Rumour: Epic to focus on Tech only, exit Video Game Development?

Tech-only didn't work out so great for Lithtech and Gamebryo.
And yet it's proving good for Unity. I don't think making a game is necessary to make a good engine. Quite the converse, if you make an engine in support of a game, it'll become lop-sided in favour of that game. That's one of the issue licensing tech from non-middleware-focussed companies comes with. You want it do x, y, z, but their priorities are m, n, o as their game wants, and you never get the support you desire.

That's not to say Epic couldn't do both, but they'd need to separate the game development from the engine development, and in effect be two studios operating under the same name but fairly independent. In which case, what's in a name? What does it matter if the people making games with UE4 are called Epic or someone else? If the studios style and identity is strongly present in its content (like Team ICO as an extreme) than the end of that studio making games is a loss when the personnel scatter to new companies. But Epic made very little, space shooters continuing the Doom theme. Any number of devs can step up to that plate and do just as good a job. Even an IP like Gears or UT could be transferred to a new developer with no obvious loss.

Or putting it another way, if Team ICO was rumoured to be going engine only, I'd go "Wahhhhh!", but Epic games going engine only, I say, "yeah, okay." :p
 
Yes, as of August 2012, Epic obtained the full ownership of People Can Fly.

It's still true that PCF is not Epic, perhaps it's like being on different development teams and the largest difference having to do with legal and financial corporation distinctions.

Then maybe hasn't stopped developing titles. Maybe they are restructuring to provide a more distinct structure and hierarchy to their businesses.
 
Epic may well show up tooting their tools and showing a demo - that's what they did at PS4's reveal. They may also have an XBi exclusive.

Yeah I was thinking about the latter since Epic showed the UE4 at the GDC already and given the focus of the conference.
If Epic is not making an Xbox exclusive then they might really be leaving game development.
 
Didn't Tencent buy a huge chunk of Epic? I wondered how that could change the course of the business. No matter how successful Gears was, I imagine the engine licensing business is way, way more lucrative. But they still have subsidiaries like Chair and People Can Fly producing games. I would suspect something more akin to a reorganization than the idea that they'll completely stop making games. Like maybe the internal development team will be "spun off" in a fashion to operate more like one of the satellite teams. It could be as simple as an attempt to avoid future Silicon Knights lawsuit situations by avoiding even the appearance of impropriety.
 
I can think of two reasons for dividing the company up into an engine provider, Epic, and a game studio, People Can Fly:
1. Risk management. Developing games is a lot more hit and miss than providing engines+tools.
2. Conflict of interest. When Epic develop and release games, they also compete with their own engine-license customers.

Cheers
 
I'd imagine that the licensing business is a lot more profitable and a lot less risky than developing games. I think this gen is going to kill off a lot more developers, publishers and we'll see a huge change in the scope of games that are released.
 
Tech-only didn't work out so great for Lithtech and Gamebryo. The game is the mother of invention so I would think an engine company would not innovate well.
Yes, I wonder how are they going to keep up if they become a tech company only, when you should create games to test, thus still having up-to-date technology.

Aside from that, it was original how UE3 looked on the 360 when playing the first GeoW -to me it is still the best of the franchise-, but UE3 became rather stale afterwards.

Games looked cloned and unappealing to me. Besides that, Epic games have been anything but awe-inspiring tbh.

Last I heard is that Epic was interested in shortening development time when jumping from UE3 to UE4.
 
Yes, I wonder how are they going to keep up if they become a tech company only, when you should create games to test, thus still having up-to-date technology.

Aside from that, it was original how UE3 looked on the 360 when playing the first GeoW -to me it is still the best of the franchise-, but UE3 became rather stale afterwards.

Games looked cloned and unappealing to me. Besides that, Epic games have been anything but awe-inspiring tbh.

Last I heard is that Epic was interested in shortening development time when jumping from UE3 to UE4.

Why do you need to create $60 games to test tech? I'm sure that internally they would still be making tech demos and games to make sure their tools and workflow are ok.
 
Why do you need to create $60 games to test tech? I'm sure that internally they would still be making tech demos and games to make sure their tools and workflow are ok.
I believe that if you want to know a machine or machines well, you have to create games, not engines.

There are far great engines that can compete with Unreal out there, and their popularity is increasing, especially in Asia.

http://androidtalkative.blogspot.com.es/2012/11/despite-cryengine-popularity-crytek.html

After having played quite a few UE3 games and CryEngine powered games, if I had to choose I'd go with CryEngine too.

Do Epic know how to program a game.. without making an engine?
 
I believe that if you want to know a machine or machines well, you have to create games, not engines.

There are far great engines that can compete with Unreal out there, and their popularity is increasing, especially in Asia.

http://androidtalkative.blogspot.com.es/2012/11/despite-cryengine-popularity-crytek.html

After having played quite a few UE3 games and CryEngine powered games, if I had to choose I'd go with CryEngine too.

Do Epic know how to program a game.. without making an engine?


I'm sure they would build games, or pieces of games. They can build playable levels and tech demos for a fraction of what it would cost them to build a retail product, and it would probably be just as beneficial in terms of tech and optimization.
 
I believe that if you want to know a machine or machines well, you have to create games
Quite the contrary. A good engine has to be flexible, but if you're making a game then you will naturally favour development choices for your engine that supports that game. If you are developing an FPS, you will make optimisations for requirements very different to a high speed space racer, an open-world RPG, a side-scrolling adventure game and an isometric MMO shooter which licensees are wanting. If you have a game that uses dumb grunts, you're not going to invest as much effort developing open world simulation and your game would have no means to test that simulation if you were to include it.

A good engine has a load of users that provide feedback to the engine developers in the form of wishlists. A good engine developer will spend their man hours creating test cases and solutions instead of numerous art assets and cut-scenes. They can develop single levels of a racer, an FPS, a cutesy adventure game, etc. and test each game type. Most developers don't want to get to know the hardware either, hence the reliance on middleware, whereas engine developers can get to know the hardware intimately as that's their whole purpose. Sony's ATG for example doesn't make games, but just researches technology for other people to use.

An engine developer who makes games is also in competition with its licensees which is a conflict of interests. You know that if there are issues with two different aspects of the engine, the engine developers will prioritise the issue that affects their game over anyone else's game

The reasons for going engine only, or certainly branching off games development to a new company, are much stronger than the reasons for not (which basically boil down to 'we can't be bothered to' ;)). That's not to say Epic will do that, but it certainly isn't preferably to the Unreal Engine as a tool for everyone for the engine developers to make games themselves with it.
 
There are advantages and disadvantages to simultaneously developing games and developing and marketing a game engine to be used by other developers.

Without a game to showcase Unreal Engine, it's unlikely that Epic would have ever gotten their foot into the engine development business. Even with a very impressive Unreal game release and user friendly level development tools, they couldn't really attract any developers away from id Software's engine. That was the major engine being licensed at the time. Heck, licensing an engine was a relatively new concept for most of the game industry at the time. Unreal Tournament started a small trickle of smaller devs trying it out. But it wasn't until UE2 (arguably until UE 2.5 in 2004 a full 6 years from UE first showing up) that it started to be taken seriously.

Of course, a major disadvantage is that it can also make the focus for your engine too narrow. In the case of id versus Epic in engine licensing that's what opened the door. Id's engine was very good in enclosed spaces, but not terribly good for large open expanses. That was a strength of the Unreal Engine, along with a far more impressive skybox (at the time). If your spend so much time tailoring your engine to whatever game you are developing, it can limit the potential application of the game.

I think we saw some of that during the Gears of War development period.

Going forward, there aren't as many advantages for Epic in simultaneously developing a game. They are the 500 pound gorilla in the room now. They are basically the industry standard engine for licensing. They don't need to release a game to showcase their engine. To prove that it can run a AAA title. Everyone knows it can. Everyone knows they are also development friendly with tools, support, etc.

For someone like Crytek, however. They are going up against that 500 pound gorilla. And unless Epic falters hard, it's going to be an uphill battle. They HAVE to release games or risk their engine falling out of the public's and potentially developer's eye.

Engine development is only less risky for Epic (and perhaps DICE since EA is using it for almost all internal development teams now) than game development. For most other's the risk is still large, although the Unity engine is proving pretty popular for Kickstarter projects.

Regards,
SB
 
I agree with Silent_Buddha that the game was beneficial to establishing Epic's engine, but that job has been done now. And you can always commission another studios to make the game on your engine. In essence we're looking at an engine lifecycle, where its origins are a developer wanting to do something other people tools don't allow them to do, so they develop their own engine, and then game, and then get interest in their engine. They provide it and get complaints about lack of support and features, start spending more time getting the engine up to speed, and find they're more an engine developer now than game developer.

In discussions about Naughty Dog, we've had a dev or three on this board tell us, when someone's suggests ND license their engine, that it's not a good thing to try to do unless you're really serious about it. ND have the showcase and the tools, but supporting other developers in using their engine is a load more work.

If it were me, I'd found Epic game and Engine companies, if there's anyone at the company desperate to make games still. Perhaps Epic Games and Unreal Technology Inc. But the Epic Games subsidiary would just be a licensee like any other.
 
There are advantages and disadvantages to simultaneously developing games and developing and marketing a game engine to be used by other developers.

Without a game to showcase Unreal Engine, it's unlikely that Epic would have ever gotten their foot into the engine development business. Even with a very impressive Unreal game release and user friendly level development tools, they couldn't really attract any developers away from id Software's engine. That was the major engine being licensed at the time. Heck, licensing an engine was a relatively new concept for most of the game industry at the time. Unreal Tournament started a small trickle of smaller devs trying it out. But it wasn't until UE2 (arguably until UE 2.5 in 2004 a full 6 years from UE first showing up) that it started to be taken seriously.

Of course, a major disadvantage is that it can also make the focus for your engine too narrow. In the case of id versus Epic in engine licensing that's what opened the door. Id's engine was very good in enclosed spaces, but not terribly good for large open expanses. That was a strength of the Unreal Engine, along with a far more impressive skybox (at the time). If your spend so much time tailoring your engine to whatever game you are developing, it can limit the potential application of the game.

I think we saw some of that during the Gears of War development period.

Going forward, there aren't as many advantages for Epic in simultaneously developing a game. They are the 500 pound gorilla in the room now. They are basically the industry standard engine for licensing. They don't need to release a game to showcase their engine. To prove that it can run a AAA title. Everyone knows it can. Everyone knows they are also development friendly with tools, support, etc.

For someone like Crytek, however. They are going up against that 500 pound gorilla. And unless Epic falters hard, it's going to be an uphill battle. They HAVE to release games or risk their engine falling out of the public's and potentially developer's eye.

Engine development is only less risky for Epic (and perhaps DICE since EA is using it for almost all internal development teams now) than game development. For most other's the risk is still large, although the Unity engine is proving pretty popular for Kickstarter projects.

Regards,
SB
Crytek to me still has a superior engine, despite not being as popular.

The thing is that Shifty's words make sense IF developers used engines to showcase the machine's capabilities, but it wasn't always the case.

I have always had a feeling that UE3 was very console unfriendly -PS3 and X360- because it showed better graphics in comparable PCs of the time, running at more frames per second, with more complex effects and way better AA solutions.

UE3 and the use of eDRAM was a big no no at the beginning of the generation.

How does this say anything about an engine taking full advantage of the capabilities of a console, focusing on its strengths and avoiding its weaknesses?

If you develop a super engine but don't create a game for a particular console, I don't know how your code and engine can be defined as optimized. I don't see the connection here.

If we take into account that Frostbite will be available for mobile phones and not for the WiiU, there is something wrong here if you ask me.

https://www.gameinformer.com/b/news...firms-mobile-version-of-frostbite-engine.aspx

In contrast with the CryEngine 3 which fully supports the WiiU, you get to see how Epic and other companies are totally wrong.

http://mynintendonews.com/2013/05/15/precursor-games-cryengine-3-fully-supports-wii-u/

Was it easy to get CryEngine3 running on Wii U?
Precursor Games: … it’s not hard at all. The CryEngine3 fully supports the Wii U

I don't play their games though, and anything with UE in it has to be a great, great game for me to buy it, otherwise it is really difficult to breach the seeming impenetrable wall of rejection in my mind.

The UE game I truly enjoyed is Geow 1, but other than that there are very exciting engines out there.
 
Quite the contrary. A good engine has to be flexible, but if you're making a game then you will naturally favour development choices for your engine that supports that game. If you are developing an FPS, you will make optimisations for requirements very different to a high speed space racer, an open-world RPG, a side-scrolling adventure game and an isometric MMO shooter which licensees are wanting. If you have a game that uses dumb grunts, you're not going to invest as much effort developing open world simulation and your game would have no means to test that simulation if you were to include it.

A good engine has a load of users that provide feedback to the engine developers in the form of wishlists. A good engine developer will spend their man hours creating test cases and solutions instead of numerous art assets and cut-scenes. They can develop single levels of a racer, an FPS, a cutesy adventure game, etc. and test each game type. Most developers don't want to get to know the hardware either, hence the reliance on middleware, whereas engine developers can get to know the hardware intimately as that's their whole purpose. Sony's ATG for example doesn't make games, but just researches technology for other people to use.

An engine developer who makes games is also in competition with its licensees which is a conflict of interests. You know that if there are issues with two different aspects of the engine, the engine developers will prioritise the issue that affects their game over anyone else's game

The reasons for going engine only, or certainly branching off games development to a new company, are much stronger than the reasons for not (which basically boil down to 'we can't be bothered to' ;)). That's not to say Epic will do that, but it certainly isn't preferably to the Unreal Engine as a tool for everyone for the engine developers to make games themselves with it.
Sure. Flexibility is a huge asset for an engine.

Even so, putting their focus on making an engine without a specific game in mind is bad (unless developers end goal is making an engine but not a true game - which of course is fine too, I just wouldn't expect a game showing the true potential of the machine).

You have to take into account that when you are making a game the basic architecture of your own game becomes an *engine*. That's not really bad at all, in fact, that's good!!

You end up with creating and having a game, AND a very gamely-specific engine.

But -there is always a but- when you try to create an engine you develop a game at the same time, you make a generic general-purpose "engine", or even in some cases what could be called a genre-specific engine...

What's more..., perhaps you can try to build a sub-genre specific engine, and then, bummer, you have a generic engine and you rarely end up with a good or fine game at the end of everything.

If developers focused on making games for the new videogame consoles coming out this year, they could polish and refine the skeleton architecture of those games and reuse that structure with a solid base for their next project as their *engine*. :)

Especially if the next game is similar enough.

Look at what Epic did with their crappy presentation on the PS4 -compared to the PC version-.

They focused on making an engine for their games, and now I can see them ending up rewriting everything anyway, or quitting the development of some features, when they find out they have a engine that makes cool tech demos but it is truly worthless for a real game.

To me it is clearly an issue of focus. Either you make a game or you make an engine. All the more so, it is about what you prefer. Is the focus on making the engine, or the game?

If you create an engine you usually write a bunch of stuff for the PS4 or Infinity or PC, etc, you don't need, and make the engine too generic to be of actual use.

More specifically for advanced developers who know their stuff and like to learn about the hardware.
 
Crytek to me still has a superior engine, despite not being as popular.

The thing is that Shifty's words make sense IF developers used engines to showcase the machine's capabilities, but it wasn't always the case.

I have always had a feeling that UE3 was very console unfriendly -PS3 and X360- because it showed better graphics in comparable PCs of the time, running at more frames per second, with more complex effects and way better AA solutions.

UE3 and the use of eDRAM was a big no no at the beginning of the generation.

How does this say anything about an engine taking full advantage of the capabilities of a console, focusing on its strengths and avoiding its weaknesses?

If you develop a super engine but don't create a game for a particular console, I don't know how your code and engine can be defined as optimized. I don't see the connection here.

That's actually a perfect example. If they weren't so focused on developing Gears of War, how much more polished might the engine have been for PS3 and X360 at the beginning of the generation. As we've heard, it was pretty rough for licensed devs at the beginning of the generation. It was much better after the 1st year (ps3) or 2nd year (x360).

Granted, all of their level designers and content producers wouldn't be much help with the Engine. But how much time was Tim Sweeney spending making sure the artists and level designers could do what they wanted in Gears versus making sure the Engine and tools were as robust as possible?

Something we'll never know. We do know it was very good at Gears of Wars things, but perhaps not as good when it came to what other developers wanted to do.

Then again, Gears of War certainly didn't hurt their marketing efforts with regards to UE3 and probably pulled in some more developers into licensing.

Going forward, do they have much to gain? Other than potential revenue and profits or losses in developing a game. They are guaranteed to make money on UE right now as it's the defacto AAA game development engine. CryEngine might technically be better, but that won't be enough to pull many devs away from UE at the moment. Developing a game, however, involves a potential risk of losing money.

And since they've already established themselves in a big way during the X360/PS3 gen, do they have much to gain with a game as an advertising avenue? EA is likely never going to use it unless they purchase a studio already developing with UE considering EA has 2 engine developers. Bethesda will likely be staying in house as well. And as said, the reputation of UE is already well established in the game development community.

Sure a game as an advertising avenue never hurts. Unless you sink a lot of money into development and the game underperforms and racks up significantly losses.

Regards,
SB
 
Sure. Flexibility is a huge asset for an engine.

Even so, putting their focus on making an engine without a specific game in mind is bad (unless developers end goal is making an engine...
Right. Epic can sell one game and a few licenses for similar games, or they can make a 'generic' engine (I think you miss the point of the engine in calling it generic as if that's a bad thing) and sell licenses to 50% of all games being made across 8 different platforms. Which makes the better business sense?
 
Right. Epic can sell one game and a few licenses for similar games, or they can make a 'generic' engine (I think you miss the point of the engine in calling it generic as if that's a bad thing) and sell licenses to 50% of all games being made across 8 different platforms. Which makes the better business sense?
Anything generic is bad in my eyes, Shifty.

Why I love Sophie Ellis Bextor more than other women? Just because I have a non generic attachment to her for some reason I can't explain.

To me UE is a very generic engine. It is competent with many technologies but it is not necessarily outstanding in any particular one.

In fact, UE3 on the X360 wasn't compatible with standard MSAA via eDRAM becasuse of how they processed the shadows, afaik.

That's not what I would call a console friendly engine, that's why I dislike it.
 
Anything generic is bad in my eyes, Shifty.
You misuse the word. An engine that is 'generic' by your definition is 'versatile' by any developer's.

To me UE is a very generic engine. It is competent with many technologies but it is not necessarily outstanding in any particular one.
Well that even shoots your own theory in the foot! UE was developed alongside games. If Gears and Shadow Complex weren't enough to save UE from being 'generic', why do you feel Epic need to continue making games to ensure UE4 doesn't remain generic, if it didn't save them this gen?

In fact, UE3 on the X360 wasn't compatible with standard MSAA via eDRAM becasuse of how they processed the shadows, afaik.
That's something an engine specialist will more likely solve than a team also juggling creating games. With complete focus on the engine, the engineers can look for platform specific optimisations and experiment with all the latest research, with no fear of commercial liabilities and deadlines. They can create whatever test cases they want instead of having to proof everything against their existing game. What if Gears was already saturating the system and there wasn't room to implement MSAA where other less demanding games on the same engine would benefit? If Epic weren't tied to creating Gears, they could have provided whatever AA solutions and left it to the game developers whether to include them or not.
 
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