Resistance 2

[Kittonwy]

Kittonwy, the sad thing is, R2 had gameplay that was condusive to stop and pop mechanics, and individuals like you ruined that during the private beta.

People wanted the accuracy differences when moving, stopped, and in cross hairs gone (which all together brought down the effectiveness of stop and pop). The wanted the game sped up, which further destroyed the ability to use stop and pop gameplay. They wanted no fall damage, more run and gun. They wanted grenades to have the Brett Farve effect again, tossing across half the screen.

Basically, all of the elements that were changed from the private beta (as requested by individuals like yourself) are what made the game what it is today. So you (and people like you) made your bed, now sleep in it.

Insomniac knew what they were doing in the private beta, and it was changed to cater to YOU, blame them, not Insomniac.

R2 maps were never conducive to stop-and-pop, want to see stop-and-pop maps? Check out SOCOM, Killzone 2, Call of Duty 4, where corridors are more narrow, corners and rooms are generally more confined.

If you're doing stop-and-pop, regular moving speed would have to be slow, running speed just a tad quicker than what we have now, zoomed-turning would be slow, cross-hair doesn't need to be gone, but the weapon damage has to be upped. Right now the weapon damage isn't high enough for stop-and-pop. Also the problem is the way the maps are designed which are more often than not open rather than confined, which also take away from the stop and pop, as such, stop and pop doesn't work well in the maps but hip-shooting doesn't work either, making run-and-gun much less effective and very range-limited, resulting in a MP experience that is neither here nor there. The controls/aiming/weapon-tuning is not consistent with the map design.

Other than the grenades, very little was changed from the beta, Insomniac didn't listen for the most part to the beta-testers, the majority of which were not satisfied with the gameplay (in a thread where a poll was taken more than half of the people preferred R1 over the beta which should NEVER happen), the build we got was merely dismissed as an old build, to this day there are people on myres (myself not included) who are still dissatisfied with how the game plays, enough of them that they have a 15 page thread dedicated to just complaints.

I know you went to Insomniac and somehow feels they're now your friends but I've never been in a beta that was supposed to go smoothly to build hype where there was so much backlash.

To fix things without touching the maps one would have to change the way the reticle works for medium range weapons such as the carbine and the bullseye, making hip-shooting effective again at medium range and it would be a significant change that they would be unwilling to make. Right now I doubt it's enough to just tweak things and somehow the game would feel right.

Insomniac made the game, they're the ones who are in charge of balancing the gameplay, ultimately they are responsible for how well or not R2 plays. Personally I want the gameplay fixed so I can put my copy of R2 in and enjoy some MP competitive, and convince some of my clan mates to actually join in, because right now most of them don't want to.

 

[Kittonwy]

Everyone should feel free to voicing their opinion about a game. It is up to Insomniac to decide what they want to do with that opinion. And honestly I can see them change the game again. Whether that is a change in the direction of Rfom, or more towards how it was during the beta, or fine tuning what they have now. And whatever they change, it will never be, or ever was, the best possible game for everyone. So I guess we can look forward to continue debating this issue for a while. Even though we already know we'll never agree, which is okay of course.

I think the problem is that when you have a franchise, you're supposed to build on strong fan support, OF COURSE changes are going to be made, I think we all expected that, but never before have I seen changes that would result in gameplay that would piss off so many fans of the original. People wanted improvements, not just changes that didn't make the gameplay better, but instead made it more awkward.

I don't think people wanted a game that would please everyone, I think people just wanted a better game than what Insomniac put out. They ignored for the most part feedback from the beta and somehow tried to dismiss those who spoke out during the beta process when in one of the podcasts Brian hinted at how it's too bad the old fans didn't like some of the beta gameplay but they got new fans now so they no longer needed the old R1 fans who were unhappy.

Customer feedback is very important in ANY business, more often than not people will just walk away without saying a word and you would have zero idea what made them walk away and resulting in losing any future business from them.

 

[patsu]

An auger with shield is a nightmare for attackers in Core Control.
It's also one of the safest guns out there. Can take on pretty much anything 1-on-1.
I find it not so pleasing for many-on-1 or 1-on-many. But its shield is always useful.

Yeah... I use grenade and shield for 1-on-many fight. I am experimenting with the ammo perk. It seems that I can get grenade out of it ? How do I get more grenades in R2 competitive in general ?

EDIT: Also does Chimera automatically sees enemies behind obstacles if I wield an Auger (without the rage perk). I find that sometimes I can see the blocked enemies, sometimes I can't. How about human ?

Messaging should be back, at least they should provide a tab for recently played for checking stats and sending messages (even using OS dialogs). I can live with reading messages from XMB.

Yes, text chat should be back in ! Unless they want to count on Home integration (doubtful).

That said what I really like about the new UI is that you don't have to wait for the MP interface. All three modes launch from same interface.
The party system is also better in the way you can join parties any time you want and talk to the guys playing and letting them know. Party permission system is also welcome in getting rid of invite problems of the original. Squad limitation sucks though. I really really miss old squad channels.

While the current party system is a little buggy, overall I like the interface much better.

I wish it allows me to stay in one of the modes and keep playing more though. Right now, the system will send me back to the main menu and I have to keep tapping to the competitive option to start another game. In the old R1 menu, it will simply find the next game automatically which is very convenient.

That, and I still don't know how to accept invitations.

Kittonwy, the sad thing is, R2 had gameplay that was condusive to stop and pop mechanics, and individuals like you ruined that during the private beta.

People wanted the accuracy differences when moving, stopped, and in cross hairs gone (which all together brought down the effectiveness of stop and pop). The wanted the game sped up, which further destroyed the ability to use stop and pop gameplay. They wanted no fall damage, more run and gun. They wanted grenades to have the Brett Farve effect again, tossing across half the screen.

Basically, all of the elements that were changed from the private beta (as requested by individuals like yourself) are what made the game what it is today. So you (and people like you) made your bed, now sleep in it.

Insomniac knew what they were doing in the private beta, and it was changed to cater to YOU, blame them, not Insomniac.

Bah ! The R2 game right now is way way better than the closed beta, and better than the launch version.

The closed beta was unplayable near the beginning. I couldn't see the bullet path (e.g., sniper shot), could't see any grenade at all until I was killed by one. The San Francisco level was too dark or too glaring (depending on which direction I looked), the weapons were unbalanced.

It improved greatly over time.

I have never seen anyone play R2 closed or open beta in stop-n-pop fashion, granted I didn't play many. Wouldn't they die easily with increased grenade range and weapons like Bellock, Auger, and Fareye.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

R2 maps were never conducive to stop-and-pop, want to see stop-and-pop maps? Check out SOCOM, Killzone 2, Call of Duty 4, where corridors are more narrow, corners and rooms are generally more confined.
.

More narrow and confined areas are not supporting stop and pop maps. Stop and pop barely ever works vs a skilled player in any shooting game, but in close confined areas it certainly at its worse.

Over large distances stop and pop can work, in confined areas (short distances) its a 100% surefire way to die vs any skilled player in any shooting game.

 

[patsu]

I would be curious to see a 60 player stop-n-pop game. ^_^

EDIT: In Skirmish, we need to cover a good distance to our next objective. In Core Control, we need to run like mad.

EDIT 2: Kittonwy, I wouldn't worry about Socom vs R2. The latter has the best netcode I have ever seen. "Zero" lag regardless of how many players and computer enemies on screen. Socom has its own appeal as well.

 

[betan]

Yeah... I use grenade and shield for 1-on-many fight. I am experimenting with the ammo perk. It seems that I can get grenade out of it ? How do I get more grenades in R2 competitive in general ?

You pick up others' unused grenades from their ammo boxes. You normally get your own type of grenade even when dead guy has some different one. You can carry max of 2.
If you use proto ammo (or pick a proto ammo pack) from someone else you get all ammo you can carry for both weapons plus all types of grenades (One of each of the other two types). Proto ammo is a beast if you are a survivor. Otherwise berserk meter goes to 0 when you die unlike most other berserks. Pretty useless for sniping too.

EDIT: Also does Chimera automatically sees enemies behind obstacles if I wield an Auger (without the rage perk). I find that sometimes I can see the blocked enemies, sometimes I can't. How about human ?

No difference between human and chimera. You need to use L1 (zoom/aim/ironsight) to see behind the walls.

I wish it allows me to stay in one of the modes and keep playing more though. Right now, the system will send me back to the main menu and I have to keep tapping to the competitive option to start another game. In the old R1 menu, it will simply find the next game automatically which is very convenient.

Yep, I forgot about that. They need to bring searching from scoreboard back as well. It was really annoying initially but I got used to it since menus are pretty fast.

That, and I still don't know how to accept invitations.

Sent you a PSN message which made me notice it's indeed confusing.

Bah ! The R2 game right now is way way better than the closed beta, and better than the launch version.

I dont think they've changed any gameplay since the launch. There was a first minute patch of course, but that doesn't count.

The closed beta was unplayable near the beginning. I couldn't see the bullet path (e.g., sniper shot), could't see any grenade at all until I was killed by one.

Grenade issue still happens sometimes because of the lag. Despite the great netcode not everyone has enough bandwidth. That is more evident with split screeners and sometimes playing with people from other continents.

I have never seen anyone play R2 closed or open beta in stop-n-pop fashion, granted I didn't play many. Wouldn't they die easily with increased grenade range and weapons like Bellock, Auger, and Fareye.

If you are smart, there is no stopping in R2. Autoaim and hit detection for all weapons depend on target's moving speed.

 

[Cornsnake]

If someone uses the chimeran rage berserk in your team, every teammember close to that player will be able to see through walls. The same goes for the advansed radar berserk.

Invites are in the party options menu if I recall correctly.

 

[tha_con]

I think the problem is that when you have a franchise, you're supposed to build on strong fan support, OF COURSE changes are going to be made, I think we all expected that, but never before have I seen changes that would result in gameplay that would piss off so many fans of the original. People wanted improvements, not just changes that didn't make the gameplay better, but instead made it more awkward.

I don't think people wanted a game that would please everyone, I think people just wanted a better game than what Insomniac put out. They ignored for the most part feedback from the beta and somehow tried to dismiss those who spoke out during the beta process when in one of the podcasts Brian hinted at how it's too bad the old fans didn't like some of the beta gameplay but they got new fans now so they no longer needed the old R1 fans who were unhappy.

Customer feedback is very important in ANY business, more often than not people will just walk away without saying a word and you would have zero idea what made them walk away and resulting in losing any future business from them.

They ignored feedback? What the hell game were you playing?

Big changes from beta to final code:

Speed
Grenade throwing distance
Marksman reciol and ammo count
Open crosshairs (when moving)
Fall Damage
Splicer added to MP
aiming speed when in ironsights turned up
weapon accuracy when not in ironsights

That was from all the crycing that you guy's did, saying it wasn't R1.

Insomniac took mechanics from R1, and force fed them into R2. You and other folks like you made these problems with the mixed gameplay. I think it's high time you come to realize this.

R2 was considerably better during the Private beta (patsu, the problems you had were all bugs, not mechanics issues or gameplay designs).

Also, stop and pop is specifically designed for open maps. If you're CLOSE to someone you DO NOT AIM, you SPRAY because you are close enough that your accuracy doesn't really matter. I know it may seem crazy, but you tell me how you think this would pan out:

You're in a building clearing it out, and someone jumps out in the hallway. Are you going to aim at them, or just spray at them?

Here's a hint: I'm in the United States Army, we do Urban Ops training multiple times a year. You are trained to fire from the hip, there is no aiming, no ironsights.

Now, that may be apples to oranges, as "real life" isn't always applicable to videogames, however, basics of game design still play here. The "cone of accuracy" is still small enough in close quarters (you know, those narrow halls you talk about) that you don't have to aim.

I played a TON of CoD4, and *every time* you die at close range in a hallway, you can watch the killcam, they didn't use Ironsights. Because you SHOULDN'T. The stopping and aiming is there specifically to increase accuracy over long distances while slowly moving. Not while bum rushing halls or alleys.

I hate to say it man, but you are way off track here. R2 was fantastic during hte beta, the changes Insomniac made were for the community, if you're not happy with it, blame them and you not Insomniac. The mechanics in place before worked wonderfully for the type of game they had created.

I know you went to Insomniac and somehow feels they're now your friends but I've never been in a beta that was supposed to go smoothly to build hype where there was so much backlash.

I'm sorry, maybe you've forgotten who I am and why I was perma'banned from GAF. I have been an Insomniac "fanboy" long before I made the trip, long before I began posting on NeoGAF. Do you not remember my long drawn out 'scuffle' with Shawn Elliot ref: his opinion on R1? Or the hundreds of posts I made prior to any "personal" involvement with Insomniac Games during the Ratchet and Clank unvieling? Dude, I was THE "Bungie Fan" for Insomnaic Games. Long before I Won (by chance) a trip to visit their Studio. Why you have to even bring that up is beyond me, as it has absolutely no bearing or influence on what I think.

 

[patsu]

You pick up others' unused grenades from their ammo boxes. You normally get your own type of grenade even when dead guy has some different one. You can carry max of 2.
If you use proto ammo (or pick a proto ammo pack) from someone else you get all ammo you can carry for both weapons plus all types of grenades (One of each of the other two types). Proto ammo is a beast if you are a survivor. Otherwise berserk meter goes to 0 when you die unlike most other berserks. Pretty useless for sniping too.

Yes, I have changed my perk to invisibility. Much more useful for Core Control and Skirmish.

No difference between human and chimera. You need to use L1 (zoom/aim/ironsight) to see behind the walls.

If someone uses the chimeran rage berserk in your team, every teammember close to that player will be able to see through walls. The same goes for the advansed radar berserk.

Yes, press L1 to activate Auger's X-ray vision. That's the one I was looking for. The Chimeran Rage berserk allows team members to see through wall, but it's not very effective since they can't shoot through obstacles.

Yep, I forgot about that. They need to bring searching from scoreboard back as well. It was really annoying initially but I got used to it since menus are pretty fast.

Sent you a PSN message which made me notice it's indeed confusing.

Invites are in the party options menu if I recall correctly.

Yap ! The confusing part is the "Invitation" option looks like a header, not something I could click on.

I dont think they've changed any gameplay since the launch. There was a first minute patch of course, but that doesn't count.

I believe day 1 patch was 1.10. There was a 1.20 patch. Something felt different since 1.1. Perhaps some net bugs were fixed ? I could barely get any kills earlier on. Now it's still not as "precise" as R1, but it feels better.

Grenade issue still happens sometimes because of the lag. Despite the great netcode not everyone has enough bandwidth. That is more evident with split screeners and sometimes playing with people from other continents.

True ! But they hide the lag oh so well.

If you are smart, there is no stopping in R2. Autoaim and hit detection for all weapons depend on target's moving speed.

That's right. It's not worth it to stop-n-pop in R2. The new FarEye seems to reload faster. It's a wonderful weapon ! Carbine and Bulleye felt gimped from R1 in competitive play.

 

[tha_con]

That's right. It's not worth it to stop-n-pop in R2. The new FarEye seems to reload faster. It's a wonderful weapon ! Carbine and Bulleye felt gimped from R1 in competitive play.

It was worth it during the private beta, when accuracy was greatly increased when in Ironsights. However, people complained that they wanted that kind of accuracy "all the time" and absolutely destroyed the purpose of ironsights completely.

The private beta was very very great when it came to stop and pop (which is suited for open maps like Orick and parts of Chicago).

I really wish Insomniac would have stuck to their guns, but oh well. R1 accuracy was far too accurate, and the Bullseye was bullsh---you get the idea. Tagging someone from huge distances was absolutely ridiculous, and I'm so glad they toned down the tag accuracy and limited the count.

Also, you have to remember that there is a loadout system in this game, so making the Carbine what it was in R1 would remove almost all incentive to try out other weapons. The Carbine was the 'all purpose weapon" in R1, but for balance, if you're going to give everyone access to all weapons at all times, you need to tune and balance. I think the Carbine is fine where it is, for the type of game R2 is. If this Carbine were in R1, it wouldn't work, and if the Carbine from R1 was in R2, it wouldn't work, the balance would be blown off the charts.

 

[betan]

Yes, I have changed my perk to invisibility. Much more useful for Core Control and Skirmish.

Invisibility is great for some easy sniping as well.
I don't know if you have it yet, but Ring of Life is a damn good berserk when playing against normal players for all three modes. Not many people knows how to take down a guy in ring and most of the time all you have to do is avoiding grenades and dancing around.

I believe day 1 patch was 1.10. There was a 1.20 patch. Something felt different since 1.1. Perhaps some net bugs were fixed ? I could barely get any kills earlier on. Now it's still not as "precise" as R1, but it feels better.

What you experienced early on might have been related to the stress on the servers as well.

True ! But they hide the lag oh so well.

Indeed, which is what makes the game shine above others.

That's right. It's not worth it to stop-n-pop in R2. The new FarEye seems to reload faster. It's a wonderful weapon ! Carbine and Bulleye felt gimped from R1 in competitive play.

Bullseye tagging is gimped but the actually shooting is more accurate than what was in R1.
It's still my favorite weapon in R2 though.
Carbine however is by far the best assault weapon in Core Control.

 

[patsu]

stop-n-pop in R2

It's inevitable. R1 players will instinctively run and gun. If the run speed is slow, they will file it as a bug without question. If the weapons behave "worse" than in R1, they will complain. This is because during closed beta, quite a few areas needed polish. All the intended differences and real issues got jumbled together into one big blob.

New players may try to stop-n-pop, but with so many people running around I don't think it will be effective. People will spawn near your location, or run into you rather frequently. In the end, it would be like how a FarEye user plays R2 now but without one/two hit kills.



betan, I am surprised you find BullsEye more accurate in R2. I need to "spray fire" to kill faster (against a Carbine enemy).

 

[tha_con]

It's inevitable. R1 players will instinctively run and gun. If the run speed is slow, they will file it as a bug without question. If the weapons behave "worse" than in R1, they will complain. This is because during closed beta, quite a few areas needed polish. All the intended differences and real issues got jumbled together into one big blob.

New players may try to stop-n-pop, but with so many people running around I don't think it will be effective. People will spawn near your location, or run into you rather frequently. In the end, it would like how a FarEye user plays R2 now but without one/two hit kills.



betan, I am surprised you find BullsEye more accurate in R2. I need to "spray fire" to kill faster (against a Carbine enemy).

Stop-n-pop is about long range battle. You still run and gun when you are within close range. Watch each and every person who is good at KZ2 or CoD4 (which are both fairly big stop and pop games). You never bring up your ironsights when you're in close range, you aim-n-spray.

Thing is, people complained and now neither is effective. The way it was during the closed beta was perfect, but the complainers ruined it. I honestly place a lot of the blame on Insomniac for giving in, because that's not the type of stuff you tune during a beta. You tune things like weapon balance, spawn points, and fix glitches / problems.


That's neither here nor there, the game is the way it is now because of the 'fans' who changed the game, and will likely leave, while the rest of us will stick around and play it for quite some time, even though they abandoned us. It just means I have to wait until those jackholes move on to another game to start preaching to Insomniac to change it back.

 

[betan]

betan, I am surprised you find BullsEye more accurate in R2. I need to "spray fire" to kill faster (against a Carbine enemy).

Bullseye in ironsight view has little bullet spread though. Without ironsight it sprays similar to R1 Bullseye, but even less accurate of course.

I feel like the new Bullseye is all about managing bullet lag more than anything else, when you are not tagging that is.

 

[patsu]

Stop-n-pop is about long range battle. You still run and gun when you are within close range. Watch each and every person who is good at KZ2 or CoD4 (which are both fairly big stop and pop games). You never bring up your ironsights when you're in close range, you aim-n-spray.

Thing is, people complained and now neither is effective. The way it was during the closed beta was perfect, but the complainers ruined it. I honestly place a lot of the blame on Insomniac for giving in, because that's not the type of stuff you tune during a beta. You tune things like weapon balance, spawn points, and fix glitches / problems.


That's neither here nor there, the game is the way it is now because of the 'fans' who changed the game, and will likely leave, while the rest of us will stick around and play it for quite some time, even though they abandoned us. It just means I have to wait until those jackholes move on to another game to start preaching to Insomniac to change it back.

That's an interesting take. I think R2 gameplay is heavily weapon-driven. The strategy changes based on the gun one wields. e.g., In general, I'd go stop-n-pop using FarEye, hide-n-seek using Auger, run-n-gun using everything else.

I am experimenting with IronSight now (Only level 14 here). For Auger, I use it frequently (because it allows me to see hidden enemies). For Carbine, it seems to improve headshot even for close combat. I am not entirely sure yet. For BullsEye I need to spray a tad more than in R1 to get a faster kill. Haven't tried tagging in BullsEye coz I can't see where the tag is at this moment.

I feel like the new Bullseye is all about managing bullet lag more than anything else, when you are not tagging that is.

You mean anticipate enemy's next position and fire at that spot before he strafes into position ?

 

[RenegadeRocks]

Finally played R2 today ! I found the graphics amazing and the gameplay intriguing ! The Campaign (I have just reached Orick) is much better than R1 !!!!
Well, whats more to say ! I am enjoying it !

 

[RenegadeRocks]

Hmmm......reached Bryce Cannon..........though the graphics are super cool in Idaho, but the gameplay has started to fail now, maybe I am judging it too early, maybe there's a lot to ply still!

The first time the grims came in, it felt awesome, and I am loving the chamaeleon too, creates a creepy atmosphere. Its just that in R1, every scenario was built around replayability and experimentation till you find a way to tackle it. In R2, I am hardly dying and before I can even understand from where to shoot and try another weapon or something, the encounter is already over(mostly)!
Also, R1 felt heavily gametested, and if you played well you would find the health packs and ammo automatically at the right place. It felt as if Insomniac had play tested every situation to such a level that they found out the paths a player would take in a situation and placed health packs and ammo at exactly those paths.

In R2, sometimes I complete an encounter with a different gun, only to realise later thet the gun for the particular situation was lying just in front of the enemy.

People say R1 was rushed as it was a launch title and Insomniac said that they completed the whole gameplay of R2 first and then added graphical effects, but R1 seems more polished gameplay wise to me.
Maybe, I am still too early in the game, but that is what I am feeling now, after the very good level of Orick , Iceland and SRPA centre. Those three felt nice, but after that something went wrong. Lets hope it betters out later, co I am playing tonight !

 

[tha_con]

R1 was just as linear as R2, the difference was that you could carry every weapon you got, so you had more options to 'mix it up'. The 2 weapon system certainly takes that away, but at the same time it offers you the ability to actually use that weapon.

In R1, I found myself saving a lot of ammo and only using the carbine / bullseye for nearly every situation, and I used many many more weapons in R2, but the general layout is different. The only problem I had with it was that some weapons appear too much, while others are available too little (pules cannong, splicer, and bellock come to mind).

There is work to be done, and some things could be changed, but I think most people find the game to be too different from R1 and interpret that as gameplay flaws and / or poor design (don't get me wrong, there is some poor design ideas, but they aren't so much flawed as they are under-developed).

 

[RenegadeRocks]

Don't get me wrong ! Read my post just above the "complaint" post, that was my reaction until I reached around the mid of Idaho, from there on, it was boring, but then its all subjective
I am just hoping it improves again !

R1 wasn't nonlinear, just that if you played it well, it felt as if it was designed very well !
Idaho encounters fail a little in that regard. The grim making an entry felt great, but after that it tapered off.

Well, writing this post made me realise that it was only Idaho that dissappointed!
I mean, thrice it happened that I cleared up an area only to realise later that the weapon for the situation was placed somewhere else !

 

[tha_con]

I will agree that weapon placement was bad in some areas like Idaho, but that was the only area that I remember where weapon placement was that bad (like in front of the diner where you see the bellock by a truck, but have no clue it's there becuase you're taking on a crap ton of auger fire).

Things could be better in areas, but all games are like that. I think it was more a result of the first title having so much that seemed to fall into place that it makes R2 feel under-developed in some areas.