PS3 Endless Saga image..
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MasaC said:
Well I consdier a game something I play . Not something I watch. So it will have to be your first option .
For all we know this can be doing a heavnly sword. Running at 2 or 3 frames for this cut scene and then thrown into a video program and pushed to 60fps (or 30 depending on the video)
I don't belive its in game graphics knowing its a mmorpg .
jvd said:
Well..using that same judgement. Then anything Project Gotham 3 related should be downplayed because all of them can't be in game (since your not playing it but watching a replay of what you just did). All those dynamic angles arn not part of the gameplay (just like in GTA). Same thing in Metal Gear. But this IS part of the game and as l-b stated this CAN'T be CGI (since its not at the same level visualy as a mediocore CGI would look). Look back at E3 where CGI was rampant and compare it to this....
By what definition of MMO? I accept GW isn't a true MMO but it's system of dividing up the world into smaller sections could be applied to a true MMO. And a hundred characters on screen wouldn't need that level of detail, so you'd have that overall quality scaled down to what's on screen.jvd said:
You seem to be of the opinion that it's impossible to scale graphical requirements in MMOs; that the fidelity of a single isolated charcter represents the fidelity of every character up to a thousand on screen at once.
jvd said:
I applies to any game. I could have done that in all the PGR3 threads but I didn't...because I understood that thats the level of visuals that the game will be pumping out. Same thing for this thread...if the company says its ingame..then its ingame until otherwise noted (throught the company...or finding out yourself through reviews or getting the game yourself). To outright say its CGI or not ingame because your not playing it (and not giving any valid reasons why you say it) then it would seem that a large percentile of games arn't "ingame"...the only ones that could be considered "ingame" are Kameo, Call of Duty 2 and any other game that was being manipulated with a controller (instead of being shown as a video).
EDIT: I'm not going to keep retorting back, simply because thats what kills a thread...so the statement above I feel gets my point across.
jvd:
Well, as you've probably figured out, I define in game screenshots as still captures of graphics rendered in realtime on the game engine. Games are something I play but games are also something I watch. You know, like a cut scene or a replay of some sort.
To me "in game" represents something that's rendered in realtime while you're playing the game whether that's an interactive scene or not. Pre-rendered CGI on the other hand is something that's created long before you even booted up the game and often done on entirely different hardware than what's running your game.
I agree that it would be better if they announced at what framerate that realtime shot was taken as it would give us a better idea of what kind of performance the game engine in its current state is capable of.
Well, as you've probably figured out, I define in game screenshots as still captures of graphics rendered in realtime on the game engine. Games are something I play but games are also something I watch. You know, like a cut scene or a replay of some sort.
To me "in game" represents something that's rendered in realtime while you're playing the game whether that's an interactive scene or not. Pre-rendered CGI on the other hand is something that's created long before you even booted up the game and often done on entirely different hardware than what's running your game.
I agree that it would be better if they announced at what framerate that realtime shot was taken as it would give us a better idea of what kind of performance the game engine in its current state is capable of.
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To keep argueing with any of you is a waste of my time.
I've already explained why I belive this is not in game nor realtime .
If you guys feel diffrently that is fine .
Your right some are not all in game views. Some are though. Your right that it can be just reply mode. I never once claimed it couldn't be . So why bring this up ? If you need to prove to yourself that this can be real time in a mmorpg please calm down and stop . If you want to believe this shot is real time with no indication of what realtime is and if you will ever actually see it in game then that is fine . Believe it . I never said you shouldn't . I said I don't .
You seem to never have played a real mmorpg . Even in a game like eq2 which has diffrent instances of zones you can still while in a zone encounter other real people that aren't in your group and change your groups set up and people with out having to go back to a hub .
As for scaling . Your not going to be able to zoom into a character and have that detail and then zoom right back out and have hundreds of characters + monsters with out droping frames nad having stuttering .
They have only said its realtime. They have not said you will see it in game . I've said its either cgi , a in game cut scene or render to specs video .
If you don't agree that is fine. I'm not going to sit here and argue .
What is in game on the xbox 360 is as followed . Gears of war , kameo , full auto , dead rising , pdz . I do not know of others that have been played real time but I may be wrong and there could be more .
I'm sorry I don't believe a screen shot that says real time shot . IF you want to believe it that is fine .
That is fine . I have said I don't expect it in game . I def know we wont see it while playing. It may be a cut scene , cgi or rendered to spec . But i don't believe it will be game play. I even have my doubts its even a cut scene . Which I have said from the begning .
Sony fans want to make me out to be the villian because I don't agree and that is fine . If they need to do that to defend the game let them .
I'm done responding . I have given my opinon and my reasons and I have said lets wait till they show more of it . They will have to show more in the next few months as the system is releasing in 7ish months some where in the world most likely . So i would expect if there were games that looked this good real time sony will be showing them off around ms's launch date
I've already explained why I belive this is not in game nor realtime .
If you guys feel diffrently that is fine .
Your right some are not all in game views. Some are though. Your right that it can be just reply mode. I never once claimed it couldn't be . So why bring this up ? If you need to prove to yourself that this can be real time in a mmorpg please calm down and stop . If you want to believe this shot is real time with no indication of what realtime is and if you will ever actually see it in game then that is fine . Believe it . I never said you shouldn't . I said I don't .
You seem to never have played a real mmorpg . Even in a game like eq2 which has diffrent instances of zones you can still while in a zone encounter other real people that aren't in your group and change your groups set up and people with out having to go back to a hub .
As for scaling . Your not going to be able to zoom into a character and have that detail and then zoom right back out and have hundreds of characters + monsters with out droping frames nad having stuttering .
They have only said its realtime. They have not said you will see it in game . I've said its either cgi , a in game cut scene or render to specs video .
If you don't agree that is fine. I'm not going to sit here and argue .
What is in game on the xbox 360 is as followed . Gears of war , kameo , full auto , dead rising , pdz . I do not know of others that have been played real time but I may be wrong and there could be more .
I'm sorry I don't believe a screen shot that says real time shot . IF you want to believe it that is fine .
That is fine . I have said I don't expect it in game . I def know we wont see it while playing. It may be a cut scene , cgi or rendered to spec . But i don't believe it will be game play. I even have my doubts its even a cut scene . Which I have said from the begning .
Sony fans want to make me out to be the villian because I don't agree and that is fine . If they need to do that to defend the game let them .
I'm done responding . I have given my opinon and my reasons and I have said lets wait till they show more of it . They will have to show more in the next few months as the system is releasing in 7ish months some where in the world most likely . So i would expect if there were games that looked this good real time sony will be showing them off around ms's launch date
Whether the lots-of-characters on screen are other human players in an MMO or AI players ina single player game, the limiting factor for the graphics are whether they can keep up with the detail for the number of chars on screen. You have said that this isn't possible because this game is an MMO, as though being an MMO slows down the graphics no-end that lots of chars can't be supported. Customized character only need a few kb of data to provide facial graphics, hairdo, clothes etc. The argument that because this game is an MMO means this level of graphics are not attainable seems a flawed argument. If this level of graphics are unattainable with lots of chars on screen that's a limitation of the hardware regardless of online or not.
Who's saying the game doesn't have stuttering and pop-in when in highly populated areas? And as for your reasons, it would be nice is you gave TECHNICAL reasons as to why you think a degree of visual scaling of this calibre is not possible. What's the limiting factor? What's the reason this could not be a grab of a player's character as appears in game, but to keep the frame rate up other characters, never seen as close, have less detail? Why are these visuals not possible in an MMO but are possible in a single player game that has lots of characters on screen?jvd said:
mckmas8808
Legend
jvd why not answer this question by Shifty?
I think it's a great question. If 3,000 characters can be on screen in HS with great graphics, then why can't this Endless Saga game have 1000 characters with that quality of detail?
I think it's a great question. If 3,000 characters can be on screen in HS with great graphics, then why can't this Endless Saga game have 1000 characters with that quality of detail?
mckmas8808 said:
Because in sp games the developer can control the amount of characters on screen at once. IN a mmorpg you can not .
Just the other day in swg I was in a group and we were 8 people and there were 48 grunds we were fighting . Then another group got a mission right next to us and there were another 48 grunds + another 8 players . Then there were housing and other random creatures .
None of this is controlled by a dev .
This is the reason why mmorpgs have allways lagged behind other genres . This is why eq2 is the best looking mmorpg released and it lags way behind in both performance and visual quality compared to the fps's of the time (doom 3 , half life 2) and other genres .
MechanizedDeath
Regular
Seeing a game like Frame City Killers, which employs a GTA-style city covering large areas, with lots of people, there's no reason the final product can't look this good. Being an MMORPG means nothing. If you can use LOD, you can pull this off. Shifty Geezer explained it well enough. Lots of next-gen games will sport a ton of people on screen. The ones furthest from screen will have the simplest models, scaling progressively to the foreground where you have the most detail.
The argument that the dev can control the number of characters on screen is meaningless. Maybe...just maybe, the Endless Saga coders can set an upper bound on the number of characters they want to support in a given area at once. Beyond that, the framerate just starts to chug. So, if you could manage to get enough people beyond that upper bound, you'll just have framerate problems. But that sort of situation will be the exception, not the rule.
Bah, Shifty's explanation is still way better.
Heavenly Sword shows that you can have a lot of models on screen. And through the use of LOD, you can conceivably have grand battles in an MMORPG without totally killing your framerate. If they say that's a realtime shot, I hope it's because it's what they're targeting as a baseline for the final product. The screen looks good, but it's still not the best thing we've seen so far. So, I'd hope it was doable. PEACE.
The argument that the dev can control the number of characters on screen is meaningless. Maybe...just maybe, the Endless Saga coders can set an upper bound on the number of characters they want to support in a given area at once. Beyond that, the framerate just starts to chug. So, if you could manage to get enough people beyond that upper bound, you'll just have framerate problems. But that sort of situation will be the exception, not the rule.
Bah, Shifty's explanation is still way better.
Heavenly Sword shows that you can have a lot of models on screen. And through the use of LOD, you can conceivably have grand battles in an MMORPG without totally killing your framerate. If they say that's a realtime shot, I hope it's because it's what they're targeting as a baseline for the final product. The screen looks good, but it's still not the best thing we've seen so far. So, I'd hope it was doable. PEACE.
