Scalability of ND's Uncharted engine *spawn

[Laa-Yosh]

Actually, I think that what we've arrived at as a conclusion is that the engine and the coding talent have very little to do with the richness of the game's graphics. Experienced and clever artists can sure make a difference, but that's also secondary.

The point is that it's the game's design that determines how the limited texture budget can be used. I'd just quote Betan here from earlier:

even for the most efficient theoretical streaming engine the available memory for current zone is always less than the linear case which only needs to stream one (or at most two) zones to the buffer.

So no matter how big coding wizards ND's programmers might be, they can't overcome the hardware limitations. Should they decide to do a free-roaming game, they'd also have to seriously limit texture usage for the artists, just as anyone else.

The problem with most of the posts in this thread is that many people are emotionally attached to their preferred console and try to defy reality in any way possible.


It's also worth noting that id's tech 5 is exactly the right solution for this problem with regards to the texture budget - and since it's a compromise as well, the engine has to suffer at other points (mostly lighting and shaders).

 

[Laa-Yosh]

There was a moment where talk shifted to artist work, though, when discussing LOD. I'm not sure how relevant it is to discuss how difficult/expensive it would be for artists to do the work, not for a game with U2's budget. Especially when we're considering what the engine can do.

Read that presentation on Saints Row already to see what I've been talking about, okay? I really can't do that for you.

 

[Prophecy2k]

Actually, I think that what we've arrived at as a conclusion is that the engine and the coding talent have very little to do with the richness of the game's graphics. Experienced and clever artists can sure make a difference, but that's also secondary.

The point is that it's the game's design that determines how the limited texture budget can be used. I'd just quote Betan here from earlier:



So no matter how big coding wizards ND's programmers might be, they can't overcome the hardware limitations. Should they decide to do a free-roaming game, they'd also have to seriously limit texture usage for the artists, just as anyone else.

The problem with most of the posts in this thread is that many people are emotionally attached to their preferred console and try to defy reality in any way possible.


It's also worth noting that id's tech 5 is exactly the right solution for this problem with regards to the texture budget - and since it's a compromise as well, the engine has to suffer at other points (mostly lighting and shaders).

EXCELLENT!!!!!! That was gonna be my very next question!!! Laa-Yosh you're not only a 3D Guru, you're also psychic mate I'll be keen to see what ID's Rage looks like compared to other open-world games...

So the answer to having an open-world game on the level of UC2 visually, would be either more console RAM (next-gen) or ID Tech 5...

Hmmnnn... interesting times ahead then i guess.

 

[MazingerDUDE]

Actually, I think that what we've arrived at as a conclusion is that the engine and the coding talent have very little to do with the richness of the game's graphics.

What made you to come to such conclusion? Uncharted 2 is the single most tech rich game out there.


HDR lighting
triple buffering
deferred lighting
motion blur per object
adjustable depth of field
SSAO
physics enabled particle effect
procedural texture
high quality multi texture
high complexity in geometry
high res shadows
animation blending

All in 1280 x 720 res with 2 x MSAA at steady 30fps


U2's most impressive visuals were achieved by combined strength of techs being used. In tech wise there's just nothing like it.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

And so I begin to hand out Ignore Awards.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

U2's most impressive visuals were achieved by combined strength of techs being used. In tech wise there's just nothing like it.

Don't take my sentences out of their context, OK?

Actually, I think that what we've arrived at as a conclusion is that the engine and the coding talent have very little to do with the richness of the game's graphics.
The point is that it's the game's design that determines how the limited texture budget can be used.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Can't seem to edit my post... anyway, the above statement was also meant to be a general conclusion about all console games and not UC2.

 

[MazingerDUDE]

Don't take my sentences out of their context, OK?

Actually, I think that what we've arrived at as a conclusion is that the engine and the coding talent have very little to do with the richness of the game's graphics.
The point is that it's the game's design that determines how the limited texture budget can be used.

That's making even less sense as the quality texture is not the main show in U2's visual. It's more to do with impressive lighting and effects like motion blur & dof. In fact, the texture fidelity has dropped from U1 in trade of more variety.

 

[psorcerer]

In fact, the texture fidelity has dropped from U1 in trade of more variety.

Triple buffering also contributed to reduced texture quality.

 

[MazingerDUDE]

Triple buffering also contributed to reduced texture quality.

Not quite, U1 was released when XMB blatantly stole 32MB of VRAM. It takes zero now.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Laa-Yosh you're not only a 3D Guru, you're also psychic mate

Heh, no way the merit goes to Volition for making that presentation.

I just try to read interesting looking stuff from GDCs and such, and this one sticked because I was so surprised to learn how streaming actually works in such games, how different it is to what I thought was going on.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Triple buffering also contributed to reduced texture quality.

That's only one 720p screen buffer, ~3MBs, and as MazingDUDE points out, available RAM has increased. So in essence from U1, triple buffering has been added 'free of charge'.

 

[Fafalada]

It's also worth noting that id's tech 5 is exactly the right solution for this problem with regards to the texture budget

As long as you keep your "open-world" suitably small. Which is not entirely different from the argument aimed at U2 to begin with...

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Yeah, well, id decided to do a small world with completely unique texturing.
That's one way to take advantage of virtual texturing, but as far as I understand, it is still possible to use tiling textures, and maybe even multiple texture layers. So a game could theoretically leverage the tech in a different way, although from what we've seen about the editor, id doesn't really encourage it yet.
Next-gen hardware could probably start to manage larger worlds, but that's the point where the asset creation bottleneck would get too big to overcome...

Maybe Brink is going to do it differently?

 

[semitope]

I think that's the point. There appeared to be some folk of the opinion that a truly open world game could look as good as U2 does. Laa-Yosh's point is that U2 squeezes as much detail in as it does by carefully managing what is loaded when, meaning you only have in RAM stuff you are looking at, rather than stuff you may look at in a moment. His case study shows where the engine gets a 'breather' to swap out assets. A fully streamed engine wouldn't have time to load the next set of sceneries to the detail of U2.

For anyone still disputing this, they'd need to showcase one of the more open-ended levels that show lots of detail and lots of freedom of motion.

I don't think you guys are even considering the fact that it all depends on the players mobility. How quickly can the player exit the previously streamed data into the next. Open world is not a finely defined term either. Can U2 engine replicate gta4 scope including the players mobility? Probably not without some concessions; can it do an open world game with similar graphic fidelity? Most likely. The problem then becomes putting in the assets (like has been mentioned... huge budget, dual layer bluray etc etc)

AC is the most comparable one here. Even in the open areas outside of cities you will never really be travelling through lush forests or anything like that. Its usually just plains with buildings scattered around (not too much to render i think).

Also i think ND has bragged even if just slightly. As a first party developer I would expect them to mention console power as fully tapped and would create an even better looking game, not through the power of the console but through their own tech. I might be interpreting that incorrectly but you might as well not say anything in that case unless your intention is to point out your own leet.

UC3 doesnt need to follow the trend of going open world. There is nothing wrong with limited mobility as long as levels offer significant variation and they vary the gameplay (they really need to add a lot of variation for the next Uncharted). I hate when developers follow trends, just make the game you want to make. If that were not the case we would not have so many darn shooters running around or so much of that stupid DLC acronym.

 

[Acert93]

Might be a balance for 360 titles. Plus minus stuff but roughly same average or same ballpark. It's just it's quite seldom to hear 360 devs "brag" about the same basic stuff (IMO) as PS3 devs do. I wont even name PC as most of that stuff is pretty basic and better stuff used beyond that has been there since years back, many years.

Obviously there is not argueing against the quality packed into UC2, and ND really are some of the best in the industry in terms of technical excellence, but I agree that that list wasn't jaw dropping. I do find how ND was able to manage scene size and balance with all their features, at the quality level, and keep a solid framerate and *engaging gameplay within their budgets* pretty amazing. A lot of times you can see where a game's design stretches the boundaries of the technology and IQ or more often framerate suffer. ND did a great job with their set peices and a great job with their technology to give their designers enough freedom to do what they wanted without compromising the technical excellence.

Whoever crafted their project's technology and design and had their hand on the sequences to fit within their scope really did a killer job.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Uncharted has been conceived as an adventure game in the style of great adventure movies like the Indiana Jones and Mummy series. They chose this type of gameplay because it fits the concept the best, allowing them to create an exciting and memorable ride with lots of spectacles. I don't see them abandoning it either, although one has to wonder how they could improve it once again, considering how polished UC2 is.

 

[semitope]

Uncharted has been conceived as an adventure game in the style of great adventure movies like the Indiana Jones and Mummy series. They chose this type of gameplay because it fits the concept the best, allowing them to create an exciting and memorable ride with lots of spectacles. I don't see them abandoning it either, although one has to wonder how they could improve it once again, considering how polished UC2 is.

Guess thats why games go open world. Its tough to create a compelling experience over and over while maintaining interest. Open world alleviates that a bit I think; You leave it up to the player to make their own fun with mission types you put in the game. Race here, deliver that, chase this -- rinse and repeat.

Will be interesting to see how the next infamous turns out. Should give some example of how much graphics can really be packed into a console open world game (being exclusive to the ps3, they can do more with streaming and the whole game tech in general).

 

[flynn]

Also i think ND has bragged even if just slightly. As a first party developer I would expect them to mention console power as fully tapped and would create an even better looking game, not through the power of the console but through their own tech. I might be interpreting that incorrectly but you might as well not say anything in that case unless your intention is to point out your own leet.

That's not the impression I got from the videos. They mentioned how they make better use of the hardware by moving some of the stuff they did in-GPU in U1 to the SPUs, for example. That's clever coding and good use of the machine's strengths. There's some interesting stuff in the Mastering the Cell video although it doesn't go into full detail. Hoping for a debriefing with more info.

So I didn't see any 'we are l33t' attitude. Are they proud about what they achieved? Of course, and they should! But they sounded to me like smart and very passionate people, both the programmers and the artists.

Going back on topic I think the U2 engine could pull a very good looking open world if they had a mandatory install and were not limited by the 2Gb HD cache. They already repeat a lot of textures (check the doors in the houses in chapter 16 for example) so with clever texture reuse and some modifications to their streaming technology I think it's possible, asset creation budget notwithstanding.

How do games like GTA deal with textures, do they just keep everything in memory and result in less varied environments or is the some streaming going on as you move?

I wonder how a streaming approach would have worked in Fallout3 and if it would have made it possible to enter/leave buildings without having to reload.

 

[Richard]

How do games like GTA deal with textures, do they just keep everything in memory and result in less varied environments or is the some streaming going on as you move?

In GTA4 it's all about the streaming and clever LoD (high polys -> polys -> sprites even).

About U2's engine and Open World, isn't there at least one sequence where Drake climbs atop a building and has a huge view of the environment? If so, studying the trade-ofs of that scene could shed some light.