Yuzu NSW emultor legally terminated by Nintendo *spawn

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0:01:30 News 01: Nintendo forces Yuzu, Citra shutdown
Nintendo were vigilant.


The Yuzu devs settled to avoid discovery. They were going to get fucked with multiple infringements for making roms and distributing them between the Yuzu devs, often pre-release of the game. They allegedly had a rom stash on their discord too. Nintendo ninjas were inside the discord, watching. Now all the Yuzu devs have turned over all electronic devices, websites, logs... Oh and Yuzu was running telemetry in the background collecting "anonymous" data. Our heroes, everyone.

Also Suyu seems legal, they allegedly use a different code. Time will tell.



This one says, Suyu is unstoppable.

 
Emulators are legal, so long as they aren't made with copyright infringing methods. Yuzu was closed because they were engaged with piracy, not emulation. Think of a criminal gang arrested for using power tools to dig under a bank and those power tools presented as an exhibit in their trial, and then someone else using those same brand power tools to build an orphanage for kittens. Nothing wrong with the power tools.
 
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Emulators are legal, so long as they aren't made with copyright infringing methods. Yuzu was closed because they were engaged with piracy, not emulation. Think of a criminal gang arrested for using power tools to dig under a bank and those power tools presented as an exhibit in their trial, and then someone else using those same brand power tools to build an orphanage for kittens. Nothing wrong with the power tools.
This isn't just some store bought code, it's more like if a criminal gang built their own power tools specifically designed to dig under a very specific bank. I'm pretty sure you could determine those tools to be illegal, having been devised with the intent to do something illegal. And now that these tools were ordered destroyed, some other group using the same blueprint to essentially make the same tools wont be off the hook just cuz they painted it a different color.

Not a legal expert, but it seems that with Yuzu being ordered to be destroyed, Nintendo will be under the assumption that any use of Yuzu source code by anybody else will also be illegal.
 
What is the emulator doing that's illegal? Have they stolen Nintendo code or are using copyrighted material (like firmwares embedded in the emulator)?
The agreement, by court supervision, is that Yuzu(and Cintra) must be destroyed. I dont see how Yuzu, in any form, can live on. What would even be the point of Nintendo demanding this if just anybody else could take all the same source code and rename it and keep using it? Would have been pretty much a waste of time.

Nintendo's entire intentions here were not some 'oh ok, we're ok with the emulation, but you guys were going about it wrong, nice try, but not today!', no, Nintendo saw an opportunity to put the kibosh on Yuzu completely. You think Nintendo are so short sighted that they went through all this if it's not actually gonna actually stop Yuzu?

I dont think it matters whether the emulator alone is legal if it's been ordered in a court to be destroyed completely. It's not quite the same thing, but when John Carmack was sued by Bethesda for using code he wrote while working under Bethesda at Oculus, it didn't matter what that code actually was. Had Bethesda pressed the matter, they could have gone after that code, but in their case, they were happy to take a massive settlement($250m) instead. $2.4m for Nintendo is peanuts, so their real intention here was clearly to go after the code and stop the emulator, not just get some payout.
 
Also, I think the 'Why doesn't Nintendo just put their games on PC?' aspect still shows a misunderstanding of the console model. Nintendo does not want people to just buy the odd game on Steam or something. When somebody buys a Switch, that person will likely justify that purchase by buying multiple games, even 3rd party games of which Nintendo also takes a significant cut from. Selling a game on Steam, of which they also have to giveaway a large cut, is simply not fitting with how the traditional console model works.

And yea, we can point to Sony and Microsoft today and say that's an outdated notion, but I also imagine Nintendo isn't spending $300,000,000 to make a single game, nor are they desperate on margins or have some need to expand the market beyond their 100,000,000+ install base to be decently profitable. Nintendo are still making that traditional console model work for them to great effect, and so they've got no motivation to put their games on any other platform.

Finally, I really think we've gotta stop playing dumb when it comes to emulation - 99% of people who use emulators for any kind of 'otherwise available on modern platforms' games are doing so because they see an opportunity to play a game without having to pay for it and know they can get away with it above all else. Even if you think game preservation is important, it's not why people actually use emulators. Just annoyed at so many people trying to press on how 'noble' emulation is, when we all freaking know what the deal is in reality. I'm not anti-emulation either, I just think we need to be more honest about this in discussions.
 
The agreement, by court supervision, is that Yuzu(and Cintra) must be destroyed.

That does not mean that the source code - under the license of the GPL - is now illegal, you're hypothesizing at what the settlement means instead of understanding it. There's a massive difference between a settlement agreement with 2 private parties and the staggering legal precedence from actual winning a court case that ultimately results in non-proprietary, open source code being classified as illegal because a company doesn't like that it mimics their hardware.

Again, explain what legal recourse Nintendo can do with source code that does not contain any Nintendo IP? Why are these Yuzu forks being hosted on Github, and Nintendo has not immediately sent DCMA notices to Microsoft, like they would in a split second if there was an ISO repository hosted on their same servers? Why has this open source code existed for years without being DCMA'd?

Nintendo has no control over the source code. What they have control over is the specific branding, and the developers behind the company that was Yuzu, because those developers signed a settlement as part of their legal agreement. Yuzu, as a name and a company, is dead, yes. The open source code was not really the focus of the case, however - while Nintendo may want that to be the case, they went after the Yuzu team specifically for a reason. Largely, it was how that code was promoted by the Yuzu developers. Nintendo argued that there was sufficient evidence that the Yuzu team had benefited financially and explicitly designed their company around facilitating the theft of actual Nintendo IP - the games - and they had evidence indicating that intent, such as servers with game ISO's and the Yuzu website giving instructions of how to break Nintendo's encryption. It was the culmination of all these factors, and hell Nintendo wouldn't have had to even prove the 'implications' of all that, when they could nail the devs for literally distributing the cracked ISO's themselves! As such, two private entities have now entered into an agreement that results in the Yuzu team voluntary removing all of their hosted projects and agreeing to cease further development on those projects.

The scope of what you're arguing for however, is absolutely gargantuan in comparison as to what actually happened. Nintendo can try and argue in court to give them the authority for what power you think they have in the future yes, but just as there's a reason Yuzu developers settled so quickly, there's also a reason Nintendo accepted that deal with a relatively paltry fraction of the damages they felt they were owed. Nintendo can't get forks of the source code forcibly removed because Yuzu themselves don't own it! All they can do is abide by the settlement agreement and remove their own promotion of it, but once it's in the open source community, there is no single owner with rights over it - just ownership of the Yuzu branding. Yuzu owns the brand name, not the code.

Finally, I really think we've gotta stop playing dumb when it comes to emulation - 99% of people who use emulators for any kind of 'otherwise available on modern platforms' games are doing so because they see an opportunity to play a game without having to pay for it and know they can get away with it above all else. Even if you think game preservation is important, it's not why people actually use emulators. Just annoyed at so many people trying to press on how 'noble' emulation is, when we all freaking know what the deal is in reality. I'm not anti-emulation either, I just think we need to be more honest about this in discussions.

The problem is that 'vibes' don't really come into play when we're having a discussion on the legal ramifications of a case. Whether you think people are being 'honest' about the end use case of emulation is irrelevant, the very concept of emulation is not illegal, and it should be obvious what the repercussions from any decision which validates that would be. What's illegal are ROM/ISO hosting sites, people sharing proprietary code.

Like I don't even know what "we need to be more honest about this" even means. Ok, so you think most people use emulation for piracy, fine. But if you're not willing to take the step that reverse engineering a platform to emulate it should be made illegal, then what's the point of even saying that?

Edit: I should add that even with all of Yuzu's egregious fuckups, the fact that they were US-based developers was very likely a key factor in Nintendo even attempting this suit at all. Their argument that Yuzu's behavior was evidentiary of an attempt to specifically violate the DCMA with the primary intention of doing so for copyright infringement would have far less sway with most European courts. So even the relatively narrow focus of this case was birthed in no small part due to geography.
 
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That does not mean that the source code - under the license of the GPL - is now illegal, you're hypothesizing at what the settlement means instead of understanding it. There's a massive difference between a settlement agreement with 2 private parties and the staggering legal precedence from actual winning a court case that ultimately results in non-proprietary, open source code being classified as illegal because a company doesn't like that it mimics their hardware.

Again, explain what legal recourse Nintendo can do with source code that does not contain any Nintendo IP?
Are you a lawyer?

Just cuz something is a 'settlement' doesn't mean there's not legal bindings involved. Yuzu cant just say, "Oh well, not gonna actually destroy the source code, cuz it was only a gentleman's agreement".

If Nintendo really thought this would do NOTHING to stop Yuzu emulation at all, why would they bother at all? What was the point? Why would they mandate that the Yuzu source code must be destroyed if others are just going to freely use it without issue?

We all know Nintendo's only issue here is they are anti-emulation.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to hear an explanation of why Nintendo put the effort into this they did, and why they'd settle with the agreement they did, mandating the destruction of Yuzu source code.
 
The problem is that 'vibes' don't really come into play when we're having a discussion on the legal ramifications of a case. Whether you think people are being 'honest' about the end use case of emulation is irrelevant, the very concept of emulation is not illegal, and it should be obvious what the repercussions from any decision which validates that would be. What's illegal are ROM/ISO hosting sites, people sharing proprietary code.

Like I don't even know what "we need to be more honest about this" even means. Ok, so you think most people use emulation for piracy, fine. But if you're not willing to take the step that reverse engineering a platform to emulate it should be made illegal, then what's the point of even saying that?

Edit: I should add that even with all of Yuzu's egregious fuckups, the fact that they were US-based developers was very likely a key factor in Nintendo even attempting this suit at all. Their argument that Yuzu's behavior was evidentiary of an attempt to specifically violate the DCMA with the primary intention of doing so for copyright infringement would have far less sway with most European courts. So even the relatively narrow focus of this case was birthed in no small part due to geography.
That part of my comment had nothing to do with any 'legal' aspect and just more with how people talk about this subject, as if emulation is some purely noble thing. I'm pro-emulation to be clear, but it's laughable how many people act like it's not almost entirely just a way for PC users to steal games and play them for free. Stop the pretense.
 
Are you a lawyer?

Just cuz something is a 'settlement' doesn't mean there's not legal bindings involved. Yuzu cant just say, "Oh well, not gonna actually destroy the source code, cuz it was only a gentleman's agreement".

If Nintendo really thought this would do NOTHING to stop Yuzu emulation at all, why would they bother at all? What was the point? Why would they mandate that the Yuzu source code must be destroyed if others are just going to freely use it without issue?

We all know Nintendo's only issue here is they are anti-emulation.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to hear an explanation of why Nintendo put the effort into this they did, and why they'd settle with the agreement they did, mandating the destruction of Yuzu source code.
Was any of this Yuzu stuff in violation of Nintendo trademarks? If so then that's one big reason to pursue legal action against Yuzu.
 
mods: Apologies for not asking sooner, could these posts perhaps be shunted off into another thread? Clearly outside the DF scope at this point.


Are you a lawyer?

"Are you this thing I am also not?"

Just cuz something is a 'settlement' doesn't mean there's not legal bindings involved. Yuzu cant just say, "Oh well, not gonna actually destroy the source code, cuz it was only a gentleman's agreement".

There are of course legal bindings involved, that's what makes a settlement enforceable. The problem is you don't understand what's actually being enforced here.

They 'destroyed' their hosting of the code, their promotion of it, and their company. They agreed to cease further development.

The forks of that code though, are not relevant to this settlement, as Yuzu does not own it. Nintendo has no legal recourse to order open source code, under the GPL license, to be wiped from the Internet if it does not contain their IP.

If Nintendo really thought this would do NOTHING to stop Yuzu emulation at all, why would they bother at all?

For one, they had their sights on Yuzu because Yuzu was by far, the most prominent Switch emulator and was often promoted in mainstream sources - hell, Steam for a brief period actually had a pic of it in a Steam Deck ad. Secondly, the Yuzu developers themselves helped along this suit in many ways, such as making $30k having a Patreon and more blatantly, actually hosting pirated software (allegedly) to be used by contributors. That gave Nintendo the impetus to argue in a US court that the primary purpose of Yuzu was to steal IP, hence violating the DCMA.

You act as if Nintendo moved heaven and earth to make this happen, but it was settled in a week! As a result of some lawyer fees and paying some staff to monitor their Discord, Nintendo got the most publicly facing Switch emulator taken down, but more importantly, removed the considerable expertise of its developers from the emulation scene. The fact that forked source code is available on Github doesn't mean you'll see Yuzu development pick right up where it left off, far from it.

Like I've said, emulation is hard. What Nintendo accomplished was also to spook potential future developers from looking at Yuzu's $30k monthly Patreon income and thinking it may be time to invest their knowledge into something that could be more than a hobby, they could make a good living at it. The effective result of this suit is the climate around emulation has been cooled enough where potential monetization has been significantly curtailed, this will further slow future development. One less incentive for the considerable time and effort it takes to create these.

So Nintendo did get quite a bit out of this, even if they (wisely) didn't try and make the very concept of emulation illegal. Yuzu is dead, potential further development of the codebase has been significantly curtailed, and potential Switch2 emulation has likely been seriously hampered as well. That's a lot of knowledgeable talent either legally prohibited from contributing to such a project or others just scared off now.

Why would they mandate that the Yuzu source code must be destroyed if others are just going to freely use it without issue?

They didn't mandate the 'source code must be destroyed', they entered into an agreement that Yuzu developers can no longer contribute to it, and they have to remove all of their hosting of it and remove the Yuzu branding.

That part of my comment had nothing to do with any 'legal' aspect and just more with how people talk about this subject, as if emulation is some purely noble thing. I'm pro-emulation to be clear,

So then your complaint against some unspecified 'feeling' with how the discourse around emulation is carried out is wholly irrelevant to the discussion in this thread.

BTW, here's the settlement.

Of note:

1. A permanent injunction is entered against Defendant enjoining it and its members,agents, servants, employees, independent contractors, successors, assigns, and all those acting in privity or under its control from:

a. Offering to the public, providing, marketing, advertising, promoting,selling, testing, hosting, cloning, distributing, or otherwise trafficking in Yuzu or anys ource code or features of Yuzu;

b. Offering to the public, providing, marketing, advertising, promoting,selling, testing, hosting, cloning, distributing, or otherwise trafficking in other software or devices that circumvent Nintendo’s technical protection measures, including without limitation by using unauthorized copies of Nintendo’s proprietary cryptographic keys to decrypt Nintendo’s video games (or component files);

2. The Court further enjoins all third parties acting in active concert and participation with Defendant from:


a. Offering to the public, providing, marketing, advertising, promoting,selling, testing, hosting, cloning, distributing, or otherwise trafficking in Yuzu or anysource code or features of Yuzu; and
b. Offering to the public, providing, marketing, advertising, promoting,selling, testing, hosting, cloning, distributing, or otherwise trafficking in other software ordevices that circumvent Nintendo’s technical protection measures, including without limitation by using unauthorized copies of Nintendo’s proprietary cryptographic keys to decrypt Nintendo’s video games (or component files).


That's very clear to me: Yuzu, or rather Tropic Haze and any of its employees, can no longer have any interaction with the further promotion or development of Yuzu. It is not against the code itself.
 
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Finally, I really think we've gotta stop playing dumb when it comes to emulation - 99% of people who use emulators for any kind of 'otherwise available on modern platforms' games are doing so because they see an opportunity to play a game without having to pay for it and know they can get away with it above all else. Even if you think game preservation is important, it's not why people actually use emulators. Just annoyed at so many people trying to press on how 'noble' emulation is, when we all freaking know what the deal is in reality. I'm not anti-emulation either, I just think we need to be more honest about this in discussions.
I couldn't have said this better. I mean, of course emulators aren't illegal, but the acquisition and use of most of the content they play is most certainly a violation of laws. But it isn't the case in any other industry where the pirates of that industry are white knighted in a way that video games are. Having a drive full of ROMs isn't about preserving video game's culture for the sake of humanity, it's because you want to play games you don't own. And like you, I accept that fact and am not anti-emulation. I'm just anti celebrating the piracy community for faux noble purposes.
The problem is that 'vibes' don't really come into play when we're having a discussion on the legal ramifications of a case. Whether you think people are being 'honest' about the end use case of emulation is irrelevant, the very concept of emulation is not illegal, and it should be obvious what the repercussions from any decision which validates that would be. What's illegal are ROM/ISO hosting sites, people sharing proprietary code.
The specifics of this case might never be fully available to the public, thanks in part to this out of court settlement. And while it's an interesting case with plenty of nuance, known and unknown, in the specific, it doesn't change the known most common use of emulation in the abstract. Just because the courts have to look at emulation in the isolation of the law does not prevent us from looking at it wholistically. The quote is
we've gotta stop playing dumb when it comes to emulation
Not the law. Not the courts. Us. We. We know what they are doing, and why they are doing it. We are likely doing it or have done it in the past as well. We can be thankful that pirates have hoarded "backups" of video games for preservation, but I think we can all know that by and large, outside of guys like Frank Cifaldi, they... We, weren't doing it for that reason. We were doing it to play games that we are not entitled to, in most cases, under most laws. We just feel entitled to them.

I hear these type of statements every day. "If Nintendo would only sell me these games I wouldn't have to emulate them!" Cool. If your mom would sell me her cookie recipe I wouldn't have to steal it. You see how weird and entitled that sounds?

We can know that emulators are legal while also accepting that they facilitate video game piracy. And we don't have to pretend that video game piracy is noble, even if we have taken part in it.
 
The specifics of this case might never be fully available to the public, thanks in part to this out of court settlement.

You can literally read the settlement. The exact specifics of Yuzu's operations can't be fully known yes, but that's neither here nor there when the case is settled on the grounds that are publicly provided.

We can know that emulators are legal while also accepting that they facilitate video game piracy. And we don't have to pretend that video game piracy is noble, even if we have taken part in it.

Who is doing that? Be specific. Nobody is preventing you from quoting them and arguing with them.

Like really, why are these arguments presented not actually quoting someone they're supposedly arguing against? I fully agree that "I am morally correct to pirate Switch games because they don't offer them on PC" is ridiculous.

Us. We. We know what they are doing, and why they are doing it.

Then.
What.
Is.
The.
Implication.

Come on, say what you want to happen with this supposed forbidden knowledge. Should discussion of emulators be banned here? Should emulators be restricted? No? Then what is your point, exactly? Give an indication of what you think stating that actually means. Otherwise it's just, "Hey folks, I'm the one willing to look behind the veil here. Piracy is bad". 🙄

(Also btw, I would argue that emulation coders in general, but even Yuzu's developers, are likely not taking the 10+ years it takes to make a competent emulator solely, if even primarily, to avoid just paying for games. The end users? Sure, a decent majority probably. But the considerable time and effort to actually contribute to these projects in any meaningful way does not make any financial sense for the developers just to avoid the cost of games.)
 
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The agreement, by court supervision, is that Yuzu(and Cintra) must be destroyed. I dont see how Yuzu, in any form, can live on. What would even be the point of Nintendo demanding this if just anybody else could take all the same source code and rename it and keep using it? Would have been pretty much a waste of time.
You're extrapolating the legal status of emulators from an interpretation of this outcome. The "destruction of everything" is just how you clean shop, but that's limited to the Defendant's operations.

The court orders spell out who can and can't use Yuzu and its source code:
5. The Court further orders, pursuant to 17 U.S.C. §§ 503 & 1203, upon Nintendo’s​
election and to the extent controlled by Defendant or its members, the destruction by deletion of​
all circumvention devices, including all copies of Yuzu, all circumvention tools used for​
developing or using Yuzu—such as TegraRcmGUI, Hekate, Atmosphère, Lockpick_RCM,​
NDDumpTool, nxDumpFuse, and TegraExplorer, and all copies of Nintendo cryptographic keys​
including the prod.keys, and all other electronic material within Defendant or its members’​
custody, possession, or control that violate Nintendo’s rights under the DMCA or infringe​
copyrights owned or exclusively licensed by Nintendo.​

The destruction by deletion of all circumvention devices, including all copies of Yuzu...within Defendant or its members’ custody, possession, or control. The only somewhat ambiguous bit is order 2:

2. The Court further enjoins all third parties acting in active concert and participation​
with Defendant from:​
a. Offering to the public, providing, marketing, advertising, promoting,​
selling, testing, hosting, cloning, distributing, or otherwise trafficking in Yuzu or any​
source code or features of Yuzu; and​

This refuses further distribution of Yuzu source code, but only for "third parties acting in active concert and participation with Defendant". I don't think independent third parties come under that.


Nintendo's entire intentions here were not some 'oh ok, we're ok with the emulation, but you guys were going about it wrong, nice try, but not today!',
None of the companies are okay with emulation but there's nothing they can do about it in the ordinary course of events.

Emulators are not illegal. I'll point to Wiki on this where numerous attempts by console companies to stop emulators and have them ruled illegal have failed.
The fact they are used for piracy doesn't render emulators themselves illegal. That's be proven in court time and time again, so that point is pretty irrelevant to the understanding of what Nintendo can get out of this.

no, Nintendo saw an opportunity to put the kibosh on Yuzu completely. You think Nintendo are so short sighted that they went through all this if it's not actually gonna actually stop Yuzu?
They have successfully stopped the commercial operation and piracy of their games by Yuzu who were using illegal hacking methods to gain access to pre-release games. That's what they set out to do. They didn't set out to stop NSW emulation, much as they'd like to, because they can't. Unless there's evidence of stolen IP within the Yuzu source code, it can't legally be stopped and can be continued by other parties so long as they don't circumvent Nintendo's securities.

The message is out that if you try to make illegal money from emulators, you'll be punished. Emulators remain free for people to develop and use for their own paid-or legal content, which is a good enough outcome.

Now if the source is illegal, Nintendo will go after Github etc to remove it. However, the court orders did not say every copy everywhere has to be destroyed; only those relating to the defendant and their collaborators, so there's not an obvious pointer to this happening.
 
(Also btw, I would argue that emulation coders in general, but even Yuzu's developers, are likely not taking the 10+ years it takes to make a competent emulator solely, if even primarily, to avoid just paying for games. The end users? Sure, a decent majority probably. But the considerable time and effort to actually contribute to these projects in any meaningful way does not make any financial sense for the developers just to avoid the cost of games.)
Huh. It must be some noble pursuit, then.
 
Huh. It must be some noble pursuit, then.

The second most popular Switch emulator, Ryujinx, pulls in around $2k US per month - and even that is high compared to past emulation efforts, which receive small donations or nothing. Yuzu was by far the exception in this regard. It should be abundantly clear that this practice is not anywhere near sustainable to even cover basic expenses for one coder, let alone make a comfortable income for the vast majority of projects.

If you say "I support emulation, but" - then go on to imply anyone who's undertaken the monumental project of coding an emulator for a decade+ is doing so purely to steal intellectual property, and anyone who ever uses it is also just a common thief, then I'm really wondering what 'support' even means in this context. I can recognize the threat of piracy yes, but in the age of "you don't own this product, you only own the license" , and the countless examples of the DCMA being abused over the years, it's very odd to me hold corporate IP as some sacrosanct principle that is morally abhorrent to ever violate in any fashion.

And btw, there are plenty of hacked Switches out there - console owners can engage in piracy too without giving a thought to emulation!
 
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it's very odd to me hold corporate IP as some sacrosanct principle that is morally abhorrent to ever violate in any fashion.
Hard disagree. Whether corporate or not, theft of work and ideas is wrong just as theft of material items is. Even in a 'license' world, rules and principles should be upheld and not ignored just because one feels the corporations have too much power. If you don't like a licensing deal for a game, don't buy it, but then don't play it either. Playing a stolen game, emulation or not, isn't ever some noble "Robin Hood, stick it to the Man" move. Gaming is an optional luxury pastime and nothing people are entitled to by right like the essentials.
 
Hard disagree. Whether corporate or not, theft of work and ideas is wrong just as theft of material items is. Even in a 'license' world, rules and principles should be upheld and not ignored just because one feels the corporations have too much power. If you don't like a licensing deal for a game, don't buy it, but then don't play it either. Playing a stolen game, emulation or not, isn't ever some noble "Robin Hood, stick it to the Man" move. Gaming is an optional luxury pastime and nothing people are entitled to by right like the essentials.

That's not what I'm talking about in this context. I'm speaking of implying emulator developers who enable the possibility of IP theft as part of their project are therefore equally innoble as someone hosting a ROM site is an overly simplistic moral binary.

I mean, 'hacking' your HP printer to prevent HP from bricking it with a firmware update because you wanted to use third party refillable ink cartridge is violating the DCMA for example. I will absolutely not put someone who does that into the same moral category as someone who shoplifts an actual HP cartridge from Staples.
 
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