PS3 sales

until 2008 when it's feasible. ;)

Yeah, it's simple demand/price stuff. As price decreases, so demand increases. But, no one will mention a price drop is on the horizon. It's a bit like some guy who invented a computer system (this is true, I can't remember the name), refused to drop the price and said a new version was on the way. No one brought the initial one, so the company couldn't afford to produce the latter and went bankrupt.

As any business will, it makes sense to squeeze the demand ratio out as much as possible before lowering price points!
 
until 2008 when it's feasible. ;)

Not just feasible from a product cost point but also from public relation point of a view. Dropping $100 off the price of a console less than a year later would not look so great in the eyes of consumers. To a certain extent gamers are trained to expect hardware price cuts. But they hardly ever happen the first year of its life. Esp. in the case of Sony consoles. I can only imagine the stories of Sony doom if they drop $100 off the price of both sku's in 2007.
 
He's completely over simplifying it.

But everyone else isn't, right?

Perhaps you're saying that as soon as they become demand limited Sony will drop the price

Of course that's what I mean.

I don't know if this is the case, it really depends on their ability to drop the price, and whether this drop in demand occurs one month from now, or 6 months.

Well, it depends a little on what the E.U. launch does. Say that the current Japanese demand is 70.000 a week. Say that the current U.S. demand is 100.000 a week. If Sony can make 1 million consoles a month, that leaves about 90.000 consoles a week for Europe. Now, let's assume that Europe will sell somewhere between the Japanese and the European launch numbers, 750.000. That means that the supplies to the U.S. and Japan will have to temporarily supply 750.000-360.000 = 390000 extra units, or almost 100.000 units a week for a period of a month. This means that with the current demand being stable, and with stores still having to fill up before they are all stocked with PS3s, imho it will take at least until the summer before the PS3 isn't supply limited. By that time the games will start coming in in significant quantities (you'll laugh, but God of War 2 having native HD support specially for the PS3 will sell at least a few PS3s, and people will be able to hook up their old SingStar mikes while downloading new songs to their own tasts, and be reminded of the synergy between the Playstation 2 and the Playstation 3 in the process ... ), the BluRay factor will start becoming more and more significant as HDtv progressess, and so on and so forth.

I'm not saying that the 360 isn't going to sell. I'm sure that the Wii is going to sell great (biggest threat right now to 2007 sales of both the 360 and PS3, imho). But I'm also saying that the PS3 is going to be mostly supply limited for a while yet. Hey, I'm not exlcuding the possibility that they screw up, but they are looking good for Europe (expecting F1 to be a big hitter too).

Which reminds me - if Heavenly Sword really is postponed to Q3, then I wouldn't be surprised if it had anything to do with the release of God of War 2 and its PS3 support. But so far I haven't heard much reliable info on that yet?
 
There are discounts in both the USA and Japan for the system and many reports of them sitting on shelves or in the back waiting to be sold. This doesn't strike me as supply limited. The Wii is supply limited. The Ps3 is demand limited.
 
Well, it depends a little on what the E.U. launch does. Say that the current Japanese demand is 70.000 a week. Say that the current U.S. demand is 100.000 a week. If Sony can make 1 million consoles a month, that leaves about 90.000 consoles a week for Europe. Now, let's assume that Europe will sell somewhere between the Japanese and the European launch numbers, 750.000. That means that the supplies to the U.S. and Japan will have to temporarily supply 750.000-360.000 = 390000 extra units, or almost 100.000 units a week for a period of a month. This means that with the current demand being stable, and with stores still having to fill up before they are all stocked with PS3s, imho it will take at least until the summer before the PS3 isn't supply limited. By that time the games will start coming in in significant quantities (you'll laugh, but God of War 2 having native HD support specially for the PS3 will sell at least a few PS3s, and people will be able to hook up their old SingStar mikes while downloading new songs to their own tasts, and be reminded of the synergy between the Playstation 2 and the Playstation 3 in the process ... ), the BluRay factor will start becoming more and more significant as HDtv progressess, and so on and so forth.

I see some major problems with your numbers:

A) "Say that the current U.S. demand is 100.000 a week", That would be 400-500k/month, not even the PS2 at the height of it's populatiry, at $199, was able to sustain these types of numbers for an entire year. While we might see those numbers for 1 or 2 months, it most likely will not last longer than that.

b) "current Japanese demand is 70.000 a week" - Current japanese demand isn't that high, they sold only 26k last week, and is not sold out, so it's not even close.

c) "that leaves about 90.000 consoles a week for Europe" - 360k/month for Europe!!? Those are some very lofty expectations after the launch month.
 
true, but at the original time of the poll, there was no 20 GB HDD version... there was only one system announced with all the bells and whistles including 2 HDMI etc, etc... :smile:

so people were hoping for/expecting (80.13%) between $399 $499 fully loaded.

Whoah! in my hastiness I thought he was talking about the Joshua lunas new poll :oops:
I don't remember what I voted on that old poll...

God of War 2 having native HD support specially for the PS3 will sell at least a few PS3's

What does that mean BTW that it supports 480p widescreen like the first one and many other games or something else? I remember them saying something about optimizing it for HD, but that sounded quite vague if you ask me. I personally don't see GoW2 pushing PS3 sales, actually quite the opposite imo. It's not a good situation that in the near future the best upcoming games on Sony platform are still going to be on PS2 which is 5-6x cheaper than the new model.
 
If N64 launched alongside PS1 at the same price without being cartridge based and with developer friendlier licensing fees, Sony would of got hammered. There was just no messing with the Nintendo brand at the time.

It seems when a hardware manufacturer loses favor with the market. It is always due to some mistake/mistakes that in hindsight sticks/stick out like a sore thumb.

I agree, because ultimately consumers really don't want to have to decide between competing console brands (because they don't consider what lack of competition would bring to the marketplace). They want a one-stop shop solution if possible and need a very good reason to switch brands. Sony has supplied too many of those reasons this generation and this has hurt them.

MS simply had the money to wait it out until Sony made mistakes and then they took advantage of these mistakes to divide the market.
 
Ms will cut the price for Halo 3. Perhaps earlier to help pick up some early fall sales. Sadly for ms their only released killer app is a mature rated title (GOW) and makes it hard to bundle. No other game by itself has that much hype behind it. Perhaps they can do a kameo + viva piñata bundle. Or maybe a Kameo + PDZ bundle. I’m not sure. Would they go to a third party title they don’t publish?

There have been quite a few 360 official bundles with non-MS games (PES, Saints Row...).

People should read the Stringer interview from last week. In it, it was mentioned that Kutargi had 'promised' PS3 to be profitable by the end of calendar '07.

And we all know we can trust Kutaragi when it comes to predicting PS3 production.

kaigai18.jpg
 
March 2006: Sony announces 6m ps3s at worldwide launch
May 2006: Sony announces 2m ps3s at worldwide launch, 2m in dec and 2m in march
Sept 2006: Sony announces 0.5m ps3s at us/japan launch, europe delayed
Nov 2006: 0.28m ps3s at us/japan launch according to figures

Quite impressive figure. i am sure i am wrong somewhere there.

but, now they solved CBEA yield problems, there shouldn't be manufacturing problems in the future
 
Right at product launch, you think a company is going to mention a price drop? No company mentions a price drop, it's suicide because people aren't stupid - they will wait.

A company won't talk on immediate price drops and thats common knowledge.

However, the question pertained to using a similar strategy of dropping the price $100.00 a year and a half after launch. I doubt that Sony would be so restrictive and maintain a policy of not talking about price dropping whatsoever.

Plus, the typical response is "We have no plans on a price drop" and not "the price won't drop like in the past".
 
A company won't talk on immediate price drops and thats common knowledge.

However, the question pertained to using a similar strategy of dropping the price $100.00 a year and a half after launch. I doubt that Sony would be so restrictive and maintain a policy of not talking about price dropping whatsoever.

Plus, the typical response is "We have no plans on a price drop" and not "the price won't drop like in the past".

The price will be dictated by sales, regardless of profitability. Sure Sony wants to make a profit asap to start recovering R&D but they cannot afford to have ps3's stacking in warehouses.

If that means more losses in the meantime they will accept those losses and target profitability for the platform later and through alternate means.
 
The price will be dictated by sales, regardless of profitability. Sure Sony wants to make a profit asap to start recovering R&D but they cannot afford to have ps3's stacking in warehouses.

If that means more losses in the meantime they will accept those losses and target profitability for the platform later and through alternate means.

I agree that ultimately demand dictates price. However, Sony has produced a predictive time line which includes potential performance and potential courses of action. You don't produce your strategy in realtime you just tweak it depending what happens in realtime. Sony has an idea of its production capability over time as well as the cost saving from component cost reductions. Price dropping is a common strategy in the console hardware market so talking about pricing strategy in general isn't a big deal. No one going to say "I waiting on a cheaper PS3 because Sony says it will be cheaper in 2008". They wait because they know that consoles will decrease in price over time.
 
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£425 quid. Man, that's over $835 dollars!

STRICTLY EMBARGOED UNTIL MIDNIGHT WEDNESDAY 24th JANUARY GMT

PS3 to Launch in UK on 23rd March 2007
Over 30 Titles for Launch Period
1 Million units forecast for Initial European Launch Period

London, 24 January 2007 – Sony Computer Entertainment Europe today announced that PLAYSTATION®3 will be launched in the PAL territories including the United Kingdom on 23rd March 2007 at a price of £425.

Responding to retail and consumer demand, SCEE confirmed that initially only the 60GB model would be available, with the 20GB model to follow later in the year dependent on demand.

An expected one million PS3 units will be made available during the initial launch period to all SCEE territories.

SCEE also announced a stellar launch line-up of over 30 game titles for PS3, including eagerly awaited titles published by SCEE such as Resistance: Fall of Man™, MotorStorm™, Genji™: Days of the Blade, FORMULA ONE CHAMPIONSHIP EDITION and Ridge Racer™ 7. An exceptional range of titles in every genre will also be available at launch from the world’s leading third party publishers, including Electronic Arts, Activision, Namco Bandai, Sega, Take 2, Ubisoft, Vivendi Universal, and Sony Online Entertainment.

In addition to games on disc, an exciting range of fully-featured downloadable games
will debut on the PLAYSTATION®Network. These will include gaming icons such as Tekken®: Dark Resurrection and Gran Turismo® HD Concept; the fully-featured PS3 debut of the best-selling franchise Gran Turismo, realised with full HD (1080p) visual quality. Created by Polyphony Digital Inc and published by Sony Computer Entertainment, Gran Turismo® HD Concept has been downloaded by more than 350,000 users since it was released in December 2006 in North America and Japan.

Also available on the PLAYSTATION®Network will be brainteasers such as Go! Sudoku and Go! Puzzle, and innovative games such as Blast Factor™ and flOw™, designed exclusively for PLAYSTATION 3 and delivering on the promise to provide original content created by non-traditional developers and publishers.

Concurrent with the European launch, a new System Update to further enhance the entertainment potential of PS3 will be issued.

Announcing the launch details, Ray Maguire, SVP and MD of SCEUK said, “Following the hugely successful launches of PS3 in Japan and North America, we are absolutely delighted to be able to bring significant numbers of PS3 to the UK. To be able to launch with over 30 titles including retail versions and great downloadable gaming experiences across every genre shows that this is our strongest launch line-up in the history of PlayStation, and is what PlayStation fans in the UK have been crying out for.â€

PLAYSTATION 3 LAUNCH TITLE LINE-UP

Resistance: Fall of Manâ„¢ - SCEE - Disc
MotorStormâ„¢ - SCEE - Disc
Genjiâ„¢: Days of the Blade - SCEE - Disc
FORMULA ONE CHAMPIONSHIP EDITION - SCEE - Disc
Ridge Racerâ„¢ 7 - SCEE - Disc
Tekken®: Dark Resurrection - SCEE - Network
Lemmingsâ„¢ - SCEE - Network
Go! Sudoku - SCEE - Network
Go! Puzzle - SCEE - Network
Blast Factorâ„¢ - SCEE - Network
flOwâ„¢ - SCEE - Network
Super Rub’a'Dub - SCEE - Network
Call of Duty 3 - Activision UK Ltd - Disc
Marvel: Ultimate Alliance - Activision UK Ltd - Disc
Tony Hawk’s Project 8 - Activision UK Ltd - Disc
Gundam – Target in Sight - Namco Bandai Games - Disc
Full Auto™ 2: Battle Lines - Sega®Europe Ltd - Disc
Sonic the Hedgehog™ - Sega®Europe Ltd - Disc
Virtua Fighter™ 5 - Sega®Europe Ltd - Disc
Virtua Tennis™ 3 - Sega®Europe Ltd - Disc
World Snooker Championship 2007 - Sega®Europe Ltd - Disc
NBA 2K7 - Take 2 International SA - Disc
NHL 2K7 - Take 2 International SA - Disc
Blazing Angels Squadrons of WWll - Ubisoft Entertainment SA - Disc
Enchanted Arms - Ubisoft Entertainment SA - Disc
Tom Clancy’s Splinter Cell: Double Agent - Ubisoft Entertainment SA - Disc
The Elder Scrolls lV: Oblivion - Ubisoft Entertainment SA - Disc
Def Jam: Icon - Electronic Arts Ltd - Disc
Fight Night Round 3 - Electronic Arts Ltd - Disc
NBA Street 4 Homecourt 2007 - Electronic Arts Ltd - Disc
Need for Speed Carbon - Electronic Arts Ltd - Disc
The Godfather: The Don’s Edition - Electronic Arts Ltd - Disc
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 2007 - Electronic Arts Ltd - Disc
Untold Legends: Dark Kingdom - Electronic Arts Ltd - Disc
F.E.A.R. Vivendi - Universal Games Intl SA - Disc
Gripshift - Sony Online Entertainment - Network


PLAYSTATION 3 Peripherals Available at Launch

Peripheral - RRP in £ Sterling

SIXAXIS™ Wireless Controller - £34.99
Blu-ray Disc Remote Control - £17.99
HDMI Cable - £17.99
AV cable - £17.99
Component AV cable - £17.99
S Video cable - £12.99
 
Hey, i'm usually more pro-Sony, but even i have to say i don't agree with that. At the current price, i would be VERY surprised (and i'm never VERY surprised) if they can sell all their supply in the next 12 months. Heck, they can't sell all their supply now, after just 2 months! At the beginning, i thought the reports about PS3 sitting on shelves were just one-off instances in towns forgotten by god and gamers, but it seems that there are a lot of PS3's sitting on shelves around the US and Japan, even in big cities. That's just not a good sign, as much brand recognition Sony has, it's obviously not enough to make people dish out that much money, especially when there is really not much software worth it at the moment. Though this will change soon.

The time when they will be forced to drop the price - or sales will slows down a lot - will be much closer.

Alternative: new SKU
Drop the harddrive as mandatory (possibly)
Remove HDMI
Remove any other extra ports
Cheaper components/case (such as no solid state capacitors, cheaper cooling design)
And if they're really desperate, find out the max number of SPEs any dev has used so far and start using a cut down Cell and drop the ability of devs to access more SPEs

Ok, this will never happen, but at this point it's almost looking like Sony should start over and release a cheaper PS3-Lite to compete.

Anyhow, I've yet to seen stacks of PS3 anywhere (though I haven't been looking) but every store has had at least a few while having no Wiis. Of course, there may be more PS3s in the back and they just have a few boxes out front for display to show that they're in stock.

But on the Internet, you get these reports of stacks of PS3s sitting unsold for weeks. You also get reports that 7 out of 8 people in some office have Zunes and the eighth guy is planning to get one as well. And they were all iPod owners.

So you're saying it's all just Microsoft viral marketing?

I must say though, if the PS3 doesn't make it into the #1 spot this gen, it will probably be the biggest loss of market share ever, percentage wise and absolutely. Well, Sega did lose quite a significant percentage going from Genesis to Saturn (around 50% to sub 10%), so they may still hold the crown, unless you count old timers like Atari when the entire market was under 10 million.

Game Informer magazine interviewed SCEA’s President and CEO Jack Tretton and one of the topics discussed was PS3’s cost.

The magazine asked if the PS3 would see a price drop schedule similar to PS2, which saw a reduction of a third from $299 to $199 just over a year and a half after launch. Tretton replied to the question with a simple “No,â€￾ thus leaving the current price points where they are at for at least the rest of 2007.

Tretton reasoned that the enormous R&D costs of the PS3 make it “a lot more difficult to cost reduceâ€￾ than the PS2. “There's a heck of a lot more under the hood and it costs us more money to make it,â€￾ said Tretton. He may be referring to the fact that Sony is selling every one of its new consoles at a loss, making it nearly impossible to move on the price until manufacturing costs are reduced. Analysts currently estimate that Sony is taking a $241 hit on 60GB versions, and a $307 loss on 20GB PS3s. ( http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=4981)

1. Corporate execs always say stuff like that, even if the price reduction is tomorrow. They'd rather people buy now than hold off.
2. I doubt Sony is losing money on the PS3s. At this point, with the production lines fairly ramped up, it'd be poor planning of Sony not to be at a break even price point now.
3. Considering PS3 was supposed to be profitable in a year, I don't think they could take losses LARGER THAN THE COST OF THEIR PREVIOUS SYSTEM on the console and pull that off. Even if for some freak reason, the PS2 was sold at a 50% loss, it doesn't mean Sony can afford the same percentage with the PS3. Besides, what was the average game-system tie-in for the ps2? Game costs haven't risen proportionally with the supposed increase in losses, where do they plan to make back the money? I bet Sony loves these "PS3 costs $900 to build!" comments, especially when a PC with:
256MB ram
a 256MB video card (say a 7900GT)
60GB harddrive
dual core cpu (About the same die size as cell)
Doesn't cost anywhere near that price, doesn't have the same economies of scale (the individual parts may but the whole system doesn't) and has to turn a profit.

BTW, forget the ps3, look at ps3 accessories. It's still difficult to find a wiimote, yet every store I go to has piles of six-axis controllers.
 
It seems like a good strategy to only release the 60G model, while holding the 20G for later, maybe with a reduced price, if need be.
 
1. Corporate execs always say stuff like that, even if the price reduction is tomorrow. They'd rather people buy now than hold off.
2. I doubt Sony is losing money on the PS3s. At this point, with the production lines fairly ramped up, it'd be poor planning of Sony not to be at a break even price point now.
3. Considering PS3 was supposed to be profitable in a year, I don't think they could take losses LARGER THAN THE COST OF THEIR PREVIOUS SYSTEM on the console and pull that off. Even if for some freak reason, the PS2 was sold at a 50% loss, it doesn't mean Sony can afford the same percentage with the PS3. Besides, what was the average game-system tie-in for the ps2? Game costs haven't risen proportionally with the supposed increase in losses, where do they plan to make back the money? I bet Sony loves these "PS3 costs $900 to build!" comments, especially when a PC with:
256MB ram
a 256MB video card (say a 7900GT)
60GB harddrive
dual core cpu (About the same die size as cell)
Doesn't cost anywhere near that price, doesn't have the same economies of scale (the individual parts may but the whole system doesn't) and has to turn a profit.

BTW, forget the ps3, look at ps3 accessories. It's still difficult to find a wiimote, yet every store I go to has piles of six-axis controllers.

WOW, where to start.
256MB Samsung RDRAM (800) $89
Mobo & Intel Core 2 Duo 1.8GHZ $229
XFX 256 7900GT $179
Wifi PCI $13
HD DVD Addon for Xbox $199 (only thing I could find)
80GB SATA Samsung $50 (cheaper then the 60GB I found)
Card reader/ Bluetooth / Case / PSU /SixAxis $115?

Total for all combined $851, not exactly "Doesn't cost anywhere near that price" that you mentioned.
Now granted I had to search the net for these things but I highly doubt the 1.8GHZ Core 2 Duo is equal to the Cell but I found the cheapest solution. I didn't add a HDMI port or a better Sound Card that can match what the PS3 is able to do so if we take into account what I didn't add with what Sony is probably paying for individual prices I don't think its that far off.

All in all even at 600 for what is "in" the PS3 its a pretty good deal. For that matter whats in the 360 is a steal as well even without the HDD or wireless controllers. To say a $900 Computer could match what a 300-600 dollar console can do (besides the Wii) is actually pretty funny and therefore the "value" of the components is worth more then the manufacturing costs. <--True for Wii as well.

Dregun
 
People should read the Stringer interview from last week. In it, it was mentioned that Kutargi had 'promised' PS3 to be profitable by the end of calendar '07. That suggests they're expecting massive falls in component prices which will cover the cost of subsidisng a launch (even at current prices)? If it is the case, then if they expect profit by the end of the year, I don't see why they couldn't manage a price cut to $399.

Stringer said "break even" by end of 2007 which could also mean small profit/small loss. They also said no price drop in 2007 which means if they drop the price, it will be in 1st half of 2008. Of course MS and Nintendo is ready for a price drop too so it's par for the course. Actually I expect MS and Nintendo could price drop by end of 2007.
 
People should read the Stringer interview from last week. In it, it was mentioned that Kutargi had 'promised' PS3 to be profitable by the end of calendar '07. That suggests they're expecting massive falls in component prices which will cover the cost of subsidisng a launch (even at current prices)? If it is the case, then if they expect profit by the end of the year, I don't see why they couldn't manage a price cut to $399.

Stringer said "break even" by end of 2007 which could also mean small profit/small loss. They also said no price drop in 2007 which means if they drop the price, it will be in 1st half of 2008. Of course MS and Nintendo is ready for a price drop too so it's par for the course. Actually I expect MS and Nintendo could price drop by end of 2007.

Thanks Capeta. I was going to respond but you beat me. I didn't quite catch how "being profitable" equated to "they should be able to manage a price cut to $399". I guess if he intended to mean, "If they can make a profit, then they can then turn around and take a loss with a price cut" which I could be agreeable too in theory. But it would be surprising to see a $399 price point and profits, especially considering Sony went from a projected 900M in losses for 4M units in CY 2006 to 1.7B in losses for 2M units in CY 2006. Assuming the 65nm transition is a big win for Sony, they would need to not only neutralize their current losses per unit but as well reduce cost enough to eek out another $100 a unit to have a "profitable" price cut. MS isn't projecting profits, even with their healthy game sales, until 2008, if that is any measure.
 
The price will be dictated by sales, regardless of profitability. Sure Sony wants to make a profit asap to start recovering R&D but they cannot afford to have ps3's stacking in warehouses.

If that means more losses in the meantime they will accept those losses and target profitability for the platform later and through alternate means.

But there is a point of no return kind of thing though. If they sell too many consoles loosing money on each one, and as soon as they maybe reach the breaking even point you are forced to lower the price again, you will get to a point were the attach ratio will need to be ridiculously high to recover the loss...
 
But there is a point of no return kind of thing though. If they sell too many consoles loosing money on each one, and as soon as they maybe reach the breaking even point you are forced to lower the price again, you will get to a point were the attach ratio will need to be ridiculously high to recover the loss...

Indeed - I think Sony is evaluating worst case scenarios currently and evaluating all their options. Financially it seems certain that if ps3 does not carry beyond 6 years, Sony will end up losing money on ps3. They may decide this is an acceptable loss to ensure Bluray adoption but BR may not seal the deal either. If HD-DVD is still around by that time, ps3 would have been an expensive gamble that did not pay off for Sony.

However they may decide (like MS) that they will toss the dice once more with ps4 and use these lessons to their advantage.
 
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