for SotC but couldn't do on the PS2.
4. The point is that Ueda's style and high-end visuals don't conflict with each other as you proposed.
3. Bloom doesn't "destroy" detail. White clipping does and SotC (2018) has plenty of that.
4. Irrelevant? It addresses the point you raised. The lack of SSS does make them look like they're made out of plastic.
5. No, the difference is that they minimize their use as much as possible for the sake of teh detailz!
6. I don't have to tell them anything nor do they had to guess anything. They could just either take a look at how Ueda's games actually look like or even just ask the man himself.
7. Nah

Really I am not gonna waste my time more

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What’s dumb is pretending what someone said previously doesn’t potentially affect the interpretation of what they say now.

It was six months ago and has no bearing on his attempt to be objective. Looking at that remark and then rejecting OCASM's current comments is simply prejudice - "this guy already hates on New SOTC so let's dismiss everything he says."

There can be more than one aspect to a discussion and they shouldn't get muddled.

time to split the thread i guess

I think it's kinda burnt out now. Everyone's said their piece. Probably not a lot to say about SOTC that wasn't said in 2005, and 2011. Although there's probably something to say about the monsters and their contemporary rendering. Does the hair clip the boy or is it properly physically modelled?

 

[London Geezer]

Yes, it would be nice to discuss the effects that are in the game, such as that beautiful fur.
And also the animation, which sadly looks a bit too similar to the original, where the animation was an abomination, in terms of gameplay. I’ll have to see when I actually get the game on Wednesday.

 

[Recop]

Actually the CG trailer of TLG looks much closer to the SOTC remake than the PS2/PS3 version...

 

[BRiT]

Just imagine what it'll look like on the third remake.

 

[bunge]

Just imagine what it'll look like on the third remake.

PSVR2 with C3LL confirmed!

 

[Nesh]

It was six months ago and has no bearing on his attempt to be objective. Looking at that remark and then rejecting OCASM's current comments is simply prejudice - "this guy already hates on New SOTC so let's dismiss everything he says."

There can be more than one aspect to a discussion and they shouldn't get muddled.

Discussing various aspects is routine in Beyond3d. We tend to disagree, agree, find middle grounds, change our minds etc.
I think it's OCASM's own prejudice, attitude and "black or white" approach that makes people respond differently with him.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I can see some of that, mixing his current posit with the emotional stance of earlier. Personally I find the 'true or false' arguments the most engaging regardless who's posting them because we should be able to get some concrete answers...Purple Sky!!!

 

[OCASM]

Discussing various aspects is routine in Beyond3d. We tend to disagree, agree, find middle grounds, change our minds etc.o
I think it's OCASM's own prejudice, attitude and "black or white" approach that makes people respond differently with him.

Nah, it's because some people just can't handle criticism of things they like.

Actually the CG trailer of TLG looks much closer to the SOTC remake than the PS2/PS3 version...

The only similarity is the amount of detail.

Yes, it would be nice to discuss the effects that are in the game, such as that beautiful fur.
And also the animation, which sadly looks a bit too similar to the original, where the animation was an abomination, in terms of gameplay. I’ll have to see when I actually get the game on Wednesday.

You'll be happy to know that the animation has been greatly improved:

 

[Recop]

The only similarity is the amount of detail.

You said : "Even the environments have lost all sense of realism, they look as if the artists simply mashed some "rock" brushes all over the place to get as much detail as possible."

Everything was supposed to be wrong in the SOTC remake according to you. Yet, you proved otherwise with your own sources... the pics i posted speak for themselves. It's useless to continue on this point.

When Ueda is free of any technical limitation, the result is actually closer to the SOTC remake.

But i agree on one point, while the animation is generally improved on the remake (see the video below) it is worse in some rare occasions. Also, Wander face was better in the original game.

 

[Nesh]

Ok for me that's a huge omission if true (about the animation). It's those subtle details that made the Shadow of the Colossus feel beyond its generation back in 2005

 

[London Geezer]

That new animation looks stiff to say the least. Lifeless. But again, we’ll have to see the finished product I guess.

 

[Clukos]

I kinda get the argument about losing a few things when compared against the original but I'll take more responsive controls and 60hz over anything else. I'm sure if they got Ueda to remake the game we'd get 20 fps and sluggish controls and people trying to convince us that's actually good and/or intended. I actually liked TLG but the performance was horrendous on a "regular" Ps4.