PS3, Holiday 2006

[London Geezer]

I'm amazed people are still discussing this.

There is a massive 35GB/s bus just between the RSX and Cell. How else could that be used if not to tightly integrate graphics, animation and physics routines between the two chips!

The VU1 processed most of the geometry on PS2, and it all went through a tiny 1.2GB/s bus to the GS. That's almost a 30X difference.

Thinking that there will not be an amazing interaction between Cell and RSX, comprising graphics and physics, is very naive.

 

[mckmas8808]

Never said that the CPU will not do, even on xbox360 they will do it, but this is not a PS2 where most the graphical job was done on the CPU. It was mostly the comparison to the PS2 that I objected to. CPUs have awlays helped out the GPU. As for EA pushing the graphical limit so hard that the RSX is not enough for them and need to use the Cell as well, well that I REALLY need to see, although that "data pushing power" could mean whatever, where do they come up with all those "terms"...

Well I made up the data pushing power name. But I understand what your post meant now. sorry

 

[SedentaryJourney]

Yes you added the "if" and that was what my response was based on. I'm not one for talking in absolutes (i actually hate when others do it) but to think that the 360s software situation doesnt improve from their LAUNCH lineup is really 'out there'.

To clarify: I was conceding the point that software quality will most likely improve. However, I didn't actually intend to imply that it wouldn't, not even in my original post. I was merely illustrating the point that launch software seemed shoddy to me.

Ok so youre saying a 3 minute UE3 engine tech demo of 2 characters fighting SEVERELY mitigated your anticipation for GoW? Did you ever have ANY anticipation for GoW to begin with?

100 UE3 engine games could come out on the PC but thats mostly a seperate sandbox from the console gamers in the big picture. Now if you have a PC and would rather play games on your PC thats fine, but its not representative of the market.

I would guess the UT2007 'RSX' demo (i.e. the 7800 GTX demo) will have been seen by .0001% of the console market.

I was floored by the original UE3 demo, and by GOW pre-E3, but yes, the UT2007 demo did "severely" mitigate my anticipation for GOW because aside from it being a graphical showcase, I think I'd rather play Ratchet and Clank.

Hyperbole aside, in trying to segment the "market" vs. the people who post on this board, I think you underestimate how many people have seen these demos on ign or gamespot. Not to mention how GOW does not compare all that favourably to the UT2007 demo, despite it being scripted and involving only two characters.

What if they are worse and their online component sucks? Speculation is fun!

You're right, speculation is fun. Especially the part where people chime in and discuss the validity of it all. Either way, my basic point is where x-platform titles are concerned, I doubt there are marketable differences between the differing versions. If you take issue with that, then by all means say so.

How many people, of the tens of millions that will buy consoles, are going to base their decision on an MGS trailer from may of 2005? There are a lot more marketing salvos that will have a MUCH bigger impact on both sides between now and late 2006.

I'm simply going to disagree here. Just as how MGS2 went a long way to sell the PS2's graphical superiority over DC and prospective 3rd party library, MGS4 accomplishes the same goal. Like I said in my last post, MGS4 remaining on the Playstation platform is a way of signalling that other franchises will likely remain. Of course I don't know this to be true, and the next FF might be for the 360, although I'll believe that when I see it on a press release. So it's not just about one game, it's about market perception.

I dont think MS is counting on PGR to carry the xbox 360 at all. Youre throwing the premiere franchise of Sony in the ring against a racing game on the 360, and not even the best one! Whats next Voodoo Vince 2 against Devil May cry?

Err...that's not what I'm doing. My point is that "the premiere franchise of Sony" may actually have a competitor in PGR3, SO LONG AS MS MARKETS IT IN SUCH A FASHION as to be considered a competitor. You say PGR3 isn't the best racing game on 360, well what is? Forza? In which case, sure, MS could back a next-gen Forza against GT5.

 

[scooby_dooby]

"I'm simply going to disagree here. Just as how MGS2 went a long way to sell the PS2's graphical superiority over DC and prospective 3rd party library, MGS4 accomplishes the same goal. "

The problem is, GOW is coming out in March, there's also Splinter Cell 4 coming in Q2. Mass Effect and Too Human are also coming down the pipes. All these games will more or less equal or surpass MGS4 from a graphical standpoint.

MGS4 will look much less impressive when it comes out at the end of 2006 or beginning of 2007 than it did at TGS2005. If PS3 is going to show it's graphical superiority, it won't be with MGS4 judging by the trailer.

 

[nAo]

MGS4 will look much less impressive when it comes out at the end of 2006 or beginning of 2007 than it did at TGS2005. If PS3 is going to show it's graphical superiority, it won't be with MGS4 judging by the trailer.

You're assuming MGS4 is not going to improve in the mean time..

 

[Mythos]

"I'm simply going to disagree here. Just as how MGS2 went a long way to sell the PS2's graphical superiority over DC and prospective 3rd party library, MGS4 accomplishes the same goal. "

The problem is, GOW is coming out in March, there's also Splinter Cell 4 coming in Q2. Mass Effect and Too Human are also coming down the pipes. All these games will more or less equal or surpass MGS4 from a graphical standpoint.

MGS4 will look much less impressive when it comes out at the end of 2006 or beginning of 2007 than it did at TGS2005. If PS3 is going to show it's graphical superiority, it won't be with MGS4 judging by the trailer.

You're also assuming lots of things here...

1st. That GOW will come out in March, that it will be some AAA title, and also its not a proven franchise.

2nd. Mass effect and too human - that they will be AAA titles, and there not proven franchises.

3rd. That they will surpased MGS4.

4th. These are projections from buying into hype.

5th. That even if those games do well that there won't still be anticipation for MGS4. It's been a proven franchise.

 

[blakjedi]

I was floored by the original UE3 demo, and by GOW pre-E3, but yes, the UT2007 demo did "severely" mitigate my anticipation for GOW ...Not to mention how GOW does not compare all that favourably to the UT2007 demo, despite it being scripted and involving only two characters.

Very strange perspective. UT2k7 will be on both systems you know... GoW is a GAME... not demo... coming out exclusively for 360 and looks better than any GAME we know about coming out between now and its release...

Most people were comparing GoW to the achievement that is MGS4 ... You have your opinions though... *shrug*

 

[scooby_dooby]

You're also assuming lots of things here...

1st. That GOW will come out in March, that it will be some AAA title, and also its not a proven franchise.

2nd. Mass effect and too human - that they will be AAA titles, and there not proven franchises.

3rd. That they will surpased MGS4.

4th. These are projections from buying into hype.

5th. That even if those games do well that there won't still be anticipation for MGS4. It's been a proven franchise.

This is a discussion about graphial superiority, not whether these games are AAA or not. I've seen in game clips from GOW, Mass Effect and Too Human, they are all easily as impressive as MGS4.

And the point stands regardless of whether GOW comes out in MArch, as long as it's before the PS3 hits the US, it will server to raise the bar and increase people's expectations.

In other words, by the time gamers actually see MGS4 on store shelves, there will be quite a few games already out that look better or at least equal, so I fail to see how MGS4 is going to establish PS3's "graphical superiority" in the minds of casual gamers.

 

[Gholbine]

This is a discussion about graphial superiority, not whether these games are AAA or not. I've seen in game clips from GOW, Mass Effect and Too Human, they are all easily as impressive as MGS4.

And the point stands regardless of whether GOW comes out in MArch, as long as it's before the PS3 hits the US, it will server to raise the bar and increase people's expectations.

In other words, by the time gamers actually see MGS4 on store shelves, there will be quite a few games already out that look better or at least equal, so I fail to see how MGS4 is going to establish PS3's "graphical superiority" in the minds of casual gamers.

Already has, for most people buddy. Not too sure why you don't see things the same way the media or other people do. I've yet to see anything that even comes close to MGS4 graphically. Perhaps this is something to do with a 'leniency' towards the Xbox?

 

[Hardknock]

Already has, for most people buddy. Not too sure why you don't see things the same way the media or other people do. I've yet to see anything that even comes close to MGS4 graphically. Perhaps this is something to do with a 'leniency' towards the Xbox?

Have you not seen the latest 720p GOW trailer? Seriously, it's on par if not better than MGS4(which looks amazing).

There were serious debates on whether the GOW trailer was pre-rendered or not. Check it out.


Edit: Here's some links:

http://xboxmovies.teamxbox.com/xbox-360-hires/2628/Gears-of-War-X05-Trailer-High-Resolution/

http://xboxyde.com/news_2183_en.html

 

[scooby_dooby]

Whatever, more like your blindness at recognizing the MANY flaws in the MGS4 trailer.

If you want to take screenshots of GOW, Mass Effect and MGS4 be my guest. MGS4 does NOT stand out as superior in any way.

The latest in-game trailer shot for GOW with the close-up of Marxis already is much better than anything in the MGS4 trailer.

I not saying the MGS trailer isn't great, it's simply not the greatest thing since sliced bread the PS fans have convinced themselves it is. The GFX in Mass Effect and GOW are arguably superior, and at the very least on par.

 

[Mythos]

This is a discussion about graphial superiority, not whether these games are AAA or not. I've seen in game clips from GOW, Mass Effect and Too Human, they are all easily as impressive as MGS4.

And the point stands regardless of whether GOW comes out in MArch, as long as it's before the PS3 hits the US, it will server to raise the bar and increase people's expectations.

In other words, by the time gamers actually see MGS4 on store shelves, there will be quite a few games already out that look better or at least equal, so I fail to see how MGS4 is going to establish PS3's "graphical superiority" in the minds of casual gamers.

Oh Boy!>>>clips. Does'nt even tell the whole story!

Even if GOW is great graphically if everthing else is broken then it won't go to raise the bar. The same for Mass effect and too human.

MS with the Xbox has hyped lots a games to be great graphically and then went on to suck.

And the point still stands....that those games stated will be better graphical (AAA) in the end as MGS4.

 

[Gholbine]

Have you not seen the latest 720p GOW trailer? Seriously, it's on par if not better than MGS4(which looks amazing).

There were serious debates on whether the GOW trailer was pre-rendered or not. Check it out.


Edit: Here's some links:

http://xboxmovies.teamxbox.com/xbox-360-hires/2628/Gears-of-War-X05-Trailer-High-Resolution/

http://xboxyde.com/news_2183_en.html

I've seen the trailer, and honestly, the only scene that even comes close to MGS4 is the scene where the camera backs away from the main guy, and then they stand up and fight. The same scene that's clearly a cut (or two.. or three) above any of the other graphics ever seen in the game, and the very same scene that's under so much scrutiny. Ignoring that scene, none of the graphics in Gears of War put even so much as a dent in MGS4.

 

[Hardknock]

I've seen the trailer, and honestly, the only scene that even comes close to MGS4 is the scene where the camera backs away from the main guy, and then they stand up and fight. The same scene that's clearly a cut (or two.. or three) above any of the other graphics ever seen in the game, and the very same scene that's under so much scrutiny. Ignoring that scene, none of the graphics in Gears of War put even so much as a dent in MGS4.

See that's the thing, that particular scene you're talking about is a cut-scene from GOW. The entire MGS4 trailer is a cut-scene. And the two are very much comparable. Now the other sections of the GOW trailer are gameplay. You can't compare the rest of the trailer which is gameplay to the cutscenes from another game, that's not fair.

 

[Gholbine]

See that's the thing, that particular scene you're talking about is a cut-scene from GOW. The entire MGS4 trailer is a cut-scene. And the two are very much comparable. Now the other sections of the GOW trailer are gameplay. You can't compare the rest of the trailer which is gameplay to the cutscenes from another game, that's not fair.

No buddy, I'm not comparing that scene to the gameplay scenes. I'm comparing it to other cutscenes, and we've seen plenty, and they're all so far below that new scene that it might as well be a different game on a different system.

Epic have released "promotional" pictures of Gears of War at higher resolutions with insane amounts of AA, why not "promotional" video? It's not so hard to believe.

 

[expletive]

Gholbine, if we want to compare just cutscenes, we can download the ATI "Toy Story" tech demo from their website. I believe its already been confirmed on another thread the xenos could run that at 720p with ease.

There's no alien technology at work here guys. J. Allard or KK didnt travel to mars and come back with teh Xenos or teh cell... All the games will look great AND similar.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread "PS3, Holiday 2006"...

 

[Gholbine]

Gholbine, if we want to compare just cutscenes, we can download the ATI "Toy Story" tech demo from their website. I believe its already been confirmed on another thread the xenos could run that at 720p with ease.

I'm not talking about comparing "just cutscenes", I'm talking about comparing cutscenes within Gears of War, and the cutscene under scrutiny is unquestionably miles above the rest of them.

Don't get me wrong here. I know the Xenos is graphically very capable, an extremely powerful GPU. I just have my doubts about that particular cutscene, because it's so far above the other cutscenes, and running at a flawless 60 FPS (where the others struggle to reach or hold 30 FPS). It just smells of pure PR bullshit, and Epic does have a history of it, especially with Gears of War and their promotional screenshots.

Anyway you're right. This is pretty off-topic.

 

[expletive]

To clarify: I was conceding the point that software quality will most likely improve. However, I didn't actually intend to imply that it wouldn't, not even in my original post. I was merely illustrating the point that launch software seemed shoddy to me.

OK no probs, we agree, my misinterpretation.

I was floored by the original UE3 demo, and by GOW pre-E3, but yes, the UT2007 demo did "severely" mitigate my anticipation for GOW because aside from it being a graphical showcase, I think I'd rather play Ratchet and Clank.

I'm not connecting the dots here, the UE3 demo was not in-game or gameplay of any type yet it mitigated your anticipation of GoW because of GoW's gameplay? Not following this one...

Hyperbole aside, in trying to segment the "market" vs. the people who post on this board, I think you underestimate how many people have seen these demos on ign or gamespot. Not to mention how GOW does not compare all that favourably to the UT2007 demo, despite it being scripted and involving only two characters.

The E3 demos will have practically zero bearing come holiday 2006 when the PS3 launches. We will ahve been bombarded with SO much marketing and media, in all forms, by then that we wont even remember what was shown at E3 2005. And thats for the poeple that ahve actually taken the time to download the videos off the internet which imo is a very small smapling of the 120 or so (just a stab based on sales) million console owners.

You're right, speculation is fun. Especially the part where people chime in and discuss the validity of it all. Either way, my basic point is where x-platform titles are concerned, I doubt there are marketable differences between the differing versions. If you take issue with that, then by all means say so.

No problem, i think it was more of the speculative nature of the past being presented to back up the statement that i was originally responding to.

I'm simply going to disagree here. Just as how MGS2 went a long way to sell the PS2's graphical superiority over DC and prospective 3rd party library, MGS4 accomplishes the same goal. Like I said in my last post, MGS4 remaining on the Playstation platform is a way of signalling that other franchises will likely remain. Of course I don't know this to be true, and the next FF might be for the 360, although I'll believe that when I see it on a press release. So it's not just about one game, it's about market perception.

Yes MGS2 the game, with all its marketing on TV, and magazines, etc was a huge system seller for the PS2. You werent referring to MGS3 the game or the marketing campaign though, just the trailer from E3.

Err...that's not what I'm doing. My point is that "the premiere franchise of Sony" may actually have a competitor in PGR3, SO LONG AS MS MARKETS IT IN SUCH A FASHION as to be considered a competitor. You say PGR3 isn't the best racing game on 360, well what is? Forza? In which case, sure, MS could back a next-gen Forza against GT5.

I thought you were comparing PGR3 to MGS3 because of the way the paragraph ended up getting formatted so i missed that. BUt yeah most say Forza is the best on xbox so they will likely duke it out...

 

[expletive]

I'm not talking about comparing "just cutscenes", I'm talking about comparing cutscenes within Gears of War, and the cutscene under scrutiny is unquestionably miles above the rest of them.

Don't get me wrong here. I know the Xenos is graphically very capable, an extremely powerful GPU. I just have my doubts about that particular cutscene, because it's so far above the other cutscenes, and running at a flawless 60 FPS (where the others struggle to reach or hold 30 FPS). It just smells of pure PR bullshit, and Epic does have a history of it, especially with Gears of War and their promotional screenshots.

Anyway you're right. This is pretty off-topic.

Maybe that scene jsut happens to be deceptively low poly count and when youre only using 1/6th of the CPU power on the console, those scenes smooth out right quick?

 

[Jov]

Most new televisions sold are under $300 in price and 27" or larger in screensize. HDTV won't take 50% of the market until you can get an HDTV the same size for the same price.

Disagree! A lot of consumers don't just look at prices, but things like feature sets, quality and style. For those that can afford some form of entertainment, the majority will unlikely have such mindset.

So according to your theory, LCD/TFT monitors will also fail to take off until they are the same price and resolution of traditional CRT monitors.

But that's won't make a format take off. That's not nearly enough sales.

The reason DVD took off like it did was because everyone wanted to replace their entire VHS collection with DVD movies instead. The picture quality was far far better, it worked on every TV set, and the movies never wear out. There was a large demand for the older movies as well as new ones, and that's what pushed the format.

If you rely on current movie sales only for HD movie formats then it's going to take a lot longer because most people tend to only buy a couple of new release DVD movies per year, rather than replace a collection of 20+ movies in a year or two. Now split those sales between 2 formats and it will take even longer.

Especially considering most people won't invest in one until one format becomes a clear leader in the stores.

So you're saying old movies drives the DVD sales? I am not a movie collector, but if there are new features of a classic movie in HD, I might consider getting it, but according to your assumptions there should be no new format to improve on the existing movies as most people already got what they want.